Apologies to all who, like me, tired of the circular ‘songs debate’ on CQN many years ago. Back in 2011, when Celtic had a similar action from Uefa to defend as they now face, I predicted a slow train wreck:
“The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
“I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
“Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.”
A few weeks later I wrote:
“Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
“While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.”
Since then:
Uefa and the SPL have reprimanded Celtic.
Efforts have been made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which mostly fail.
Despite pleas from Neil Lennon, or earlier from Jock Stein, some insist on signing political songs. As Jock and Neil were ignored it remains an act of vanity for lesser mortals to try to convince others to desist.
Charges have been brought for expressing sentiment similar to that in Flower of Scotland.
Celtic have not, should not and cannot try to mitigate IRA chanting or banners as inconsequential. It is not inconsequential, Jock Stein knew it a long time before the SNP government. Fill your boots on debating why it has consequences below, it’s a huge intellectual topic, you’ll enjoy it, then you’ll get bored of it and move on.
If you want the opportunity to have a Debating Society on this, there is space on the comments section, knock yourself out. I’ve been through the songs debate often enough to know some of our community feel it is incumbent upon them to sing IRA songs at football games. Pointing out the words of Jock Stein, or the inevitable conclusion to this singing, or how things have developed in Ireland, will not change this perspective.
That’s the thing about slow train wrecks, nothing can stop them. It’s more productive to plan on how to deal with the aftermath.
Congratulations to the Bucketeers who raised over £26k for the costs of mounting an appropriate legal defence to the Dam Square five. This is a stunning amount of money raised, which demonstrates the strength of feeling among the support.
[calameo code=000390171e05b9b63a832 lang=en page=38 hidelinks=1 width=100% height=500]
CQN Annual, get it while it’s hot:
1,061 Comments- Pages:
- «
- 1
- ...
- 21
- 22
- 23
- 24
- 25
- 26
- 27
- 28
- »
monteblanco
It has to be all of them of course. :)
Kev j,
Having seen you at the Q&A in Blantyre I can only assume that you love a wind up.
Your use of the word ‘plastic’ in regards to the board is usually found on hun sites. If you want your posts taken seriously of which you do make a few fine points…stop the plastic pash mate. HH….that is Hail Hail… Not H…o H…o ;)
Twisty – haven’t spoken to GL2 much lately, but he’s hoping to take a table at CQTEN if he can get enough local CQNers.
No doubt he’s still out running, pounding the streets of Greenock & Gourock.
Inverclyde Council will not be pleased when they see the repair bill….!
Hope the Twisty family have taken a table at CQTEN as well?!!
T4
Can’t really agree that we would have won the ECWC in 84/85. We never did much in Europe in the 80s or 90s. My guess is that we may have managed to reach the semis and gone out on away goals or penalties.
Added to that, it was a very good Everton side that won it. I have always wondered how they would have fared in Europe had Heysel not happened.
I’m surprised the board haven’t taken action as yet on 111. I suspect after the living wage fiasco they don’t want to agitate a further, imo a large section of our support by banning the GB.
This is the correct course to take, we’ve a few weeks before our next home match so hopefully all sides will quietly sit down and sort something out.
Sunday can’t come quick enough for me, football will be a welcome distraction from this storm in a teacup.
MEA CULPA 1107
In your previous post,
“I don’t think any wars have been won by soldiers shooting themselves in the foot.”
A very valid point. I made what I thought similar,in that wars aren’t won by doing the enemy’s bidding.
Even as MONTEBLANCO was making his point about the SOUL of the club,I was mailing a CQNer about that very thing. This fella has no emotional attachment to the club,he wasn’t born a Celtic fan. He has no Irish or Scottish blood,and has lived in neither country.
He has been posting more often in the last few days though. I’ll betcha that’s because he is concerned at an increasing desire by our “betters” to be less what we were,and more what they want.
Well,I know why this fella became a Celtic supporter. And I know why I am one. And one of the reasons Robert Kelly called us
MORE THAN JUST A CLUB
is because it’s
MORE THAN JUST ABOUT THE FOOTBALL.
And you ask,what enemy?
Ffs.
