I loved the Newco statement from yesterday evening, it betrayed the reality that they’ve lost their nerve in the face of panic among fans and a complete lack of knowledge of what to do about History overtaking them.
They cited that the SPFL had a conference call on the subject of the Court of Session Oldco EBT ruling, but quickly got onto the subject that “our Club’s (sic.) history, including its many successes, is beyond debate”.
Those of us who supported another team during the EBT decade know well that history is beyond debate. We paid money to see those competitions and there will be no denying what happened.
At a stroke Newco took a debate, which was hitherto the exclusive domain of fan comment and the occasional journalist repeating the words of well-paid Newco and Ladbrokes SPFL PR team, that there was “no appetite” for title stripping, and made it a subject football people could legitimately be drawn on. In short, they made Rangers historical successes THE debate.
I’ve spoken to Celtic on various potential public statement matters over the years. They don’t always get it right, but they know when to shut their mouth and win support for their objectives, at the cost of taking flak for not making grandstanding public comments.
Tommo Blog.
While many paid to inform us were repeating paid PR as news, Channel 4’s Alex Thomson had no qualms calling-out the cheats in his blog yesterday: Rangers cheated at football: the fraudulent silverware must go. And that was just the blog title.
Oh Mr Black! The Rangers v HMRC First Tier Tribunal was held in private, with witness names given anonymity in the written report. Mr Black, the name of a key figure at Rangers, who signed and sold up to 400 footballers, and, I guess, took a senior role from late 1988 until 6 May 2011, provided damning evidence against the former football club at the Tribunal.
Thomson writes:
“Why did this powerful but busy character introduce a scheme of wholesale – and now proven to be unlawful – avoidance of NI and income tax?
Why – so the club could gain advantage on the pitch, of course: sporting advantage. By attracting and keeping players they otherwise could not afford. How do we know?
Because the powerful but talkative “Mr Black” was good enough to spill the beans to the Tax Tribunal: “Mr Black did not consider the Trust as a means of tax avoidance, but rather as a means of retaining and rewarding loyal employees. So far as Rangers was concerned it enabled the Club to attract players who would not otherwise have been obtainable.”
Sporting advantage.”
““Mr Black” didn’t see it as a tax wheeze at all, he said, but a football wheeze. Sadly for him if you’re now found to have been cheating the taxman you’re also cheating football – so now his unfortunate admission is a smoking gun
There is more: “As for Mr Black, he denied that the scheme was for tax avoidance in cross-examination, though he went on to describe the scheme as ‘a method of us acquiring, especially football wise, better players in a more cost effective manner than we would be able to do so’; that the club had been ‘very ambitious at that time’; and ‘it was seen as a correct and proper way for us to proceed’; that Rangers ‘have been very successful, because we’ve been able to attract players of a certain standard that, perhaps, we may not have been able to otherwise’.”
One more time: “especially football wise better players in a more cost effective manner”. Sporting. Advantage.”
“It is time Campbell Ogilvie explained his conduct – the man who played a part in the tax avoidance and personally benefited before going on to be SFA President.
It is time Sir David Murray – the conductor of this disastrous orchestration, by overseeing EBTs at Rangers – is similarly held to account for what he did and now, why Rangers did it for advantage on the field: cheating.
Above all, it is time the SPFL members came out from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen and beyond to denounce cheating as cheating and take action as fans from Kelso to Thurso are begging them to do.
All the titles and silverware from all the years Rangers cheated at football, as they cheated at tax, must be null and void and wiped from the record.
Let nobody try and tell me it isn’t the same club – I have always said it is and now Rangers have to take the consequence of that reality right on the chin.
Turnbull Hutton RIP – how your godforsaken Scottish game needs you now.”
‘Mr Black’ really has dropped Sir David Murray in it. I hope he stays away from Charlotte Square. This situation reminds me of that scene from Blazing Saddles, where the sheriff turns his gun on himself. Alerts in advance for the use of racial pejoratives, appropriate for the environment, in this clip:
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Kenny Mcintyre on twitter saying that tonight’s show will have someone who will put up a very interesting argument for not stripping titles, he’s not said who it is yet, Chris Graham, uncle fester, Richard Wilson ? or will it be someone with a Celtic background like Neil Lennon.
