Apologies to all who, like me, tired of the circular ‘songs debate’ on CQN many years ago. Back in 2011, when Celtic had a similar action from Uefa to defend as they now face, I predicted a slow train wreck:
“The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
“I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
“Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.”
A few weeks later I wrote:
“Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
“While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.”
Since then:
Uefa and the SPL have reprimanded Celtic.
Efforts have been made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which mostly fail.
Despite pleas from Neil Lennon, or earlier from Jock Stein, some insist on signing political songs. As Jock and Neil were ignored it remains an act of vanity for lesser mortals to try to convince others to desist.
Charges have been brought for expressing sentiment similar to that in Flower of Scotland.
Celtic have not, should not and cannot try to mitigate IRA chanting or banners as inconsequential. It is not inconsequential, Jock Stein knew it a long time before the SNP government. Fill your boots on debating why it has consequences below, it’s a huge intellectual topic, you’ll enjoy it, then you’ll get bored of it and move on.
If you want the opportunity to have a Debating Society on this, there is space on the comments section, knock yourself out. I’ve been through the songs debate often enough to know some of our community feel it is incumbent upon them to sing IRA songs at football games. Pointing out the words of Jock Stein, or the inevitable conclusion to this singing, or how things have developed in Ireland, will not change this perspective.
That’s the thing about slow train wrecks, nothing can stop them. It’s more productive to plan on how to deal with the aftermath.
Congratulations to the Bucketeers who raised over £26k for the costs of mounting an appropriate legal defence to the Dam Square five. This is a stunning amount of money raised, which demonstrates the strength of feeling among the support.
[calameo code=000390171e05b9b63a832 lang=en page=38 hidelinks=1 width=100% height=500]
CQN Annual, get it while it’s hot:
1,061 Comments- Pages:
- «
- 1
- ...
- 6
- 7
- 8
- 9
- 10
- 11
- 12
- ...
- 28
- »
Hamiltontim is praying for Oscar @16.39 hrs.
Just back in and reading back, very interesting post although times and society have changed since the old “Jungle” days.
What was once acceptable in a football ground is no longer acceptable or tolerated– and rightly so. Some TV programmes can no longer be aired as they are no longer appropriate. Some treatment of certain opposition players was disgraceful but was tolerated. We have evolved as a club and as a society.
As you state I also have a degree of sympathy for the mainly young members of the GB, but current circumstances must prevail.
Your mention of Michael Davitt is particularly relevant and is of course a direct part of Celtic’s past.
Although UEFA may not recognise the name everyone on here will ( Or should ) especially those hailing from Ireland or the Glasgow area. As someone who fought against injustice, both in Britain and Ireland, renounced violence and advanced the working class he is an inspirational figure. I remember hearing about him on a par with Kier Hardie.
It should however be acknowledged that to some he is regarded as a “Judus” figure and has been largely removed from Irish history in some quarters.
If the GB had chosen to use this figure with William Wallace then I think UEFA’s position would be on shaky ground.
HH, Always in Celtic.
Robcfc11
18:12 on
28 November, 2013
Masty .. do you know any of the facts i stated to be wrong ? I am sure we were born at st marys in calton, glasgow, scotland. Played every home game in scotland and continue to do so. If u disagree thats fine. Try and be less eloquent next time you respond, it makes it easier for us lesser mortals to understand.
——————————————————————————————-
still a pile of dung…
I just want to say I love the Celtic, love the colour, the fans, the stadium, the training ground (only seen pictures mind) love the songs, love the traditions and love the fact that the Tic are going to make an avenue of heroes. God Bless Glasgow Celtic!
HT
I have chapter and verse on Hate Crime. In terms of charges brought (the unit of measure in Scotland) it is impossible to separate out offences where the direction of offence is against Irish people (or assumed identity) and Catholics (or assumed).
The last report (2012/13) showed 10 (ten) times more charges for Race Hate (BME) than Religious Offences towards Catholics, and the incidence of hate crime directed at a person’s sexuality was 50% greater than religious (Catholic referenced) offences.
