There was a fascinating and completely unfounded angle to the Daily Record’s story today about Celtic’s forthcoming AGM, “Celtic’s directors insist Rangers (sic) were dealt with fairly”.
Oh no they don’t. This is an incredible dose of poison to inject into the Celtic family.
The matter in question is a resolution before the AGM urging Celtic to write to the SFA and Uefa regarding club licencing for season 2011/12. As a result of this resolution Celtic’s written response to the AGM confirms that they questioned the SFA’s licensing at the time directly with the Association, a fact which had not previously been revealed. The matter was also raised with Uefa. Both bodies backed the SFA actions.
I knew how this played out at the time and I was keen for the matter to reach the AGM, where questions could be asked and responses given, but lines like “Celtic’s directors insist Rangers were dealt with fairly” are put out just to mess with you.
The Record addresses another point in the same article, “the Scottish champions are also acutely aware of how official action would heighten tensions between fans of the two clubs”. If you think Charles Green was the only one on the receiving end of threats and intimidation last year, when these matters came to light, you’re wrong.
Celtic pursued the licencing question as far as they were permitted to do, this is quite different than insisting Rangers (sic) were dealt with fairly. The SFA are not interested and Uefa are not interested. As a result of this resolution, this issue can be properly examined in front of the supporters.
The club’s public comments, or often, the lack of public comments, put the safety of their employees and supporters, which was already acutely in focus, first. Not so long ago office staff at Celtic had to go through training on how to open the mail following specific attacks.
Despite popular mythology, Celtic don’t control the SFA, re-orientating that organisation will take a while. The issue of licensing in 2011 was pursued as far as the club were allowed to do so. Get along to the AGM, look the board in the eye and ask your questions on this. Celtic also have a responsibility – and a lot of formal security advice – to staff, each other and all of us when it comes to public comment. This is the world Celtic has to operate in. The sooner we are out of here the better.
Sean Fallon: Celtic’s Iron Man, drink in the legend:
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kojo
14:50 on 14 October, 2013
Ah suppose there is always a first time for everything……can’t believe i’m actually agreeing with you….LOL
AWE NAW
I have no problem with that.
I certainly don’t fancy you impolitely disagreeing with me!
Still sore from the last time…..
bobby murdoch’s curled-up winklepickers forza oscar and mackenzie
15:02 on 14 October, 2013
Beter to keep some money in bank during this recession.?
Does anyone really think our majority shareholder is a Celtic supporter? This is a business for him. And he wants to maximise the potential of this business. That is why he made teh comments he did about you know whos and would of course prefer to see more matches of that sort.
Kojo
14:50 on 14 October, 2013
You are missing a trick here. Celtic only have so much say at the SFA. I think Paul mentioned this in his blog.
It greatly strengthens Celtic’s hands in meetings on vital issues of change of SFA processes and its relationships with the SPFL, if PL can cite an angry group of shareholders wanting his head on a plate when in fact the real heads are in the SFA.
It also tells the SFA and supporters of all clubs that have AGMs that if the supporter/shareholders are dissatisfied with the SFA governance and that mis governance might have an affect on the value of individual’s shares then the SFA cannot carry on in the same unaccountable manner as before.
Accountability at the SFA is the aim, because without it they will do as they please. You are always going to get some voices blaming the Board, but that should not stop supporter/shareholders asking legitimate questions via legitimate channels and this is what is taking place here.
Step back and look at the bigger picture.
What does everyone actually want to happen?
1- No Rangers whatsoever? As long as we are in Scotland, that does seem too boring. Probably correct but very boring.
2- Sporting penalties for financial doping? What about Hearts? What about the old celtic board knocking 5,000 off every home gate all through the eighties? Was that financial doping?
At first I wanted to see them stripped of their titles in the 9iar, but it’s too complicated – a total cluster – and as I say, the old celtic Desmond White era Celtic were not saints on this matter either. We’d be hypocrites.
What I’d like to see is for Rangers to apologise for their old sectarian signing policy, to apologise for the past 3 years, and for them to renounce any anti-catholic/irish sentiment within their support. I believe they have tried to steer their support on that last point (SDM did), but failed. Still, try again. And pay off everyone stiffed by them.