A club and a company were combined to make one entity, so when the company was liquidated the club ceased to exist.
The intangible spirit/culture of that club is still with us and indeed never left.
They cannot separate their culture from a club that ceased to exist so they insist that it never died.
Another delusion from them.
It is great sport watching them invent spin on top of spin to justify irreconcilable agenda.
One club for history and trophies but two clubs for debt and cheating.
Scottish Football really has suffered enough and we could do with a Truth & Reconciliation Commission.
Fat chance though.
to extend views expressed in previous thread
All he ex Celtic Legends who are advocating non stripping of titles are doing so out of a sense of their own professional pride – ‘i was as good as any rangers player’ mentality….
Forgive them their stupidity and egos – it prevents them from considering the real issues at stake.
West End of East End
I for one would love to hear from Paul Baxendale-Walker again :)
West end,
Lance Armstrong :)
HH
They’re gonna get away with it are’nt they.
Guys like Paul Lambert are not going to burn bridges. They want the fees for appearing on BBC Scotland or Sky.
I also agree that there is some pride to get over. Nobody wants to be seen as being a sore loser.
CULTSBHOY. Maybe they are in the Ludge I wouldnt rule it out.H.H.
I don’t understand why anyone gives a fig about an ex footballers opinion on the ongoing pantomime at ibrox.
Does their OPINION really carry any weight anywhere?
If the huns appeal will the law lords take into account what any of these ex Celtic/rangers people think or say about the legal predicament the huns find themselves in again?
Naw, I don’t think so either.
These people are being paid cash to say what suits the smsm.
Don’t buy it or listen to it.
I don’t.
BURGAS HOOPS. They think they are and if they do Scottish football is finished. H.H.
All this putting up ex Celtic players and others to say no stripping of titles nothing to see here is a red herring their views and opinions are their own and mean zip in the great scheme of things. If they were legally or financially trained I might take a bit of notice but after listening to Paul Lambert last night gies peace – that was cringeworthy. What’s the expression? “Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought of as a fool than open it and remove all doubt” Not your finest hour Paul. H H Hebcelt
Philbhoy sorry did’nt see your post there agree completely.
“Geordie Munro”
Whit book’s that, The Geordie Munro Guide To Personal Security??
“See if that Geordie Munro calls us ‘Rangers’ wan mair time……”
“Ah know, Ye can hear the quotation marks in his tone ae voice!”
There are insolvency laws about a company in liquidation setting up a new business with too similar a name.
Suppose you think that shouldn’t apply to them either?
Sometimes when I’m on CQN my computer freezes and I get the following message on the screen –
“Celtic Quick News is not responding due to a long running script”
I then need to log out (ctrl alt del) and log back in again to get the site to work.
Is it my computer.
It’s desk top and the problem only started after I had Windows 10 installed.
Anyone any ideas please?
The SFA should be destroyed the criminals imprisoned for tax fraud, the stenographers sacked, Sevco kicked out of the game, Ipox sold to pay HMRC, then titles and trophy’s should be awarded to the teams that play by the rules. In addition if the SFA can’t run the game fairly Celtic should petition UEFA to find us a proper League to compete in.
Hail Hail.
Joe Filippis Haircut
Aye, it’s on it knees now Joe.
Imho the governing bodies wil never take the titles away, the HUN IS scoddish football as far as they’re concerned.
We are just upitty tims and need to kept in place……………..again only my opinion.
Big decisions for me next season regarding CTV subscriprion/Oversea’s SB.
Windows 10 was not compatible with a lot of apps I use and I needed the techie guys on it for what was all in all, quite a long time.
Oh and totally inconvenient too!
Hebcelt
I agree wi’ yours too!
Take care!
jungle jim
Hopefully I am not going against my own suggestion here but what would CQNers prefer:
1) Stripped of their titles/trophies but Newco are considered to be the same Club;
2) Oldco keep the titles but the present Club are declared a new Club
——————————————————————————————————-
I don’t understand why this is presented as a either/or choice?
The new club has never won a title – nothing to strip.
The old club should be stripped of the titles and Asterisks Of Shame added to the record.
No?
Better to keep your mouth shut than end up concussed, minus several teeth and somehow be judged to have given away a penalty.
