I’ve just caught Joe O’Rourke’s article on the Association site about the long-awaited released of statistics on sectarian crime in Scotland. Joe suggests that the data from 2003 – 2010 was has been destroyed by the Crown Office. I also hear that the Scottish Government will release entirely irrelevant ‘information’ today, specifically, where offences took place, not which groups were responsible or which groups were targeted by the offenders.
It takes a lot of effort to make sure you destroy data these days, you need to ensure not only that prosecutors permanently delete backups (which I really doubt they do) but also that the police similarly comply.
Fortunately all is not lost. While it’s just about believable that regional police forces across Scotland and the Crown Office have acted in symmetry on this issue, I could have helped the First Minister, Alex Salmond’s, search for clarity by pointing him in the direction of British Transport Police (BTP). The Transport Police are a separate force who operate across Britain and are run by the Home Office in London. They are also a lot less proficient at destroying data.
They previously gave me detailed statistics on all incidents they record in connection with Scottish football for season 2007-08. One of the most pleasing aspects of the information is the complete eradication of sectarian offences from all but one Scottish club, so the First Minister will be delighted to learn he has a smaller problem on his hands than he perhaps knew. According to BTP, 11 arrests were made for sectarian offences in total, 10 Rangers fans and one Northern Ireland fan.
You can see the detail figures for all recorded incidents here (the majority of which are for non-sectarian issues). From a total of 99 incidents (not all of which resulted in arrest), there were six involving Celtic fans, six for Dundee United, seven for Motherwell, four for Hibernian and five each for Aberdeen and Hearts. Rangers fans were involved in a total of 48 incidents.
The BPT figures also make it clear that most incidents occur when fans travel to away venues. The Force also confirmed that incidents surrounding the 2008 Uefa Cup final in Manchester were not included in these statistics.
To further aid Mr Salmond in his search for clarity on this issue, he can contact British Transport Police with a Freedom of Information request here, where they will be able to provide him (or you) with up to date stats.
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Apologies for the copy from RTC,I thought some of our bods on here might be able to help out with this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paulie Walnuts says:
18/11/2011 at 12:52 pm
Does anyone know what code D2 refers to in terms of Gazette Notices? And specifically what is the significance, if any of Rangers FC Group Ltd (Company Number 0380537) – ie Wavetower as was – having given notice in the London Gazette on about 16th November of a D”, the document itself being dated 8th November?
I don’t come across Gazette notices much in my day job and I’m struggling to see any translation for the uninitiated on the website.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I hope it’s not inconsequential…….
up_over_goal
Sammi is coming into a bit of form at the moment but he’ll never be a regular starter untill he get’s into the right mindset.
Stokes thinks he WILL score in every game call it overconfidence whatever but that’s what he thinks.
Sammi thinks he MIGHT score in every game and the results are obvious.
If we could only combine them into one player we’d have one hell of a striker.
Craig Nelson!
The last Thistle goalie I could think of… in case anyone wonders.
Mort/The Token Tim
I would not be surprised if that figure was to be broken down the 5% are people taking offence at a republican parade on the streets of this ‘One Nation’ and causing bother.
My Dear,Dear,Dear,friend.. Up Over Goal
And anither thing…
Young Fraser turned… SEVENTEEN.. last Spring..in May.. Ah think..
He is Far ,Far, too Far removed fae Being a First Team Starter..
Especially,agin the Caber Tossers!
Na.. Ah wid go wi.. Loovens.. he is coming oan in dribs and drabs..
Kojo
yer pal..who likes ye aloater
My starting 11 for tomorrow
Zaluska
Mathews
Penglase
Bilsland
Fraser
Forrest
Kayal
Wanyama
Commons
Stokes
Samaras
Markus Fraser on stand by.
up_over_goal
Rogne is injured.
D2 Acquisition of a company: form for the acquisition of a single company – amended
More spin from the Evening Times, turning into a right Laptop Loyal rag these days. The full story is Eddie Smith refused to meet the supporters as did his boss, Corrigan was a third choice stand in who stated he would attend as long as the Green Brigade did not and then mouthed off to the papers he was going to sort out the Celtic Supporters. HH
CELTIC fans groups today united to deliver a snub to Strathclyde Police, insisting they will not meet cop chiefs to discuss fan behaviour.
Assistant Chief Constable Campbell Corrigan was keen to meet with members of the Celtic Trust, Celtic Supporters Association and Green Brigade today.
But after the Green Brigade issued a stonewall refusal, the other two supporters bodies have now followed suit and pulled out of the summit.