As a last gesture, letting in all away supporters for free for a few years would be a good thing.
I’d like Celtic to say that we’ll keep politics out of football also, and ask the fans to find a proper forum for singing songs about the BOTOB etc outwith football. We should be proud of our roots, but songs about armies are just ridiculous at football games. And it’s provocative.
Rangers exist. Get over it. They are not going away. Peace and reconciliation should be the order of the day. I’d like to see both clubs jointly tackling the ill feeling and latent aggression, on a consistent and sustained basis. I’d like to see an old firm select take on the rest of the Scottish league as a starter in a friendly. Mix the supporters together. It is important for society that the sting is taken out a little here.
One last point, i don’t believe the internet sites reflect fan’s views as much as people think. Outwith the online community, (without any evidence) I don’t think that the views of fans are as ‘hardline’, on both sides.
YGMS ya bass – you’re getting it!
Paul67.
Have cfc asked to refer this to the cfc?
It would appear not as the resolution has been amended to omit this important detail.
Why has it been omitted?
In case anyone has missed this….
Spiers on Saturday: does the crown fit King after his conviction?
Published on 12 October 2013
Spiers on Saturday
Amid the euphoria over Dave King’s anticipated return to Rangers, possibly as club chairman, here is the question to be posed: is it of no concern that King has just been convicted in a South African High Court for non-payment of tax, on 41 different counts, and has had to pay out 706m South African rand (more than £44.6m) following his guilty plea?
For many Rangers fans, the answer appears to be: “No, not really.” Other Ibrox followers, however, will have reservations.
King is a fascinating and perfectly approachable man. I have interviewed him on two occasions and both were very agreeable experiences. Yet the fact remains that his recent conviction in the South Gauteng High Court in Johannesburg exposed a catalogue of wrong-doing which resulted in the South African authorities fairly throwing the book at him.
It had been a long-running saga, stretching back at least seven years, but the timing of King’s guilty plea and conviction six weeks ago is not irrelevant to Rangers. A veil needed drawn over the case, good or bad, from King’s point of view, given his desire to be involved again at Ibrox.
His list of felonies makes for grisly reading. The courts had petitions for 41 different breaches of the Income Tax Act by King. Earlier indictments on money-laundering and racketeering were not pursued by the state. Facing the prospect of jail, King pled guilty and reached a “plea and sentence” agreement, whereby the court convicted him on all counts accepted his pay-back deal. In pleading guilty, King agreed to pay back a hefty sum which reveals the degree of his evasions. In South Africa, King’s reputation has been severely tarnished.
In conceding his dues, King faced two options: a plea-and-sentence deal, in which he would pay back the money, or jail. He opted for the former. The wording of ‘The State versus David Cunningham King’ case, as set out by South Africa’s National Prosecuting Authority, actually makes pretty scary reading: “The accused [King] was sentenced to a fine of R80,000 [£5058] or 24 months’ imprisonment on each of the 41 counts, being the maximum sentence provided for the Income Tax Act. The effective sentence, confirmed in ‘the agreement’, is a fine of R3,280,000 [£207,395] or 984 months (82 years) imprisonment.”
On top of this, King was also made to pay R8.75m (£553,079) to the country’s Criminal Assets Recovery Account, following their pursuit of him. As part of the punishment, the authorities also sold off a number of King’s private properties, including a private jet, a game farm and a wine farm, in order to recoup their money. The courts also “restrained” three other residential properties until the case was resolved.
This is quite a toll, ending in multiple convictions in a South African High Court. Yet, given the euphoria of some Rangers fans at King’s mooted return, all of it seems to matter not very much.
Let us not get into ironic gags about Rangers and tax avoidance. Let us stick to the matter of King himself. Is it right and proper for a man with such recent convictions to be the new king-maker of Ibrox? Could such a figure be convincingly installed as Rangers chairman?
Some fans, I believe, will feel uncomfortable at this. Of course, he has many things going for him, not least his fabulous wealth. When you look at the amount King is paying to the South African government, you only appreciate anew how rich he is.