BRTH,
Fergus needed to get billionaires on board literally. We were not just up against the huns but the BOS crooks that are still running the country and that is what we are still up against. I believe that DD bought into Celtic as he believed he could get us into the EPL. Since that particular road was closed he lost interest. In his conservative mind its all about attracting like minded investors. That is why the club is ran as it is and that seems to be his only concern. I have stated before we dont need billionaires anymore especially now that most of them bust the country. He either has to let go or pursue a new agenda to a bigger league. If we are not currently blackmailing the criminals who are running the game with exposure then he needs to sell up and move on. Its not just about the bank account. Not Celtic anyway.
HH
ANNOAN[ from yesterday] – Peter Green was born Peter Greenbaum.
As you will know better than me baum is German for tree, so you weren’t far off when you called the great man Peter Greenwood.
I will be very,very upset if Gordon Duffield Smith claims to have played guitar with Peter Green.
I think we should get rid of DD and bring in someone from Malaysia or the States.
Change the team colours to blue and change the club name to Glasgow City Tigers.
No?!
T4
winning captains
11:04 on29 November, 2013
We should never have played the replay match. Then as now it was all about the money.
HH
DBBIA.
Smith WAS Mr Wonderful.
BMCUWP -first LP I ever bought, from a boy at school who sadly got murdered in Sanquhar.
‘Lazy Poker Blues’ [ which I don’t think is a song about kindling] is one of my favourite choons of all time.
medtim:
From the Catholic Herald:
regards the book you mention.
Frank Longford “SOMEWHERE, somehow, sometime Ireland caught me and I knew that my future was wrapped up with hers”. I have used this quotation about myself before now. It could be used with much more justice about my elder brother of Gate Theatre fame. It is tempting to apply it to the extraordinary subject of this enthralling book.
“Chink” Dorman-Smith’s background was authentically Irish. His father was authentically Irish, descended from a Gaelic chieftain. He was brought up in Ireland and eventually inherited an impressive house there.
After the war he returned to Ireland, changed his name to the Gaelic form Dorman-O’Gowan and dabbled in Irish politics. He lectured against partition in the United States and lent his estate as a training ground for the official IRA, not to be confused with the latter-day Provos. His funeral, in Ireland, was thoroughly ecumenical, his religious allegiance having varied throughout his life.
But from the evidence assembled here, with plenty of sympathy and just as much candour, he was a unique figure who could never be pigeonholed. No one throughout his military career seems to have doubted his brilliance.
He obtained a thousand marks out of a thousand when entering the staff college. One of his later appreciations is still used as a model there. More and more it is coming to be recognised that the decisive check to Rommel was provided by the first battle of Alamein before the arrival of Montgomery.
The first Alamein is being increasingly referred to as one of the turning points of the war and Dorman-Smith, Auchinleck’s staff officer, is rightly credited with being the brains behind it. But Auchinleck was sacked and Dorman-Smith along with him. The latter’s career spiralled downwards until he was literally pushed out of the army.
Awe Naw – we had to play the game at Old Trafford or UEFA would have hit us with an even bigger punishment. I remember the anger and sense of injustice after the Rapid Vienna antics and really wanted to see us thump them in the replay.
We should have gone quite far in the tournament that year.
It was a grim trip back North after the game. I can also remember sitting in a pub in Byres Road while the closed doors game was being played against Atletico Madrid. Europe over for another season! :-(
T4
DBBIA
Very interesting. I never knew that. One of my favourite guitarists ever. He was a master of everything. I saw the BBC4 documentary on him and have to say he came across as a great guy. Undamaged but maybe they were being kind to him regarding what they showed. He was a tim in spirit for sure. I love his playing. Him and Jimi are untouchable. Clapton too ….but I will never give up trying. Thanks for the interesting piece of info.
HH
BMCUWP
not sure I’m picking your post up correctly re. MONTEBLANCO.
Are you suggesting he is not a Tim?
MWD
tommytwiststommyturns calling for Dam Justice
10:02 on
29 November, 2013
Mea Culpa – “I thought there was supposed to be some sort of fans liaison officer after the last GB vs Celtic Board crisis.
What exactly is the remit of this officer?”
Basically, to get shafted by all concerned! I wouldn’t have JP Taylor’s job for any money.
Either the GB or the club would hang him out to dry at some point. I don’t know all the facts, so can’t state categorically that the GB did that to him on Tuesday.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Like you I am not sure to what extent JPT brokered a deal to prevent 111 being disbanded.
But if he did and a key component was ignored by displaying that banner then the GB will have lost all right to be trusted by Celtic and put JPT in an invidious position.