The behaviour of Celtic fans has come under intense scrutiny in recent days after Uefa and the SPL launched probes into alleged pro-IRA chanting at home matches against Rennes and Hibs.
Corrigan today again pleaded with supporters not to indulge in such chants when they face Inverness tomorrow, with a team of specially- trained officers set to be on hand to monitor the behaviour of the Celtic support.
The police chief had hoped the talks today would be the first step forward – but the various supporters groups have joined forces in their refusal to meet with Corrigan.
At the time of the “shame game” I posted that we had less supporters arrested than they had players booked! Most of the Celtic arrests were at that game if that helps.
One of the concerns I have with these latest figures (not the BTP ones though, they are fascinating, kudo Paul67) is that whilst Catholics are 4.5x more likely to be victims what will be inferred about Catholics as perpetrators? I have seen these statistics misused brutally in the past, trying to indicate that because of the low number of Catholics in Scotland, even allowing for the lower numbers of offences, somehow Catholics are more likely to be perpetrators. That is nonsense.
This data only records the victims – not perpetrators. We can draw NO conclusions without accurate data on those exhibiting sectarian behaviour, and the simple fact that one religiouos group is the victim DOES NOT MEAN another religious group is the perpetrator, especially in light of the high proportion of those under 30 (those commiting the majority of offenses) who do not particpaite in organised religion.
That said, I feel an area worth further investigation is prompted by the high level of sectarian abuse targeted at the Police, often post-arrest. I would like to know what % of that particular category was anti-Catholic abuse aimed at the police (esp post-arrest) and what percentage was anti-protestant. I would also be interested in commentary relating to the circumstances of those arrests which led to post-arrest abuse of a sectarian nature.
Jesus Lads,
Is there anybody in the Celtic Squad left who isn’t injured????? What are they doing to these lads at Barrowlands????? Chucking hand grenades at them??? It’s totally unbelievable how one squad of 25+ players can have this many injuries before Christmas. You wouldn’t want to sign for Celtic without a ‘high risk premium’ at the moment. Is this more about our training methods and using modern technology to push players fitness to the limits??? Or is this lads looking at taking a dive to avoid accountability????
The only friggin player who is never injured is the worst player we have BIG DAN DONKEY. Jesus. Is there a prize for one player staying fit for 3 games in a row or what?????? It’s beggars belief.
Terry Butcher will be rubbing his hands when our Under 15 team tip up at Inverness tomorrow.
Nice to see Celtic sticking up for themselves and the fans for once. The government and police would love to push the “Celtic Park is worst for sectarianism” without explaining the facts.
My friends in Celtic
We are becoming fractious through “their” media
We must unite( at least tomorrow arvo)
The Meeja are having a field day writing about unknowns…
Pure distorted interpretation of …potentially nothing!!
Unity…. It is what makes us …”us”
I disagree with many posts recently … And agree with many as well…
I just want justice like we all do…..how it comes about…. Who knows
I don’t think we are together enough in our cause to be forceful enough
Once we focus on being Celtic supporters “faithful through and through”
Then we will conquer all… On the field … And off it
And dear god…. It’s unfortunately …. Not too pretty on it
I was privelleged to be part of the KANO foundation experience
at dun utd game in August
Now that was a Celtic experience ….I will never forget
The friends I met that day are burnt into my memory banks
nd those banks won’t go bust
The Vmhan… MWD .. CRC … Gordon j… Paul 67… Hamiltontim….St stove …. Kingoh…lennybhoy( set up)..mr dick Byrne …. Mr brattbackinanger…..and numerous other like minded great persons
Burnt into the heid…. Never to leave
Let’s get a result tomorrow … And dampen “their” squib
We play first….. For a change …. Lets put them under a wee bit of p
Come on you bhoys in green
Hh
Ramie
Nice work Paul and if I may regurgitate your facts verbally to certain people I ll be delighted ! After a tough few weeks my Celtic glass of optimism is full again.. Being on here helps.. Was pointed in direction of Michael Kelly’s Scotsman article.. His defence of our club was excellent in the article..off to top up the old Celtic glass ..
HH ..
Paul67’s post of just over 3 years ago.
Can I have 12 in the sweep for the missing two digits at end of post?
Celtic – Rangers finances compared
By
Paul67
on October 3, 2008 10:18 AM | Permalink | Comments (402)
While income and expenditure both turned slightly against Celtic last season, it was bonanza time at Ibrox where Rangers published record turnover as a result of the double bounty; Champions League group stage income followed by a run to the Uefa Cup final in Manchester.
Celtic turnover (t/o) was £75.237m compared to Rangers £64.452m, but Rangers outsource their merchandising operation, including only a licence payment from JJB Sports in the figures, whereas the Celtic figure includes total income from merchandising sales.