I mean, how much wealth do you have to accumulate in order to cough up £44m in unpaid back taxes? King is super-rich and is a Rangers supporter. For some fans, that is maybe about all that matters.
He also ticks other boxes. Those in the media who engage with him find him personable and charming. As Sir David Murray proved, those qualities tend to go a long way in winning over those who might otherwise harbour some doubts.
I know this to be true myself, having interviewed King amid the idyll of Augusta National Golf Club, which he visits regularly. His charm offensives are pretty impressive. Journalists very easily take to him.
It may be that King, even if he does re-engage with Rangers in a hands-on role, remains a pretty distant figure. His home is South Africa and, given his love of that country, it is hard to see him leaving it to return to Scotland. In which case, a bit like Dermot Desmond at Celtic, his might be a subtle, under-the-radar sort of influence.
The controversy of King’s potential return – if indeed anyone views it as a controversy – is also set to embroil the Scottish Football Association. Their “fit and proper persons” rule is one that is endlessly debated, with the SFA claiming it is the clubs’ duty to enforce, while critics of the SFA claim the governing body is weak in terms of its approach to dubious figures.
King’s previous involvement, having been a director in the run-up to Rangers insolvency and liquidation in 2012, is also now cause for debate.
The main question remains: is he the right man for Rangers? In recent months King has had a wretched time of it, his reputation left battered by his very visible high court case.
The reputation of Rangers has been damaged enough in recent years. Will King’s return only add to that damage?
My predictions for the AGM
1. There will be a question about why the peas served in the corporate section are frozen rather than fresh.
2. The motion will be defeated by about 98%. Those 98% of shares being held by half a dozen people.
Sorry,not going with any of this.The Record,as well as other tabloids and newspapers not reporting the true story.The statement from Celtic,asking fans to drop this question at the AGM,is ridiculous.To ask fans to go on blind faith alone is equally ridiculous.Since the hun demise we have debated,argued,fought with one another about what our club should or should not be doing.Never a word from our board.All supposed to have gone on in secrecy.Does that then mean that everything we have learned about the “Wee tax case”when,as we are led to believe,the huns should not have been granted a licence to compete in CL,is not true?.I find it incredible that UEFA would ignore the fact that the SFA blatantly lied to them,and in fact cheated.Just how far did our board take this,if at all.We dont know because our club have kept it to themselves.
If we were met with stonewalling by the SFA,why did we let Ogilvie retain the post unopposed?Unbelievable.
If members of the staff were under threat,why did we not know?.Unbelievable.
Talk of Celtic going “Elsewhere”to play,a smokescreen.We are going nowhere soon.
Again all this talk of a “Hun backlash”is absurd.Are we to allow cheating on a scale we have witnessed,and been victims of,so as just not to upset the knuckledraggers?FFSWe may as well throw the towel in.
I called Dermot Desmond a few names a while back,which did not go down too well with some.My opinion of him has not changed,but at least he was honest in what he told us.He wants the hun back,so all this handwringing and”What else could we do”does not hold water with me.
When all this broke,we were not alone.A wee bit of lobbying could have got enough support to make UEFA sit up and act.We are now led to believe we did everything possible.I dont believe this for a moment.If you do,fair enough.
Throughout the saga, we have been rejoined to trust the executive.
My experience has taught me never to trust the executive.
My distrust was reinforced having spent some time on an executive board.
67HEAVEN
No problem with financial probity.
But not to the point of obsession.
gallowgate mad squad
Peace and reconciliation……not without justice.
gallowgate mad squad
Sorry,but that whole post is nonsense.No offence.
Auldheid,
A wee suggestion (assuming you haven’t done so already)
Would you consider sending every Celtic FC board member his own copy of your excellent crystal meth article prior to the AGM?
That way (if the opportunity arose) they could be asked to explain where you are wrong in your deliberations.
If, alternatively, flaws in the case you put forward cannot be found then it begs the question why the board are against pursuing this.
As I understand it, a UEFA body exists CBFC which is in place to examine claims like this.
Celtic’s board, as a minimum, should be in a position to confirm that as part of the notion that this matter has been taken as far as it can go have raised it formally with CBFC.