Celtic (4-3-1-2): Gould; McNamara, Stubbs, Tebily, Riseth; Lambert (Mjallby, 45), Petrov (Blinker, 57), Burley; Berkovic; Wright (Burchill, 78), Viduka. Substitutes not used: Kharin (gk), Moravcik.
dbbia/eyalberkovic’sfinesthourCSC
Philbhoy & Hebcelt
Unfortunately, the footballing sanctions will be decided by footballing bodies not law lords. We all know that the SFA and SPFL will squirm out of the responsibility to take action if they get half a chance – professional fudgers (just double checked spelling to avoid any upset ;)). Therefore, I think the prevailing narrative in the msm (and in the internet-bampotsphere) does have importance. The blazers will try to hide behind any excuse the msm can come up with.
What would damage the fragile hun mentality more, some asterisks next to the dead clubs stolen titles in an attempt to shame the unashamed, or the knowledge that Celtic are going for 16 in a row ?
Hail Hail.
I nominate “Bampotosphere” for CQN Word Of The Week.
Anyway, here’s a collector’s item for you – a Paul Telfer goal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr3bVliEx9E
Philboy
Stop using IE ….only TBB is,allowed too
HH
Saw this on TSFM, Neil Doncaster
Financial Fair Play
Football and finance have often sat uneasily together. But with some of our clubs under intense financial pressure, it is no surprise that questions about ‘financial fair play’ have once again been raised in the context of Scottish football.
Crucial to an understanding of financial fair play, is an appreciation of why it is vital that clubs live within their means. This blog is an attempt to set out what is meant by ‘financial fair play’, and why prompt payment of players, the taxman and other member clubs is so important to football as a whole.
‘Financial fair play’ is a phrase that is often trotted out in football circles. It was one of 11 key values presented by UEFA President Michel Platini to the 2009 UEFA Congress. Its stated aim was to “restore well-being to the European club game”.
But what does ‘financial fair play’ really mean? UEFA’s explanation, in 2010, was that the concept would require clubs to balance their books over the medium term, not spend more than they earn, and operate within their financial means.
This is all seen as important for one key reason: because any club that is spending more on players than they can afford, is automatically gaining a sporting advantage over every other club it competes with. Whether the precise system of measurement used by UEFA is perfect is a moot point. But the logic behind the principle however is, I think, broadly sound. And it is this same principle that explains the position of the SPL.
To turn a blind eye, to allow clubs to continually fail to make prompt payments as they fall due, would be to allow those clubs to gain an unfair sporting advantage over all those other clubs that pay their players, the taxman and other clubs on time. That is one of the reasons why, whenever the SPL receives a request from players to adjudicate on their contracts, it has a duty to do so.
The fundamental basis of any football league is that all member clubs are treated equally. But, increasingly, leagues across the world are going further. In England, for example, the Football League routinely imposes a player embargo on clubs who fail to pay their players in full and on time. And, in League Two, clubs have accepted limits on the amounts that they can spend, relative to their income.
The whole issue of ‘financial fair play’ will no doubt continue to be developed across the whole of football. In the meantime, it is vital that the Scottish Premier League continue to treat all member clubs even-handedly.
It may put the SPL in the uncomfortable position of having to rule against member clubs in certain instances. Whenever we are requested by professional players to adjudicate on their contracts, for example, we should continue to do so. And, where appropriate, to rule in the players’ favour and to make orders for on-time payment by our member clubs.
The integrity of the entire League – and the long-term interests of all 12 member clubs within it – demands that we do just that.
More widely though, it is important that we keep the whole issue of financial fair play firmly in the spotlight. Improving our rule book and making it less likely that our member clubs end up in financial difficulty in the first place should continue to be a priority. And with this in mind, all 12 SPL member clubs will meet this Monday. On the agenda will be our existing rules on financial fair play and whether our current rule book needs improvement in the face of the financial challenges being faced by several member clubs.
If agreement in principle is reached, this could mean our clubs voting on new, tougher, rules on financial fair play at a general meeting, either in April or July this year. It will be a difficult debate. But it is vital that we do not shy away from these issues or bury our heads in the sand.
