Apologies to all who, like me, tired of the circular ‘songs debate’ on CQN many years ago. Back in 2011, when Celtic had a similar action from Uefa to defend as they now face, I predicted a slow train wreck:
“The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
“I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
“Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.”
A few weeks later I wrote:
“Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
“While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.”
Since then:
Uefa and the SPL have reprimanded Celtic.
Efforts have been made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which mostly fail.
Despite pleas from Neil Lennon, or earlier from Jock Stein, some insist on signing political songs. As Jock and Neil were ignored it remains an act of vanity for lesser mortals to try to convince others to desist.
Charges have been brought for expressing sentiment similar to that in Flower of Scotland.
Celtic have not, should not and cannot try to mitigate IRA chanting or banners as inconsequential. It is not inconsequential, Jock Stein knew it a long time before the SNP government. Fill your boots on debating why it has consequences below, it’s a huge intellectual topic, you’ll enjoy it, then you’ll get bored of it and move on.
If you want the opportunity to have a Debating Society on this, there is space on the comments section, knock yourself out. I’ve been through the songs debate often enough to know some of our community feel it is incumbent upon them to sing IRA songs at football games. Pointing out the words of Jock Stein, or the inevitable conclusion to this singing, or how things have developed in Ireland, will not change this perspective.
That’s the thing about slow train wrecks, nothing can stop them. It’s more productive to plan on how to deal with the aftermath.
Congratulations to the Bucketeers who raised over £26k for the costs of mounting an appropriate legal defence to the Dam Square five. This is a stunning amount of money raised, which demonstrates the strength of feeling among the support.
[calameo code=000390171e05b9b63a832 lang=en page=38 hidelinks=1 width=100% height=500]
CQN Annual, get it while it’s hot:
1,061 Comments- Pages:
- «
- 1
- ...
- 20
- 21
- 22
- 23
- 24
- 25
- 26
- 27
- 28
- »
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS ………FC not PLC
You have mail.
Good morning friends and a Big Hoopy Friday from a drizzly, cold and very very windy East Kilbride.
Cannae wait for the game on Sunday
Depressed with that dross on Tuesday and even more so with the internecine punch up re the GB
A decent performance on Sunday …a few goals …set us up for the remainder of season
Failure on Sunday is inconceivable…we’d be treading water until the end of the season
And…..for those in the last year of their contract …sign up or you don’t get played …
more inconviences
Nelson mandella
Yasser Arafat
tamrabam
Great post!
If only you were that intelligent in real life!!! :-)
MWD
Tamrabam
Interesting and moving contribution …of which I’m in agreement with
For me, the GB broke the tournament rules deliberately on Tuesday …for that they were wrong …nothing else
If this shower of bangers at the SFA try to take us to task re the tifo at the Aberdeen game …then the board had better be ready to fight our corner …strenuously …anything less will not do
I’m all but done with the board thro their dealings with sevco/ Ogilvie etc…failure to protect us on the above would be a bridge too far
If it were ‘up the Ra’ or ‘f*** UEFA’ I could more readily understand the invective.
This was a rather clever exposure of the hypocritical use of nationalist figures in the context of legislation which discriminates.
If Celtic fans are being too political in exposing such hypocrisy we have arrived at a very sad, sanitised place.
As to being the wrong message at the wrong time I personally think this more applicable to the critics than the protesters. On this issue, far more than previous occasions, the GB are on the money. If an image of Bobby Sands so offends, regardless of the accompanying message, we are indeed in a very sad place; only establishment images and politics are allowed. F*** that, to coin a phrase…
SFTB’s post last night gave me food for thought on the issue of what we sing but, with respect, I don’t think his call for restraint can and should apply to the right to expose and protest against hypocrisy and discrimination of football fans. The obvious place to make that point is at a football game…
Oh, and if breaking UEFA rules counter indicate such reasoned protest then, f*** them as well…
Tamrabam:
Great post.
WWC
I’d rather the GB had produced Tuesdays tifo at an SPL game …..in which case I’d be expecting nae demanding our board tell the SFA to GTF if the tried sanctioning us
UEFA …for all it’s many sins …are clear on political expression at matches …wrong match …wrong tournament …not wrong place
just for info for all middle east tims
hearts v celtic on al jazeera sports
(can we mention al jazeera? or are they a terrorist tv outfit?)
WWC
The CL is The Holy Grail ….we can’t F them …
Their tournament …their rules
Yet more inconveniences – a timely news story from this morning………
Known in several former colonies as “Operation Legacy”, Whitehall set out a list of the types of material it wanted removed, including anything which “might embarrass members of the police, military forces, public servants (such as police agents or informers)”. Once “dirty” documents had been removed the remaining “clean” material was passed to a new strata of administrators overseeing independence processes who were deliberately not told about the sifting process.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/revealed-how-british-empires-dirty-secrets-went-up-in-smoke-in-the-colonies-8971217.html
Tamrabam 6:57. Well said.
MWD
:-)
who are you? ya bassa?
dont let on that Im an eejit, some folks still dont know that!