I could go on.
There is a problem in Scotland/Scottish society in accepting Irish/Catholic identity.
Quantitatively, it is a small fraction of the problem other identities face. The fact that it gets so much publicity is in part an attempt to mask the fact that Scots society remains uncomfortable with “The Other” irrespective of who The Other happens to be.
I’ll give you an interesting (I think) snippet.
Remember the lost data, the data that the COPFS destroyed such that analysis could not be provided at the time of the debate on OBAFTC Act?
I got it under a series of FOI requests to the Criminal History System.
I provided it to 2 editors of National newspapers, a TV broadcaster, a host of smaller publications, the research unit at Edinburgh Uni, and some online outlets.
Excluding the Uni, no one ran with it. The data describes what I have discussed above. The (mainstream) newspapers didn’t like what the stats said about Scots society, and neither did those who held the opposing view. Neither’s view of society was validated by the figures.
None published. Not one. The myth is perpetuated that ‘sectarianism’ is Scotland’s shame, when in fact, downright intolerance of difference is the problem. We see it every time the data are published. But don’t tell anyone.
Enjoy the game.
TBB
The Green Brigade don’t represent or speak or display manners for or on my behalf.
i asked earlier today if ALL members of the GB REALLY know what is going on…..or are the being led by the few and falling in behind as required.
I spoke to the a mate of mine’s son today, who works in the city and sits in 111.
He didnt know what the banner was going to say and subsequently didn’t understand it.
Who is orchestrating the GB?
Anyone?
No comments on STV reporting Celtic to the SFA for the banner at the Aberdeen game.I find this very strange as many had plenty to say about the harmless Tuesday banners.Wonder if its because it has become ridiculous.Does any one really think that Celtic were not grassed to UEFA on Tuesday?.Probably by that bastion of morality,STV.
We are under attack.Waken up to the fact.
manners = banners
“While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended”
While I remain somewhat ambivalent with regards to the singing of ‘ reb’ songs at CP perhaps it is worth remembering that both the Tricolour and soldier’s song the national flag and national anthem of Irish Republic respectively are only so because of the IRA. Perhaps someone can remind me what the positive parts of our Irish tradition are? Leprechauns, thatched roof white washed cottages, Daniel O’Donnell singing the Fields of Anthenry perhaps? Singing reb songs has been part of our ‘tradition’ since day one – “God Save Ireland” anyone?
SeditionisourtraditionCSC.
Bl**dy phones!
Philbhoy – Free the Dam 5!
I knew about A banner, without knowing exactly what it was going to say only that it would back up Saturdays, and I am not nor even know anyone in the GB.
We rightly proclaim that we are a ‘club open to all’ and have been for 126 years. We have highlighted that this is a key difference between us and the dead club. This then has to be more than just a statement and should be obvious from our actions both as supporters and club. My question is do we feel that the banners displayed and songs sung back up our claim. Do they encourage or discourage potential supporters.
As a supporter from the early 60’s i was involved in chanting and songs that certainly wouldn’t demonstrate an open to all ethos.
oglach
what the positive parts of our Irish tradition are? Leprechauns, thatched roof white washed cottages, Daniel O’Donnell singing the Fields of Anthenry perhaps? Singing reb songs has been part of our ‘tradition’ since day one – “God Save Ireland” anyone
——————————————–
Guinness?..sorry mo chara couldnay resist.
Saint Stivs
12:24 on
28 November, 2013
If I may suggest a future strategy to protect the very well being and health of Celtic PLC, and the eyes and ears of those who are offended by all things GB.
Lets think strategically and longer term.
Lets ban ALL under 21′s.
Not mature enough to form opinions, or to know whats best for our club, they are the Declan and Kevin teenagers with all that drawing attention to themselves, and their clothes, its all about them, they out to grow up.
