Apologies to all who, like me, tired of the circular ‘songs debate’ on CQN many years ago. Back in 2011, when Celtic had a similar action from Uefa to defend as they now face, I predicted a slow train wreck:
“The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
“I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
“Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.”
A few weeks later I wrote:
“Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
“While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.”
Since then:
Uefa and the SPL have reprimanded Celtic.
Efforts have been made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which mostly fail.
Despite pleas from Neil Lennon, or earlier from Jock Stein, some insist on signing political songs. As Jock and Neil were ignored it remains an act of vanity for lesser mortals to try to convince others to desist.
Charges have been brought for expressing sentiment similar to that in Flower of Scotland.
Celtic have not, should not and cannot try to mitigate IRA chanting or banners as inconsequential. It is not inconsequential, Jock Stein knew it a long time before the SNP government. Fill your boots on debating why it has consequences below, it’s a huge intellectual topic, you’ll enjoy it, then you’ll get bored of it and move on.
If you want the opportunity to have a Debating Society on this, there is space on the comments section, knock yourself out. I’ve been through the songs debate often enough to know some of our community feel it is incumbent upon them to sing IRA songs at football games. Pointing out the words of Jock Stein, or the inevitable conclusion to this singing, or how things have developed in Ireland, will not change this perspective.
That’s the thing about slow train wrecks, nothing can stop them. It’s more productive to plan on how to deal with the aftermath.
Congratulations to the Bucketeers who raised over £26k for the costs of mounting an appropriate legal defence to the Dam Square five. This is a stunning amount of money raised, which demonstrates the strength of feeling among the support.
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CQN Annual, get it while it’s hot:
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Did God, not make man in his own likeness? Now I’m not daring to compare NFL with God but you take my point surely. Neil needs to think outside the box (I know, I know) but he needs to get players with some vision and also get players who recognise that vision!! Sometimes you get a player who makes a pass and no-one is there for it and the crowd give him pelters but who is wrong here,eh? The player for making the pass or the other clowns for not looking forward enough?
I rest my case- – -we need a creative , forward thinking midfielder.Crosas fits the bill IMO, or maybe Iniesta!!
Hail Hail
KINGLuBO
Young Henderson plays with his head up always looking out for a pass.The game v Milan U20s ,i swear he actually passed the ball forward,will never catch on.
I lost the last paragraph of my last post so here it is.
“It is time for Lawell and the PLC to decide what they want, a sanatised support sitting on their hands,with only one tier of the stadium open.
Or have the debate, be courageous enough to engage the GB in really meaningful dialogue, lets celebrate our Irish heritage without feeling guilty or that we are offending anyone, support the fans and FAC regarding the OB at football and galvanize the support go forward as one, does he have the baws for it?”
gebhoy
TBB,
forgive me but, the is no solving to be done, I, HT and others have asked a simple question, why can you sing songs about William Wallace , nelson mandela and the like with no problem, yet the minute any of the 10s names are mentioned your victimised?..i know the answerr and I am sure you do also, racism plain and simple.being irish means your guilty…wel I am born and bred in Scotland, but both side of family arrived here not by choice…i for one will never forget nor turn my back on that fact.
The rights and wrongs of UEFA disciplinary actions can be argued about till the cows come home. However, the GB were being self-indulgent on Tuesday night because the leading lights at least knew that complaints would follow and UEFA would act.
For what it’s worth, I believe that the banners were of little consequence. At the same time, I was amused to see fellow supporters who wouldn’t have thought twice about singing “Paddy McCourt’s fenian army” express their outrage at the banner that caused Ajax to get fined after the Amsterdam game. As a republican born a bastard I was not offended. I also doubt that de Boer was heartbroken to be told he was a SOB by some of our support. (If they knew anything about Dutch history they would realise the Order has never existed in Holland.)
The winner in all of this is Lawwell, who failed to invest in the team at the start of the season and left us with a defence on Tuesday that was less mobile than a Subbuteo team and an attack that wouldn’t have scored against Glasgow Ladies.
Not exactly sure why the CQNewspeak team would want to point out Jock Stein’s or Neil Lennon’s words (to those adjudged less intellectual and more misguided than themselves presumably), about Celtic fans singing songs, as some sort of behavioural barometer? As if each fan should eschew their own untrustworthy cognitive processes and adopt the club representative’s views as their own by the simple fact of the authority which such esteemed office bestows upon its bearer? Quite typical of the patronising fare to be had from the Ministry of Celtic Culture edicts pored over by the podium crew. I suppose it saves those unfortunate souls Brother Walfrid sought to protect from making their own decisions about where/when/how to express their identity.
gebhoy
I am at yer side mo chara..
how to make more of the U20’s into first team regulars. James Forrest apart, not many breaking though recently. Dundee U model is intersting (obviously financially dictated) but a better bet than the Pukkis, Banguras etc??