Celtic earned £16.092m from merchandising sales, contributing a margin of £4.8m in a financial year without the release of a new home shirt. When Rangers signed the JJB deal in 2006 they revealed they would earn £3m each year, plus £1.45m amortised in the Profit and Loss account (P&L) but paid at the start of the contract in 2006, criteria was in place to provide for bonus payments should unspecified targets be achieved.
It was, therefore, with some astonishment that no bonus payments were earned, despite the unprecedented proliferation of Rangers merchandise walking the streets ahead of the Manchester riot.
I understand that the bonus is dependent on progress to the latter stages of the Champions League, which ironically would have sold a lot less kit for JJB; it appears Rangers had overlooked a clause for Uefa Cup progress.
The big area of interest from a financial statement is the indication of where a company is heading next. Celtic will earn at least £70m this season but if they finish higher than bottom place in the Champions League group stage they should reach £75m.
By contrast, Rangers are looking at financial Armageddon. In 2004-05 they earned £34.48m (from continuing operations), a whopping £30m less than last season, but 2004-05 included four home European games, each with TV rights, compared to only one this season.
£34m will be the upper limit of their income potential this season; it will be less still, unless a good run in the domestic cups includes high-earning home games, a whole £40m less than what I expect from Celtic and still £28m less than the Celtic figure adjusted for comparable merchandise income.
Celtic salary costs were £38.981m, a £2.5m increase on the previous season, compared to £34.339m at Rangers, up a massive £10.1m on 2007. The latter figure will in part reflect incentive payments for European progress, although the clutch of new signings who arrived at the club in 2007 will make up the bulk of the increase.
In a masterstroke of business acumen, Rangers chief executive, Martin Bain, appears to have included the Uefa Cup in bonuses to be paid, but not on bonuses earned.
I was delighted to learn that Rangers pay more for the remarkably unpopular Bain (£668k) than Celtic pay for ‘Self Appointed Football-Integrity Judge and Jury’ (W.Smith), Peter Lawwell (£514k). Although perhaps Bain’s remuneration also reflected Uefa Cup progress. You would think that with such big numbers flowing into his own bank account the whole ‘What will be get if we do well in the Uefa Cup?’ question would be at the front of his mind when he negotiated with JJB.
Football club’s P&L income figures do not include player sales, with are recorded on the balance sheet, so Rangers sale of Cuellar will bring in £7.8m more than the income figure, which itself will be offset in cash terms by the £1.45m banked back in 2006 from JJB.
Before they start to spend on extravagances like footballers, clubs have considerable costs to pay. Rates, electricity, property maintenance, policing, to name only a few, cost Celtic £15.395m. Rangers figure was higher than this, perhaps as a result of exceptional items resulting from the run to the Uefa Cup final, so the previous year’s cost of £16.262m will be a better indicator of costs this year, which is just £18m less than their anticipated income available for football and other operations.
By comparison, Celtic will have in the region of £45m available for football and other operations when adjusted for the merchandise sales difference.
Net bank debt at Celtic was £3.52m compared to Rangers’ £21.559m but while Celtic are set to come out of debt in May (barring an exceptional expense in January), Rangers net year-end debt is likely to rise beyond £30m unless significant steps are taken to sell players in January.
Celtic are in an exceptionally strong financial position. They can survive the vagaries of football fortune, or economic downturn, without the threat of cutback should income dip.
Conversely, Rangers are in dire trouble. This year will not be financially the worst Sir David Murray has bestowed on his club, but it will make for horrendous reading to any prospective buyer of the club and provide further evidence that they are hopelessly adrift of financial security.
Winning the league this season and qualifying for next season’s Champions League will not provide succour from their structural problems, it would only result in a temporary slowdown in decline.
Rangers debt has risen inextricably, and is set to continue to rise, at a time when bank facilities have become more difficult and expensive to acquire.
Should new HBOS owners, Lloyds TBS, take fright at the property-to-football conglomerate, Murray International Holdings, which includes Rangers, frankly, the consequences are so dramatic, I don’t think we should discuss them, as I have trouble sleeping when I get too excited.
We live in a time when things which simply cannot happen, happen. When some of last year’s most credit-worthy companies in the world have gone into receivership; when one of the centuries-old pillars of the Scottish business community crumbled in days.
No company dependent on a significant increase in its debt is safe.
Rangers Football Club, 1873 – 20??
MICKYBHOY 1514
FFS,he even looks like one-look-the beady eyes,beaky nose,big ears,and none too braw!