If we can stop them young, we cant stop them gettin radicalised into these Univeristy types, and if they cant do what they are told, then its their ain faults.
This would also improve the catering at the matches, we would needs less stewards, do away with the loud tunes at half time, and get rid of that ridiculous Hoopy thing.
Thats the solution, ban them kids.
Philbhoy – Free the Dam 5!
I see you are quite prepared to mention “The Dam 5″in your name.Yet Celtic fans being arrested for nothing criminal,as the courts have proved,are beneath you.”They dont speak for me”.So to you it all depends on what uniformed thugs do the arresting,or in what country.
masty is neil lennon and both of us are supporting wee oscar
Can you please send me an email?
Email address is david@CQNMagazine.com – will check tonight an get back to you later this evening.
Since ,maist oan here are Hell Bent
On..
NO TALKING.. FITBA’
Then Here is Sumptin.. tae Jaw Aboot
Wiz it.. Eric Arthur Blair ..who said ..
“A Journalist,is Somewan.. who Prints Something.. that Somewan ..
Disnae want tae be discussed ,in the Public Forum.” or.. woids tae that affect.
Are thur any Journalists Amonst You loat?
And,if Thur Ur..
Well.. Let’s See ye Print some o’ that…. “Somethin'”….
oan Here.
Diz Scotland, hae Wan single Solitary .. Journalist?
Ah dunno.. Do You?
Kojo
Still,Laughin
who is orchestrating the GreenBrigade ?
is it the conductor ?
but its only a drum, so its not much of a gig is it.
winning captains
e-mail sent..
If you want to disrespect the club and it’s custodians, do so.
If you want display these controversial banners and sing controversial songs, then please take the place of the current custodians and do what you want.
Until you are in charge, respect the club.
Or, well, do one.
Gotta Go. Joe
Seeya.
Kojo
Still,Laughin
Auldheid,
If you can show me what is offensive about the display on Tuesday,I will most certainly agree with you.All it did was compare the differences in being Irish or Scottish.It was cleverly done,and great thought had gone into it to make it non offensive.
=====================
I do not recall using the words offensive. In fact having checked I never even hinted at it.
My point to which you have not responded to is that a method that the club and GB had apparently agreed would not be used to make a point was used.
As a result Celtic supporters reputation was damaged. Who decided this was an acceptable risk?
Nothing to do with the Board, just who is making these decisions?
Post event justification is all very well but the justification should be taking place before the event.
So who was doing the justifying to whom?
Irony/history challenged hun on SSB genuinely just said “this club has been lied to and stolen from”. Kestrel all over poor Fang. Comedy genius. No wonder they’re headed for oblivion. Again.
Turkeybhoy
Do all your protesting outside the ground.
Or pay the fines yourself.
There is a lot i abhor or just plain object to in this world, but when I go to Celtic Park it is to support my team.
I’ve protested outside the Russian and American embassies in the UK but I didn’t take it into CP.
If you or any other supporters have causes to support then go do it. You have every right.
But if the custodians, all re elected at the recent AGM say you cannot do it inside Celtic Park, then respect their wishes.
Or be banned.
Either way suits me.
.
A bit weary from the last few days, hasn’t been good , gubbed on Tuesday and then a section of our support demonised by all and sundry including some in our own support.
Looks like we ain’t the all inclusive club we claim to be , we certainly ain’t the world class club Big Peter claimed in his statement.
Really Disapointed at what’s going on in what should be a time for delerious celebration as a result of their demise.
Being going to games since I was 5 ( now 44) and probably haven’t felt as distanced from our board since the bad old days of the old board.
1. They have never spoke for us and fought that the truth be outed regards Deidco.Systematically cheated for decades yet we make no comment.
2. Not paying employees the living wage.
3. Paying lip service to opposition to Offensive behaviour at football act.
4. Failure to invest in the team.
The only thing unfortunately world class about Celtic at the moment is the support .
This board need to back the support not ban them.
When will it end ?