Ah am deeply Perplexed at the Swift diminution of .. Young McGeough’s Obvious
Outrageous Talent.
Ah thought this Kid wiz…well.. IT!
In His Debut, agin the Saint Mirren.. who Could Not forget his..
Wonderful.. Jiggin’ Run.. From the Center Circle..
‘
when he left .. A bunch of Frustrated And Rid Faced Opponents in his Back wash..
as he continued oan in a Relentless Drive tae Eventual Fitba Glory.. which all who witness his Feat, was Convinced that he wid Achieve…by ..
Finishing his Spectacular Run.. by Popping the Fiba.. Intae oor Dumbfoonded Opponent’s Ingin Bag!
Whit a wonderful Debut, the Lad Hid.. so he Hid..
Howevahhhhhhh..
Since Then..?
He has Shown.. Nada.. Zilch.. Nuttin’ ..any time he has appeared In the Jersey of the The First Eleven..
Whit Happaened??
Ah blame.. Neil… As ye micht Suspect… Ah wid..
Fur..
In his Last Appearance in the Celtic Mid..
This Youngster..
Hid Turned intae.. Much… tae Ma Horror and Consternation….
Anither..
Neil Clone..
Yes..Neil, Had succeeded,as he Ineveitably Alwiz…Diz..
In turning a Young Adventurous Mid Field Prospect..
into a Anither.. AIr Raid Warden..
A Complete and ComplIant.. Safety Firster…a la Neil.
Kojo
Still Laughin.
overseasbhoy
in my opinion james forrest never broke through, he for some reason known only to the manager he was fast tracked…
Seems quite a few on here are sympathetic to the infantile GB
They are like many of their generation and are very well informed on what their “rights” are – their right to sing what they want – their right to display whatever banners they want – their right to be the self appointed voice and conscience of the wider Celtic support
Like many of their generation they are not so hot on their “responsibilities”
They brush off being responsible for the club being fined – they will brush off the club having part of the ground being closed and no doubt will attempt to brush off any points that the club might be docked in the future
Those things are always someone else’s fault or responsibility
However they are not children and should be treated as adults
Adults who persistently let people down should be told that their presence is no longer required
HH
Heard Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep today.
Do any of you remember that tune to these words?
Chirpy chirpy was a big favourite in the Jungle a few years ago.
Words changed to “where’s your Alfie Conn, where’s your Alfie Conn? Far far away to a land beyond the sea God Bless him. Sworn to be free” and on with the Soldiers Song.
Might be a bit offensive that???
“Club Captain” Scott Brown did more damage to Celtic in UEFA’s competition than the GB…….
Enjoyed an afternoon with BRT&H in the company of a CQNer and also Willie McStay.
Great stories from Willie about his time playing for the club – being sent off in that 4-4 game at Ibrox, talking with great affection about Tommy Burns, describing the night when both Paul and Willie scored against Rangers in a 3-0 win. Stuff about that Rapid Vienna game and how he thinks we would have gone on to win that trophy. That day at Love Street. The Cup finals. The money the guys were on back them and how they loved midweek games for their double bonus. Tremendous memories of Celtic in the the eighties.
We enjoyed this so much that we have persuaded Willie to join CQN and come on for a few hours to answer questions from CQNers – just like Willie Wallace did earlier this year. Willie even took an extra copy of the CQN Annual to send to Paul over in Australia, saying that’ll do him for Christmas!
Will let you know when he’s coming on the blog. The interview itself will be in the next edition of CQN Magazine.
MattE
EggZackly.. Pally.. EggZackly.. so Broonie did!
Ah hiv already said it..and Ah wull Say it ..Again
Broonie,is.. a Hasher and a Basher..
He.. shows a Guid Game..
But..
In the Cauld Light of the Aftermath..of Wan o his Surgin Runs..
He ends up .. Over Running the Ba.. Fa’s Doon.. or Sky the Fitba..
Broonie is Awe Hat and Nae Cattle..
As the wiseacres ,in the Kojo Bunkhoose..are wont tae Remark.
So ..Pal.. Ah gree wi yer Sentiments re Mr. Broon.