From Twitter:
Dwayne De Rosario wins MLS MVP. 2nd: Brad Davis 3rd: Brek Shea 4th: Landon Donovan 5th: Mauro Rosales
—————————————————
Typical.
I suspect that for the £195M loss that Man City have posted you could buy the SPL in it’s entirety. Players, stadiums, training complexes – everything.
This has got to end.
2010 Never Again
Wait for it. It’s only a matter of time before he slips one in <:-))
Well done Paul67, well done Celtic and well done the Catholic Church.
United we stand!
Ernie
At least 2 of the 14 will be the members of the GB who unfurled the flag with the word ‘hun’ on it. I wonder how many of the remaining 12 fall into this category.
Barrowlands?
A donkey?
Hmm
The Numbers Game
From the figures reported this morning:
693 total offences that resulted in a charge;
231 charged were football related;
32 charged were parades related.
Total population of Scotland – 5.2m
Proportionaly 1 person in ever 7,503 in Scotland was arrested for an offence.
Total attendance at football matches – 3.6m (total SPL 3.48m and assuming rest for SFL and Scotland home games).
Proportionaly there was 1 arrest for every 15,584 people who attended a football match.
If assuming football and parades are equally bad, then for this to be true there would have had to be approximately 500,000 attending parades in Scotland in the same period. I don’t know if this is true or not but the Orange Order has 50,000 members in Scotland. This would equate to each member attending 10 parades.
A report on the BBC website suggested 8,000 attended Scotland’s largest orange parade in 2010 – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10493551
It’s therefore pretty inconceivable that there would have been 500,000 people attending parades over the whole year which means proportionally speaking, one is more likely to be arrested under Section 74 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003 for an offence aggravated by religious prejudice when attending parades than attending football matches.
The reporting on this issue is lazy in the extreme. I found this information in 10 minutes through the internet. I’m sure with many more resources, a journalist could find much more accurate data if he wished.
All the time, one also has to remember that one Celtic supporter at Celtic park for every 71,000 will be arrested for the same offence.
This means that Celtic supporters are now officially the best behaved group of people in Scotland.
Mort
Kojo
The next few games could be make or break for Paddy, but he may be sacrificed in a bid to get Commons to shed a few pounds – that would be a football tragedy, my friend!
Ki wappit … know what your friend means, Kojo, but he was superb in the cup game there in March, and was on the bench during the calamitous season-decider, so is exonerated from blame. No need for 11 stout-hearted warriors – you have to mix it up a bit.
LOOVENS AND ROGNE AND MULGREW ARE INJURED! It may well be Fraser, and I’d have full confidence in the lad.
Bontybhoy
You’re too optimistic – yes we have competition, but it has come at the price of a weakening in the overall standard. Competition is fine if they’re fighting to decide who is the best of the best, not the least wappit of the wappit (sshh, we’re hunting….). I’ll offer this – we played our best game this season against Motherwell in my opinion. Forster is a good keeper, but Zaluska is miles better – that’s why I prefer him.
cavansam
re. Sammi the Great – give the guy a break – save those comments when he’s not playing well, not after 3 assists in 2 games!
O.K..
So Loovens is Indisposed.. so is Cha..
Mmmmmmm
In thaat case..
Ah wid Partner Dan Dan wi .. Vito…
Yep..that wid be good Partnership..
Who noo fur Right Back?
Towell?
Na..he’s Gone..
Howe aboot..
TOSHNEY?
Yep. Ah like that laddie..
O.K. that’s it Settled Then…
Forster
Toshney Matthews
DanDan Vito.
Forrest Kayal …and.. and???? and
Sammi.
Tae Heck Wi it!!
Ah wull leave it tae Lenny…
Let HIM tak the Blame..no… Me!
Kojo.
Embdy seen Cadizzy lately?
Probably doesn’t know there’s been another songs debate.
Apologies for the long post but as a Celtic supporter and—nominally at least a RC—I found certain details within the Scottish Government’s crime statistics released today anomalous so I raised a query by e-mail immediately with the Scottish Government Statistic Unit based in Edinburgh.
The government must be very concerned because they replied by return to my two questions as to:
A/ “What software was used in the compilation of the latest crime statistics?
and
B/ “What nationally recognised standards or code of practice was followed by operatives in compilation of the data.”
They replied immediately and I was shocked, particularly by the second part of their response, which follows:-
A/ “The Scottish Government in conjunction with The Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service (COPFS) and working closely with our partners in the criminal justice system use a common software package for analysis of data. The data is called “AM Software”
AM Software was developed particularly for analysis of data from educational surveys (such as the National Assessment of Educational Progress). It includes a number of analyses under the rubric of Marginal Maximum Likelihood (MML), based on test theory (Item Response Theory) and used particularly to analyze data in which different subjects complete to different subscales of a test. Procedures in this group include MML Regression, MML Means, MML Table (Ordinal), MML Table (Nominal), MML Composite Means, MML Composite Regression, NALS Table, and NAEP Table.