On all fronts Tuesday’s banner appears to be a colossal error of judgement unless whoever took the decision to display the banner can show no agreement was broken.
If not they (or he/she) have lost the GB the special consideration they have been afforded because of the good stuff they bring to the party.
.
GreenBrigader to Son: ‘Back in the Day we were Voted the Best Singers in Paradise’..
Son: ‘Aye Da..Ye Told us..’
GreenBrigader to Son: ‘Back in the Day our Tifos were the Best in the World’..
Son: ‘Aye Ye told Us’..
GreenBrigader to Son: ‘Back in the Day We Did Not have Larsson on the Back of our Shirts..We had Bobby Sands’..
Son..’Aye..A Know.. That is Why we Support ‘The Rangers’..’
Summa of OurChildrenWillBeTheRangersSupportersCSC
Celt for life,
I just received my annual half an hour ago, I probably ordered around the same time as yourself.
Takes me back to my youth and waiting for Christmas time in order to get the victor annual…memory’s.
TTTT
I never went. I was protesting ;-)
We should have taken the 5 year ban then. No debate. Sent out a signal to UEFA we wont cooperate with cheating. It would make things easier today and set an example. It was an apalling decision. I was pissed off at those who bought a ticket and went and formed a big part of my psyche during the celts for change period.
HH
Not a lot of people know this but…
A chance meeting and improvised jam at a rehearsal studio in Brighton in 1980 between Johnny Marr, Gordon, Patti and Jimmy was the conceptual seed that grew to become the Smiths.
Gordon bailed out when, thinking “Smith must score”, it emerged that Patti preferred Fred to him, had knocked back the Blue Oyster Cult and joined the Green movement.
Aw Naw
“If we are not currently blackmailing the criminals who are running the game with exposure then he needs to sell up and move on.”
I hope we are.
ANNOAN- I saw him at Ayr Gaiety [!] after his comeback from his mental health problems.
it was great to see him playing at all, but clearly a lot of the fire had gone out of him.
Awe Naw last game my old man went to with me , cheatin bassas, I lost my earing when we scored the third goal, could have gone to the final against Everton would have been a cracker. My Da is in hospital today for an op on his hip he had a fall should be ok. Memories like rapid eh what could have been. Lookin forward to next year if we get CL could make some ripples. We are heading in the right direction, build a team to rock. Hail Hail Neil Lennon.
BMCUW
Thanks for reposting that as I would have surely missed it.
Sandman,
Great post and echo’s some of my own twitter comments on Wednseday night.
The one which seemed to cause the most consternation was stating that not one person had mentioned William Wallace also beiong a part of that banner display, and wondering why that was?
People just simply don’t want to see the point of the banner, and are singing along to the tune of the GB “making this political”. I suppose it is political when you and your muckers are being dragged from bed and lifted in the middle of the night because someone somewhere found a song you sang once at a football match offensive, and the Scottish Government decided that offending a bigot just isn’t on, cause the bigot might get upset, and hey, we could do with evening up some of these arrest figures anyway.
The fact that the songs can only upset a bigot is neither here nor there.
Free Nelson Mandella indeed.
The GB have split our support since the Poppy Banner. Rightly or wrongly, they have created a division. Some love them, some think they are above their station. Too me, it was the board who split the support on the subject though. If we’re to beleive that teh GB knew what they were doing on Tuesday night and had calculated the response to the display, are we also supposed to beleive that teh board didn’t know what they were getting into by allowing the Poppy on the jersey 3 years running and expected no response?
I think the GB are great, and as Kev said above before going “off oot”, they’re better to watch than some of the stuff we’ve watched on the pitch this season.
I don’t quite get the bit where they’re above themselves, or think they’re better than the support.
If you don’t like them, don’t join in with them, or allow one small section of the ground to be the ones who are driving the conversation.
Or better still, when young lads are being lifted out their beds for singing songs that we’ve all sung, maybe the rest of the support should back “Our Own” instead of turning on them and looking down our noses at them.
They wouldn’t need to produce banners to keep us talking about their kith and kin being banged up, if we weren’t so easily distracted by a new board member at the Bigot Dome, worrying about what a suit in UEFA might say about us, what an opposition player might say about how great we are, or god forbid, we might miss PL making a joke about the huns.
Big deal we got fined, take it off Pistol Pete’s bonus cause I’m not sure he deserves it anyway. Not his fault he’s paid the salary, but his bonus could cover the Living wage if they really wanted to discuss it.