Kojo
Still,Laughin’
winning captains
any idea how long the annual takes to get here after ordering/ I ordered mine the beginning of last week.
gebhoy
Very well put, can’t disagree with anything there.
TBB
Your point about a ‘filter’ is accurate, there is a need for sensitivity and compassion.
Will the same virtues be afforded to the Irish diospara in Scotland?
That’s my main concern. Anti Irish racism accounts for some of the highest rates of race crime in this country (until 13 years ago it was the highest).
Where and when will it stop?
Right I’m off to kick some CQNers at fitba :-)
UTLR
Masty
I have seen no suggestion that you or anyone else ought to forget or turn your back on anything.
How and when you choose to remember, and how and where you choose to express it, should be a point of consideration.
While ‘The Troubles’ are of course a matter of Irish history, equally, they are a matter of British history, perhaps more so, almost all of the incidents occurring in the UK, and the UK being the central point at issue. The manner in which they were reported at the time in the UK reflected a mind set and culture that has lost much of its validity, but it is clear that there remains a legacy of that view which many people struggle to rationalise. Such people including those who drafted the OBAFTC Act.
The on-going work of the Historical Enquiries Team continues to provide new information that reshapes the lens through which we view those many terrible events, and perhaps in due course there will emerge a new consensus on what occurred, why and who was responsible, but I sense it is a generation away.
That new consensus, should it emerge at all, will involve all points of view being challenged and changed. Including of course, our own.
masty
Mine was posted on Tuesday of last week I think -arrived this morning.
The Irish and their Irish descendants should be seen and not heard! Is this what the Scottish/English nation are telling us?
croppybhoy
17:42 on
28 November, 2013
Very strong on “Responsibilities”.
Are Celtic not responsible for fans of their club being victimized?.Are Celtic not responsible for keeping their word when they told us”Every penny taken in on transfers,will be spent on the team”
Are Celtic not responsible for keeping their word when they said”We intend to come out of every transfer window stronger”
Are Celtic not responsible in taking a stand against the open corruption going on in Scottish football.
Are Celtic not responsible for not opposing the re-election of Ogilvie.
Everyone has responsibilities.
Masty
To actually answer your question…
… the passage of time.
TBB
masty is neil lennon and both of us are supporting wee oscar
We have been posting out Annual orders straight away. If it doesn’t arrive in next day or so please let me know and we will send a substitute. My email address is david@CQNMagazine.com
Big Mike
17:57 on
28 November, 2013
The Irish and their Irish descendants should be seen and not heard! Is this what the Scottish/English nation are telling us?
It is indeed.And far too many on here are quite prepared to go along with those sentiments.
TBB
I take and respect all of your last post, but Tuesday nights banner display was nothing to do with being irish nor supporting anything or anyone irish, it was a cleverly thought out statement/question as to why when you sing or display anything irish its a crime.
Evening all
Just to warn this might turn into a long ramble. Scroll on and console yourself in the knowledge that Paul usually posts a new article at such time.
Firstly I don’t know if a result and performance have , well, upset me so much in a long time as Tuesdays – this months two Champions’ League have for different reasons been dreadful for Celtic in different ways.
The events in Amsterdam cannot be forgotten but at least there is the possibility that justice can be done but Tuesday cannot. Walking away from the stadium at the end of the match I really do worry that this might be the last occasion we play host to such a match for several years, by the end we were playing as though we didn’t belong on that stage.
Now this may seem unduly harsh and pessimistic and it won’t stop me following my team or wishing we were as good as I want them to be. However that doesn’t disguise that Tuesday stunk.
We operate in unbalanced environments. Domestically we are financially leviathans , our rivals are ants in comparison. I think this is unhealthy. When we compete in the Champions League though it is Celtic who are the ants. Playing Milan and Barcelona we are playing clubs that are recognised as being massive and Ajax , though lacking the financial muscle of the other two are still comfortably ahead of financially ahead of us. We sell three players and earn £20 million – they sell individual players for sums that exceed that figure. Football is no longer a sport. Not news but I still don’t like it.
Nevertheless Celtic are hardly blameless for Tuesday. We are nowhere near as good as we should or could be. I can accept that players make mistakes and on the field on Tuesday , in isolation, none of the mistakes which led to their goals or our failure to convert any one of the five decent chances was the kind of error that is going to make it into a bloopers’ DVD. We got away with a few things in last season’s run and maybe things have just evened themselves out. As I say I can live with these mistakes, the same way that I can live with Neil Lennon picking what was proved to be a badly over attacking team on Tuesday. When I was in the pub before the game when I and my two fellow CQNers ( neither a happy clapper) all liked the look of the team chosen.