It also includes more standard analyses including Frequencies, Descriptives, Correlations, (Linear) Regression, Percentiles, Probit and Logit Regression.
Data manipulation capabilities include ability to recode or calculate variables.
New features currently in a Beta-test version (available for download) include:
• Graphics: bar charts, line charts, and the new Sectioned Density Plot designed to compare distributions.
• New import/export facilities that enable you to easily import/export data to/from nearly 150 different data file formats, as well as over ODBC.
• Sample-design consistent Wald tests of model fit for all regression models, including the point-and-click ability to test the significance of subsets of regressors.
• A new Mantel-Haenszel stratified chi-square test of the type typically used to evaluate differential item function on tests. As with all AM procedures, this one provides significance tests that are appropriate for complex sample designs.
Restrictions on number of variables or observations.
Primary methods used for variance estimation.
Mainly through Taylor Series methods. Methods based on replication (Jackknife, Balanced repeated, Bootstrap) are available for some analyses.
General description of the “feel” of the software.
Windows menu-based interface.
Input: Data are read as SPSS .sav files, SAS transport files, or ASCII files with a data dictionary in a specific format (adapted to structuring variables for an educational test with scales and subscales). Newest (Beta-release) version accomodates a larger range of input and output formats.
Output to web browser, spreadsheet or plain text.
B/ The National Standard Methods employed by operatives of the Scottish Government, which include standard operating procedures (SOPs), algorithms and guidance notes, promote high quality practices and help to assure the comparability of diagnostic information obtained in analysis, were as follows:-
C. Corrigan on keyboard using index finger of both hands at the same time.
‘Roll up, roll up,get your statistics here’
Statistics, danm statistics.
They are published, we then pick the one that suits us.
In an era where Rangers and Hearts are skint, St Johnstone getting rid of a stand, Dunfermline closing one of theirs, attendances falling, Celtic home crowds dropping by the week,Scottish football is in crisis, we should maybe be concentrating on the football side of things, don’t you think.
We can call them Hons if Huns gets banned
—
The deadpan Welsh comedian, Milton Jones – you can see him regularly on Mock the Week and Have I Got News for You? – has a joke which goes: “When I got back from work the other day my wife was already home.
“I called out, ‘Hi, Hon!’
“It wasn’t a term of endearment – it’s just that my wife’s German.”
—
First Minister of Scotland Alex Salmond is walking into swamp over banning songs on terraces
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/scottish-premier/8897701/First-Minister-of-Scotland-Alex-Salmond-is-walking-into-swamp-over-banning-songs-on-terraces.html
Modren new Mantel-Haenszel stratified chi-square test is rubbish.
Ramie -hope you and yours are well.
truth4767 at 15:42
No reason why we can’t concentrate on a multitude of things. To the normal person, this is relatively easy.
As for cherry picking statistics, all I have done is a simple analysis of what was produced to enable comparisons. If Rangers would like to provide details of those arrested at Ibrox, we could see if they were better or worse behaved than Celtic supporters.
Hail Hail
Mort
IF Statistics.. Dinna Tell the Complete Story..
Then..
Why Hide ‘Em??
Maks sense tae me.
Kojo
Afternoon bhoys, damp but still hun free, sheer bliss.
Good stuff Paul.
………………
The reason scottish football is on it’s knees is due to the imbalance within the sfa and their interpretation of the rules, the hun must be superior, stop that and football can get back to being fair.
Off oot, shopping and a few copas de vino.
Take care and no talking to the hun.
HH
KTF
DBBIA
All is good here
Your and my friend is still kicking along
Has had a a wee bad spell through winter regard temp
But things seem to be back to normal
Cheers
Ramie
MORT,YOU ARE IMMORTAL!
Lovely bit of number-crunching.
truth4767 says:
18 November, 2011 at 15:42
post of the day !!
slabberin’ demented hun reaps what he sows
Just a perfect day .. you made me forget myself .. I thought I was someone nice someone good ….
MotherTuckingBigSuckingSmilesCSC
Liar1690
In modern Scotland you’re 4.5 times more likely to be the victim of sectarianism if you’re a Catholic. Unequivocal and shameful.
No wonder you utilise avoidance, Mmmmmmm.
Buenas Dias, TET
Ach, you’re right in your advice.
Woodwork squeaks and out come the freaks.