Do you think the Charlotte Fakes revelations (way after 2011) regarding Regan’s draft press announcement, his subsequent rebuff from RFC, his acceptance of their advice/instruction and his cosy wee dinner with Whyte,Russell and Ogilvie should be included in any info sent to them? Would all of this be enough for Celtic’s board to re-open their interest in this?
Regards
medtim
gallowgate mad squad
15:07 on 14 October, 2013
You certainly do do ‘comedy’ ….. have you been away for a good few decades..?
IMO or course!
bobby murdoch’s curled-up winklepickers forza oscar and mackenzie
15:15 on 14 October, 2013
Agree…..but we are nowhere near that point yet..
Dermot Desmond has always been a supporter of the Old Firm, his comments last year about the ‘great history’ of the Huns and referring to their ‘returning’ to the top tier only reinforced that. This was always going to guide the actions of our PLC.
One thing I am absolutely sure of is that there will be a Celtic FC long after the SMSM are dead and buried. To hell with them all, including their phone-ins.
Hope to God that Celtic fans avoid the phone-ins otherwise they are playing straight into the media’s hands by deflecting the issue away from them…..at their time of real need.
67HEAVEN
Shooooorly you don’t mean that it can get worse?
Och,sod it. I’ll pig out on the Quality Street this weekend and send them up the tin.
At least then they can point to it and say they are better than the old board.
Bobby Murdoch’s
Pal…Ah am well Aware of your Feelings.
Ah know that Ye Admire the Board’s Herculean Financial Performance in these tough times..
Noo How Celtic, are going tae Spend thur Hard ,but well won… Gains, is No Something tae which Either of Us are Privy..
So far.. Celtic Hiv spent some… Mebbe,no enuff tae Please Some of the Ithers oan Here..
and
They hiv Brought in..
Virgil, Boeriggter, Amido, Bitel, Pukki..
That is a Fair Intake..in Ma Opinion. and the Board Probably Splashed..
SAY.. Six or Seven Million on that Loat.
And So far..well.. So Good..
It looks tae me that They Hiv Spent Wisely.
We gotta gie these New Guys at least a Season tae ..well.. Season.
Noo.. Neil, probably knows if we Need . Further Team Strengthening..
We must wait Until the January Windae is Open,before we shall Know whit Neil’s Decision is oan that Wan..
Ah wid Imagine that We still a Man Short in oor Striking Dept.
And. Possibly a Left Back and anither Wing Man..
Jist a Guess..
Anyway..
Suffice tae Say , Ah am Satisfied wi how oor Board has Opened the Purse Strings..
so far. Ah hiv Not wan Complaint.
Obviously, You n Ithers Dae..
That is O.K. By me..if ye hiv.
But, Ah kin tell ye that Ah am Very Satisfied wi How the Celtic Board hiv backed Neil.
The Board wull Nevah be Accused of Over Spending. That’s Fur Sure..
‘
But…
Ah hiv No complaints ,as far as their desire tae watch Oor Funds,and tae Be Frugal and Thrifty.
Ah like That, aloater!
All in all Ah am Very Pleased with How things are Going, at ..Parkhead oan the Clyde.. these Days.
Kojo
Still, Laughin’
Yes sorry for wanting an end to Glasgow’s ‘holy war’. Don’t want my son growing up in this poisonous atmosphere.
BMCUWP
I agree with all the stated aims that you mentioned in the last post and as you state the resolution will be killed off as we all expected.
I think we (those involved in the resolution) should now be looking at how we can increase our leverage to obtain what we want (justice and fairness). Which can no longer be expected from those whose job it is to govern the game of football. They are all infected by feeding at the same trough for too long. The incestuous symbiotic nature of it all becoming highly exposed( the SFA, UEFA and Celtic plc. possibly even the SPFL clubs) Its understandable that they dont want to rock the boat and dont want to be the ones to do the rocking for fear of being removed from the trough
We now need to consider operating outwith the closed shop of the footballing stratosphere.
Legal action (not in the name of Celtic) but in the name of A group. How can we circumvent that action so that UEFA cannot take aim at Celtic or other teams within the Scottish league to try and prevent it from happening ?