But that the team is stodgy and frequently quite hard going to watch seems less excusable particularly in domestic matches. Flair seems to be stifled with Neil preferring endeavour ahead of skill. I am old enough to remember that the Jock Stein era Celts actually weren’t great in every match but other than the latter period of Liam Brady and the Lou Macari season this is the least attractive team I think I can remember.
I can live with this as in NFL’s tenure we have had periods when the team has been rather exciting to watch most notably during his first full season and in the middle two quarters of the second one. The failures off the field I feel less well disposed towards.
The strategy – as expounded here and elsewhere- of buying low with a view to selling high is not one I like. Our signing strategy should, at every level, be about building as good a team as we can. This does not mean reckless financing leading to dodgy tax schemes but simply means what it says. I can’t seriously imagine that Peter Lawell sanctioned the signing of Virgil Van Dijk because he imagined he could be sold on for four or five times what we paid for him. But I think some on here can imagine this Machiavellian figure operating in this way. If Celtic make a lot of money from playing in Europe and selling players we should not be told that we can only spend a fraction of it on maintaining the team’s standard far less improve it. But that is what is happening now. And it means that Celtic cannot be as good as it should be.
I won’t bore on too much about the Green Brigade – it seems strange that I think Tuesday’s banner was a big mistake when I agree with the sentiments which appeared on it. But I do though I am far from convinced I am right.
As I say sorry for droning on but I feel I need to get this all off my chest.
Jimbo67 supporting Oscar Knox
Winning Captains
Great Work, Son..
Ye did Great!
It wull be a Pleasure tae Hiv a Proper Fitba’ers.. Comments Oan Here..
Instead, of awe the Erzatz wans.. Fae.. well..
Me..
Ah look forward tae reading Willie’s Answers tae oor Probing questions. oan awe Matters concerning the Present Celtic way of Playing the Game.
Especially, whit Willie may think aboot the Worth o’ the Present Group o’ Bumblin’ Denizens who,presently, populate oor Mid Field.. and whit Exactly diz he Think of Thur Input..
Kojo
Still, Laughin’
winning captains
can you confirm my order please?
WC-Willie is a gentleman.He was promised a dream job at Bristol City,but it was scuppered when Derek McInnes lost his job and replaced by Sean O’Driscoll.He wanted a Director of Football role created,and Willie’s post was then surplus.O’Driscoll got sacked today,a very fickle game at that level.
Celtic FC.. Born in Scotland, raised in Scotland and forever Scottish. Bobby sands ? What position did he play for us ? Keep the IRA out of our club. I dont want associated with the perpetrators of the bombing of civilians at Omagh, Enniskillen, Warrington….
Turkeybhoy
16:48 on
28 November, 2013
They are being castigated for using a method of making their point, no matter how valid or well presented it might be, in a manner that broke an understanding with Celtic and has damaged the good reputation Celtic fans enjoy.
Spurs game on ITV4
Robcfc11
18:03 on
28 November, 2013
Celtic FC.. Born in Scotland, raised in Scotland and forever Scottish. Bobby sands ? What position did he play for us ? Keep the IRA out of our club. I dont want associated with the perpetrators of the bombing of civilians at Omagh, Enniskillen, Warrington….
——————————————————————————
biggest pile of sh####e ever posted on here…away and bile yer hied.
Hamiltontim
good post sir
Turkeybhoy
well said.
Hh
Auldheid,
If you can show me what is offensive about the display on Tuesday,I will most certainly agree with you.All it did was compare the differences in being Irish or Scottish.It was cleverly done,and great thought had gone into it to make it non offensive.
Masty .. do you know any of the facts i stated to be wrong ? I am sure we were born at st marys in calton, glasgow, scotland. Played every home game in scotland and continue to do so. If u disagree thats fine. Try and be less eloquent next time you respond, it makes it easier for us lesser mortals to understand.
Robcfc11
18:12 on
28 November, 2013
Masty .. do you know any of the facts i stated to be wrong ? I am sure we were born at st marys in calton, glasgow, scotland. Played every home game in scotland and continue to do so. If u disagree thats fine. Try and be less eloquent next time you respond, it makes it easier for us lesser mortals to understand.
The fact you sound like a hun maybe has something to do with his reply!!!!!
Masty
I’m with you on this and
I guess Td67 will be engaging in some debate with us this weekend.
hh