Murdochbhoy
timely indeed, yet ignored by so many
PJ
“A reasonable discussion with you” I had to read that twice, lol, I know you have a very big opinion of yourself, but to be honest you have a long way to go if you think you could have a discussion with me, what would be the reason? C’mon now, honestly, mirror mirror on the wall……….
Pfayr:
If the rules say no politics they are inevitably discriminatory rules but I take your point.
If that had been the main response on here I’d feel us far more reasoned.
Some of the invective is astonishing, misplaced and down right shocking…
UEFA doesn’t like any politics, so how come we had to look at them bloody poppys the last years?
Let the people sing!
CQN annual, anyone any idea how long you wait after purchase?
Purchased on 19th Nov, should it be here by now?
Know you we should just let Uefa and the SFA and the MSM and anyone else who feels like it grab us by the hair and then knee us around the body until they grow old and tired and we should just accept that their opionion and only their opinion matters, and then we should just lay down like good little croppy boys
or not
Oglach
07:04 on
29 November, 2013
Just an anti-Brit. tirade.
No relevance to the Bobby Sands and H block banner whatsoever.
No relevance to Celtic whatsoever,just like the banners.
They`re nothing to do with Celtic.
You can be as anti-Brit as you wish.I may even agree with you.
Why,however,do you then support a British team?
Finally,the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Thank you.
The I.R.A. of that period Irish were, as I said,friends of Hitler and the Nazi warmongers.
You agree.
What`s the issue?
Perhaps you would like to inform the young lads of the G.B.who obviously need a history lesson.
De Valera was neutral when the decent nations of the world were fighting Hitler.
To the eternal shame of the Free State,as it was then known.
Tamrabam
Very well said ….
PF
Spot on
macjay1 for neil lennon
07:57 on 29 November, 2013
————————————-
Baloney.
Macjay:
“You can be as anti-Brit as you wish.I may even agree with you”
Forgive me if I harbour some doubt…
(joking, not digging bud!)
Well, it looks like comet ison has bitten the dust at the back side of the sun.
If it does make a miraculous come back will it be the same comet and will it retain it’s history?
Tend to stay out of the songs and banners debate
Tend to focus on the park myself
4 weeks till transfer window opens
What do we do?
We will have pukki stokes, Balde bangura and Sammi as strikers
We must look at the cost of wages of these players and the return they give us for the wages they pick up
What is that? 60k per year?
We must look at shifting them out and releasing funds
Surely we can offer someone a substantial salary to come in as a 1st eleven player. None of our strikers are that at the moment
Time to change the policy
Reduce quantity and bring in one quality striker
Top of the morning to you all from a clear-skied, breezy, autumnal, Fife.
I have updated my PE01491 blog with a para entitled: “Kenny MacAskill a classic case of someone with a vested interest”, which deals with Kenny’s apparent love of the odd Orange ditty or three.
http://www.tomminogue.com/blog7.php/petition-01491
My thoughts on the way we seem to be heading into a police state, where the police decide which laws we need are published 22 November (in edited form) in the Scotsman thus:
Police in a spin
The short answer to Chief Superintendent David O’Connor’s glowing tribute to Police Scotland (Letters, 19 November) is the Mandy Rice-Davies one: “He would say that, wouldn’t he?”
While Mr O’Connor lauds the achievements of Police Scotland, in the past eight months I have felt compelled to travel to Glasgow for a rally and demonstration in support of those who were “kettled”, then arrested after gathering in Glasgow’s Gallowgate to peacefully protest against the police’s over-zealous implementation of the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act.
I have witnessed police intimidation and brutality in many countries abroad, but never expected to see scenes like the Gallowgate “kettling” at home.
In my opinion, Scotland is heading down a dangerous path, where the Scottish police service demand new laws, giving them draconian powers. Once these are given, they create special enforcement units to enforce these laws.
There is then a need to get arrests in numbers commensurate with the resources allocated, and so the police go to extraordinary lengths to get convictions.
To offset their excesses we then see police public relations offensives, featuring photos of Chief Constable Sir Stephen House looking purposeful, aided by sound-bites and statistics such as those trotted out by Mr O’Connor, who boasts that although Police Scotland is only eight months old, violent crime has plummeted 14 per cent compared with last year and “public confidence and reassurance is high”. Who is he kidding?
Rather than engage in spin, senior Police Scotland figures would be better served by sacking their PR people, stepping back from the political world, and going quietly about their work.
Like children, senior officers should be seen and not heard.
############################
That was my way of protesting about the OB Act.
The GB sought to make their objections in a different way.
I see their point and just wish they had made it in a domestic game.
H.H.
Interesting points being made about the GB banner, should it have been shown at a domestic or CL game.
UEFA apparently have a no politics rule. Is it the case then that the SPFL/SFA dont have a no politics rule?
some folks only criticism of the banner is not the point be made by the banner, but rather the fact that it was made in a UEFA game
If the SFA however subsequently introduced a no politics rule too, would you feel that the banner should not be shown doestically?
i remember banners in a few football stadiums (including Celtic) in support of the relatives who were demanding inquiries into the Hillsborough cover up- surely those banners were political? They were aimed at persuading politicians to re open and re investigate the issues.