A company ?
A newly formed company ?
This is the next starting point and what we should now be anticipating.
HH
As far as I can see more and more Celtic supporters are falling into line and perpetuating the myth that they’re the same club.
They’re not. They’re a new club that has managed to attract the supporters of the old club by buying their stadium and most of their players. The fact that the fans behave the same or worse than they did when supporting their old team doesn’t make them same team.
Stop using phrases like ‘they got away with it’ etc. If being put out of business is getting away with it, then let’s hope the new club gets away with it too.
Not the ole CQN frozen peas debate?
If I could type I would be semi-dangerous. I meant in my opinion of course in addendum to my comment above.
ernie lynch
15:14 on 14 October, 2013
I hope there’s one about the pies also…….LOL
When i saw various links on twitter to the retard story, i chuckled and then thought theres the CQN leader today, Phil will probably have something out today as well..
We laugh at the zombies the way they are fed PR spin, are we not seeing some spin here again?
Why did the board not speak out publicly regarding the licence given the fact it cost the club at least £10 – 12 million, as if they expected anything out of the SFA they were hardly going to incriminate themselves.
After the LNS whitewash, not a word said, all the years of EBT cheating just to be swept away letting them off scot free, and our custodians didnt feel the need to speak out at this unprecedented cheating?
When Dave King is installed as Sevco Zombie chairman (another SFA fit and proper whitewash) and in 2 years they are back in the SPL (and they will be), normal business will resume, honest mistakes will return and all will be well in planet PLC, with the lack of evidence to think anything otherwise what else are we to think.
The PLC board paying mealy mouthed service to placate the support so old firm PLC can resume at the first opportunity.
gebhoy
weeminger
15:26 on 14 October, 2013
Great post….and oh so true…….they’re deed
Auld hied
Interesting Crystal Myth article – thanks.
Has this been shared with other fanzines of other clubs as this must be of great interest to clubs who will see their current position / income diminished by a re emerged ‘Rangers’.
It also not an issue about ‘Rangers’ it is about principle of fairness and due process as it should be applied to any club contravening rules?
Very interesting article and comments, the most pertinent in my view are that staff at the club, outwith those who we already know about, may have been in any kind of danger from threats and abuse. This at the same time as many of our younger and possibly more boisterous fans have been subjected to a law, arrests and other unsavoury circumstances that have not been seen in Scotland for goodness knows how many years. It is easy for me to say this from abroad but I believe that as a support, we should not tolerate this blatant aggression, intimidation and vile hostility in tacit silence. I think that our board has done a very commendable job in recent difficult times but that there are also times to show leadership and call out something that is badly wrong. I think the circumstances discussed in today’s article show that something is indeed badly wrong with society in Scotland.
In response to Kojo, the club is now like any other company with shareholders, if those shareholders have a gripe with certain issues then it is right and fair that they be raised and discussed at an AGM, I happen to believe that the cheating goes back way farther than the EBT years, probably right through their 9.
I’ll finish with a short story from a friend who ran the line on the main stand side at Hampden in the early 90’s at the Celtic v Dundee BP Youth Cup Final, we won easily in the end but had a young winger called Andy O’Brien who ran amuck that night, towards the end of the first half, he went on another run into the box before being almost being halved in two, 10,000 at Hampden stopped for the penalty, Bobby Tait waved play on, I asked the linesman after the game about the incident, said the ref, you would need to shoot one of those bastards before I would give them a penalty!
If that’s what the folks higher up the tree think of us then it doesn’t take to much to work out what the lower levels think.
No more acceptance or appeasement.
‘Uefa are not interested’
Paul, if Uefa are uninterested in one of their member associations (SFA) applying the rules properly. Then what’s the point in joining another association under the same Uefa banner? I’ve been desperate for Celtic to get out of Scottish Football for years now, but if we were genuinely active on this issue. Then surely there are other avenues available for the club to pursue (perhaps court). The SFA or Uefa may not be interested in properly applying the rules, but legally this has to be an open and shut case. You say ‘Celtic pursued the licencing question as far as they were permitted to do’ Really? I’m not so sure!