Some of our support needs to dry their eyes with regards to a UEFA sanction. I don’t care what UEFA think, when young mens lives are being ruined. The Celtic Board should be strong enough to stand against any of these sanctions, and should be standing up for our fans.
I’ve had enough of them apparently holding their tongues and waiting for others to shoot themselves in the foot, cause the only ones being hurt are young lads who we should be watching out for instead of allowing them to be thrown to the wolves of the Scottish police force and the SMSM.
Think I’ve gone on enough now, but would like others to remember that we’ve all messed up in the past. The least we can expect though is our own family to stand behind us.
Some in our support love the “more than a club” ethos, but don’t actually know what that is supposed to mean.
Stand up for the Green Brigade, they’re one of us!
Mucker
Green and Grey Brigade CSC
taurangabhoy
11:51 on29 November, 2013
I think Everton deserved it. They were a great team then. I was in the Rangers end that night. Which was a rare experience for me attending matches at Celtic park
HH
Kilbowie Kelt
11:10 on 29 November, 2013
‘If Ireland was to secure its freedom at the expense of the liberty of other peoples, it would deserve for itself all the execration she herself has poured out on tyranny throughout the ages.’
Terence McSwinney
Moonbeams WD. Kano 1000 \o/ Supporting Neil Lennon 100%. Champions. C’mon Wee Oscar.
11:42 on
29 November, 2013
No. Cannot be. I think he was referring to the other CQNer who is as much part of the soul in spite of not coming directly from traditional paths (parents etc).
In any case Monte is as a mad as a brush Tim. The sort of guy, if you were into putting ferrets down your trousers to get close to a fight, but were out of ferrets, you would use instead.
A spokesman for Gordon Smith has strenuously denied that he played on ‘Give Ireland Back to the Irish’.
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS ………FC not PLC
You have another mail.
Wee photo of the striscioni in yesterday’s La Repubblica — along side a few words re Uefa investigating the striscioni re Bobby Sands ,ex IRA activist displayed by Celtic fans .
Big report re Italian Ultras published .300 plus groups associated with Serie A and Serie B clubs. Some are extreme left , some are extreme right, some are anarchist , some think the politicos are dinosaurs who should get to ****, some are we like violence lulus..etc etc
Some of Lazio’s Ultras have been busy in Warsaw —– media claiming that @ 150 have been detained.
.
I was at The 85′ Final in De Kuip Stadd..
Celtic would Not have Beat Everton..
Summa
Afternoon Timland from a sunny hun free mountain valley.
JPT tweeted yesterday that nobody will be banned for the banner, and political banners are no longer permitted.
HH
MOONBEAMS WET DREAMS
Hardly.
MONTEBLANCO wasn’t the fella I referred to as having no emotional attachment to the club.
That description was for the recipient of my mail. I apologise for the confusion.
The point I was attempting to make is that I was mailing a CQNer with no emotional attachment to the club-no Irish or Scottish connection whatsoever-about the soul of the club,even as MONTEBLANCO mentioned that point on here.
MEA CULPA said that wars weren’t won by soldiers shooting themselves in the foot. To which I replied nor were they won by those soldiers doing the enemy’s bidding.
He replied-what enemy? Ffs.
If Robert Kelly was right about us being mo re than just a club,then it’s more than just about the fitba’. And that means having a social conscience,wearing your heart on your sleeve,railing against injustice.
Or we can all settle down to our prawn sandwiches and rustle our sweetie-papers.
Sorry,bud. I won’t be leaving me at the turnstile. I’ll be taking me into the game.
And no,I do not doubt the Celtic credentials of MONTEBLANCO.
But I’ll bet yer sorry you asked now,haha?
He did though record a cover of “Because the Knight”
The Enigma Of Frank Ryan
Auldheid
If we are not we are playing the wrong game. I hope that the highly visible Platini invite a few years back was the beginning of that salvo. If Platini is not championing FFP anymore he needs exposed. I believe the ECA to be an obstacle to this and hope that Karl Heinz Rumenigge gets entwined in the Uli Hoeness swiss bank account scandal. Tin hat on but DD is our only hope here as you need to be able to bring a lot of influence to the table and perceived power to ilicit change. I would love to have been a fly on the wall during their exchanges. A lot of hope in this post but I will never lose the faith with our support. See Old trafford game ;-)
HH