The subsequent re investigation, which came around after politicians agreed to public demand showed them to be correct.
The only thing incorrect would have been to disqualifiy the banners in the first place. Unfortunately thats what we are trying to do now.
and what about show racism the red card? isnt that a political message? just because we all agree with the point doesnt mean it isnt a political point?
should we only ban expressions when some of us disagree with the point?
Morning Bhoys and Ghirls.
Paul 67, time for a new article. Pronto.
HH, Always in Celtic.
Whither the cash strapped scrofulous hillbillies the day?
Macjay at 7.57
This might be quite interesting for you with regards to your assertions about Ireland’s actions during the second world war
http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/archive/index.php/t-6482.html
Well, since Peter Lawwell is chastised for a “quip”at our recent AGM will be interesting to see what comment, if any, made regarding the Ibrox requisitioners, led by that broadcasting giant Gordon Smith, guffawing merrily about a paedophile remark made at their meeting last night.
Like mist here I won’t hold my breath.
macjay1 for Neil Lennon:
Your post of 07.57 has got to be you having a laff. If you’re actually being serious then I can suggest a list of books that might enlighten you to what went on.
Regards Ireland being neutral, what else could she have been? And without trying to educate you via a wee post that could never do the subject justice, she was not as neutral as some might have you believe. She was not a friend to Germany, neither was she and enemy. Germany had much more advanced plans to invade Ireland than the British, and Éamon de Valera turned down a German offer of all the British guns left behind in France after Dunkirk.
A lot more went on over that period than what you’ll ever read about in the Daily Mail or the Telegraph or Follow Follow, but it actually requires that you take the time to read the books, not simply repeat the anti-Irsih British propaganda that was so vogue then and lives an active life in many quarters still to this day.
Dontbrattbakkinanger 08:41 on 29 November, 2013
Whither the cash strapped scrofulous hillbillies the day?
……………………..
Possibly in the same place as my QCN annual. The Carmyllie CSC is on BOOKCON 1 awaiting it’s arrival.
Macjay:
Did you ever hear the one about those in the free state that fuelled and serviced German U-boats?
And further, Macjay, here is an excerpt from Wikipedia;
“The Cranborne report[edit]
Viscount Cranborne, the British Secretary of State for Dominion Affairs, wrote a letter[when?] to the British War Cabinet regarding Irish-British collaboration during 1939–1945:[47]“
They agreed to our use of Lough Foyle for naval and air purposes. The ownership of the Lough is disputed, but the Southern Irish authorities are tacitly not pressing their claim in present conditions and are also ignoring any flying by our aircraft over the Donegal shore of the Lough, which is necessary in certain wind conditions to enable flying boats to take off the Lough.
They have agreed to use by our aircraft based on Lough Erne of a corridor over Southern Irish territory and territorial waters for the purpose of flying out to the Atlantic.
They have arranged for the immediate transmission to the United Kingdom Representative’s Office in Dublin of reports of submarine activity received from their coast watching service.
They arranged for the broadening of reports by their Air observation Corps of aircraft sighted over or approaching Southern Irish territory. (This does not include our aircraft using the corridor referred to in (b) above.)
They arranged for the extinction of trade and business lighting in coastal towns where such lighting was alleged to afford a useful landmark for German aircraft.
They have continued to supply us with meteorological reports.
They have agreed to the use by our ships and aircraft of two wireless direction-finding stations at Malin Head.
They have supplied particulars of German crashed aircraft and personnel crashed or washed ashore or arrested on land.
They arranged for staff talks on the question of co-operation against a possible German invasion of Southern Ireland, and close contact has since been maintained between the respective military authorities.
They continue to intern all German fighting personnel reaching Southern Ireland. On the other hand, though after protracted negotiations, Allied service personnel are now allowed to depart freely and full assistance is given in recovering damaged aircraft.
Recently, in connection with the establishment of prisoner of war camps in Northern Ireland, they have agreed to return or at least intern any German prisoners who may escape from Northern Ireland across the border to Southern Ireland.
They have throughout offered no objection to the departure from Southern Ireland of persons wishing to serve in the United Kingdom Forces nor to the journey on leave of such persons to and from Southern Ireland (in plain clothes).
They have continued to exchange information with our security authorities regarding all aliens (including Germans) in Southern Ireland.
They have (within the last few days) agreed to our establishing a Radar station in Southern Ireland for use against the latest form of submarine activity.”
I have no particular interest in Ireland’s military history; however I have surprised by the misinformation that exists wrt this topic. It is similar to the type of campaign currently in process to “encourage” people to regard Sevco as the same club as the liquidated Rangers.
This is the link to the full Wikipedia ebtry from which the above was taken
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality_during_World_War_II
Irish neutrality in WW2 was much preferable to the Swiss version.
DBBIA/Paddy Finucane CSC