Ok, so a fair few here suggest Celtic getting out of Scotland is the way forward (me included) however, there is one major caveat….what would happen to Celtic Park?
I couldn’t imagine us still playing there if we were not part of Scottish football. If we are treated like shit now, can you imagine how many “blind-eyes” would be turned while the local “natives” would then have carte blanche to cause mayhem.
That being the case, the alternative would be to sell CP, but to who? The land is not worth much and would raise very little cash to build elsewhere.
Talking of elsewhere, where would that be, and how many of the existing fans from around Glasgow would continue to travel to say…Southern Ireland?
It really is a shitty situation. The game in Scotland has lost it’s credibility forever.
I’m quite content that I’ll never personally physically see that new club in the SPL, and I’m glad I saw all three of Celtic’s last goals inside CP against the old Rangers.
By virtue of the fact that it’s old club’s support, for me, raises a business issue and we all know deep down Celtic will not refuse business, even when the customers wreck havoc inside Celtic Park, and employees and fans are placed in danger.
They should have been banned from 30/08/10 – after which belated questions had to asked
by a member of the public in the Irish parliament, about the atrocious FS. Instead Celtic embarrassingly silent, and by natural justice, Rangers self combusted.
Celtic PLC are lilly livered money grabbers, intent on self profit and stuff the cheated fans, we now live in Sevconia, and we’re told this is the world we have to operate in.
Quite, quite nauseating for the future of Celtic fans in this country.
What does obfuscation mean?
AWE NAW
Legal action by a group of concerned football fans is an interesting idea.
Bloody expensive though!
However,if the group comprised fans of various-preferably ALL bar the obvious-it would render the threat of UEFA sanctions pretty meaningless.
The concept is sound in theory. The practice may be more difficult.
How do you get UEFA to recognise the group?
How do you get the group recognised in law to even present a case? It would in all likelihood be tossed aside as an irrelevance,a malicious prosecution not worthy of court time.
It’s a very difficult road to go down. Fortunately,I’m not in charge of it,or I’d have ploughed ahead at the first red light!
I suspect someone somewhere has the way forward for this.
I really hope so….
Auldheid
Hiya,pal..
Nice tae greet ye..
Man.. Let me Tell Ye.. Right Aff.
You and .. Ah guess.. Ninety Nine Percent of this Forum..
And Kojo. are Far , Far Apart.. oan How We View this..
Cetlic versus Rangers Stramash..and Awe the Ramifications that that Entails.
Me..?
AH DON’T EVEN THINK ABOOT THE RANGERS.
Fur Me.. Ah only Believe in Hiving Happy Thoughts.
And..it is a Lead Pipe Cinch that.. Including, in Ma daily Thoughts..
Wit the Rangers ur up tae,this Day..or this Night…
Is Soitenly Not the First Thing that Pops Intae Ma Mind..
Frankly, Ah don’t Gie a Continental.. whit Happens tae them.
If They Return tae oor League… and We are Forced tae Face them Wance again in Mortal Combat..
Well.. Woop De Doo.
When that Happens.. Then …. Ah wull Handle that , when it Happens
Meanwhile..
Ah don’t Want tae Even.. THINK aboot THEM..
And Ah Don’t…
You Guys Keep Picking at Auld Scabs… and You Know As wel as AH dae..
that.. a Scab wull Never Get a Chance tae Go Away,if ye keep oan Annoying It.. wit yer.. Pick , Pick ,Picking..
Ah canny Tell You Fellows how tae conduct yer Lives.. but..
If ye pardon Me, saying..’
The Rangers?
FUGGETTABOOT THEM!
Pit is This Way..
Ye should be ENJOYING THUR ABSENCE!
But, every single day.. oan Here..’
It’s
The Rangers are This.. Coisty Is daeing That..
Gie It a Break guys..
But.. Ye wullnae..
Fur ye are .. well..Ah Hate tae say this. .but Ah Must
Ye are OBSESSED wi’ Hating the Rangers.. and ye Jist Canny Let it Go.
And .. Ye wullnae.. eethur!
That’s fur Sure!
Ah am wasting Ma time , talking aboot this..
Kojo
Stilll,Laughin’