Yours depressingly
Burghbhoy
HH
Bottom line is, goodnight GB, I said it from day one stabbed the club in the back at the weekend and tuesday night, and we are supposed to sit back and say ,, awe ok we like you, GB, GOOD NIGHT.
Gene’s a Bhoy’s name @18.24 hrs.
Hard to argue against, Celtic’s mission statement also reinforces your post.
And yes I too have been guilty.
HH, Always in Celtic.
How many supporters in the GB section?
2 thousand?
3 Thousand?
5 Thousand?
The tail waggin’ the dug?
Not in my name!
Free the other 50 odd thousand supporters!
Please.
Then we can get back to supporting Celtic FOOTBALL Club.
C’MON THE CELTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So do we loose our identity to try and intigrate or stand our ground.
This bill is more than a football bill..
I am proud of what my grandparents fought for and will not allow wishy washy new age tims to change me or my family.
Celtic open to all unless you are a product of how we where formed….
Not on my watch…
bobby sands an elected British MP? did he have more legitimacy than William Wallace?
any half decent lawyer would tie these bloody bodies up in knots for years
who decides what is appropriate and not, those that are trying to censors, those that are trying to sanitise football while selling drugs, gambling and commercialism etc….
i dont know if i like that new tsg line on next years shirt ……….
Celtic , just a club
God Save Ireland
Timothy Daniel Sullivan
God save Ireland, said the heroes
God save Ireland, said they all
Whether on the scaffold high
Or the battlefield we die
Oh, what matter when for Erin dear we fall
High upon the gallows tree swung the noble hearted three
By the vengeful tyrant stricken in their bloom
But they met him face to face with the courage of their race
And they went with souls undaunted to their doom
God save Ireland, said the heroes
God save Ireland, said they all
Whether on the scaffold high
Or the battlefield we die
Oh, what matter when for Erin dear we fall
Climbed they up the rugged stair, rang their voices out in prayer
Then with England’s fatal cord around them cast
Close beside the gallows tree kissed like brothers lovingly
True to home and faith and freedom to the last
God save Ireland, said the heroes
God save Ireland, said they all
Whether on the scaffold high
Or the battlefield we die
Oh, what matter when for Erin dear we fall
Never till the latest day shall the memory pass away
Of the gallant lives thus given for our land
But on the cause must go, amidst joy and weal and woe
Till we make our Isle a nation free and grand
God save Ireland, said the heroes
God save Ireland, said they all
Whether on the scaffold high
Or the battlefield we die
Oh, what matter when for Erin dear we fall
This song commemorates the memory of three Irishmen who were convicted of the murder of an English policeman in Manchester in 1867.
Brother Walfrid invited TD Sullivan to sing the song when the new stadium was opened in 1892.
Would I be right in thinking that today such an event would fall foul of both UEFA’s ban on political statements and the SNP’s ban on ‘offensive’ behaviour?
paul, could you please pass my condolences on to paulmcc’s family
Philbhoy – Free the Dam 5!
18:48 on 28 November, 2013
‘How many supporters in the GB section?’
####
What percentage still there at the end of the game?
Next thing up from Macca, I miss Rangers, wait for it.
tonto
who’s macca?
I used to drink with a mate who was a major shareholder at Celtic, although I wasn’t aware of that for a long time.
We used to drink in the Masonic Arms in Condorrat.
We discussed the @tic non stop.
However, you couldn’t criticise the club, with this guy.
His argument was “but it’s the Celtic!”
I used to think then that was a p*sh argument.
But all these years later I’m beginning to understand what he meant.
Celtic is bigger than you, me, any player who ever played for them and they are bigger than the Green brigade!!
If I’m wrong I will never go back, never support them again, never post on here again, never………………………….you make a list.
But you know what …… I am right.
So I’ll be back.
C’MON THE CELTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
blantyretim:
Go on my Son….:)
Keep the Faith!
Hail Hail!
Masty
Where’s the birds.