It may be uncomfortable to address these thorny problems head-on. But the long-term health and prosperity of Scottish football demands that we do just that.
Neil Doncaster
Chief Executive, Scottish Premier League
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NatKnow on 10th November 2015 2:49 pm
I nominate “Bampotosphere” for CQN Word Of The Week.
————————————————————–
I’ll settle for CQN Word Of The Next 5 Minutes
Ghuys mump about the team now but the McNamara/Stubbs/Tebily /Riseth quartet must have been a real Sieve for the connoisseur.
Hoopslegend Oliver Tebily keeping big Johann out of the team!
Beatbhoy,
Yer aff on one again.
Your point is based on your perception that you believe our club think they are the same club because we didn’t use their official title in a news item.
My point is that our official title is rarely used these days but no-one thinks of us as a different club.
And don’t get me started on those cheeky scamps called Airdrieonians
Will the fifth star above the badge change to a *?
Somebody best let Big Mike know
Davidopolous
I did say in my post “if the huns appeal”.
So I am assuming law lords/legal people would hear the appeal.
Not Mr Dungcaster and Co.
Philbhoy
Yeah, but we are talking about title stripping – judges don’t have power over that.
Understand what you mean with regard to Tax Case.
okay … my hearing time has been pushed back …. and since I posted this last night long after most of you were asleep (or you were just ignoring this as it is a load of pish….), I thought I’d retry it….
I have long sought after CQN”s grand unifying theory …. initially it was amortzation…. but while that addresses the financial aspects of what has happened, it doesn’t really account for the complete detachment of reality as shown by sevconians and the SFA (sorry for the redundancy) …..
so, the next great CQN notion was cognitive dissonance …. which is descriptitve, but not sufficiently ontological (dealing with reality and being) … in that it perhaps shows why/how zombies dont know they are dead, it doesn’t really explain (to a rational person, that is) how that can be the case ….
so, I give you Schrodinger’s cat ….
it is the best known example of superposition … a theory in quantum theory/physcis (the basis of modern physics whick seeks to explain how nature operates) that seeks to explain how something can be what it does not appear to be or cant be,… and to be so simultaneously …
‘In 1935, Schroderinger came up with an experiment .. (dont worry… he didn’t actually do this… it was just a theoretical experiment)
Schrödinger’s idea was to place cat in a box along with a device containing a vial of hydrocyanic acid. There is, in the chamber, a very small amount of hydrocyanic acid, a radioactive substance. If even a single atom of the substance decays during the test period, a relay mechanism will trip a hammer, which will, in turn, break the vial and kill the cat.
The observer cannot know whether or not an atom of the substance has decayed, and consequently, cannot know whether the vial has been broken, the hydrocyanic acid released, and the cat killed. Since we cannot know, according to quantum law, the cat is both dead and alive, in what is called a superposition of states. It is only when we break open the box and learn the condition of the cat that the superposition is lost, and the cat becomes one or the other (dead or alive). This situation is sometimes called quantum indeterminacy or the observer’s paradox: the observation or measurement itself affects an outcome, so that the outcome as such does not exist unless the measurement is made. (That is, there is no single outcome unless it is observed.)’
Now, what does this have to do with Celtic, you ask….
There are some, like me, who do not believe that Celtic PLC is doing anything to address the cheating/stand up for the club and it s fans, because we dont SEE them doing it …
There are others on here (like TD67 and JJSH) who believe they are doing something even though they similarly cant see them doing anything …
We disagree …and that causes tension on CQN ….. or so we thought ….
By adopting Schrodinger’s principle …. since, at the moment, most of us dont know whether the Club is doing something (the cat is alive) or nothing (the cat is dead)…. we are like the observers of the cat in the box…we are in a state of quantum indeterminancy … the club is both doing nothing and doing something… neither side is wrong….
there is no need for the happy clappers and the mineshafters to fight, and all is well with the CQN world.
Well, my work here is done…..
okay .. TD67 … now that we no longer disagree… how about that beer? :)
Awe Naw
I was using Microsoft Edge but switched to Mozilla Firefox.
It’s been OK for the last 5 minutes so far!
Natknow
I’m with you on that.
The League of Shameful Asterisks
The hilarious flip flopping from them…
“Nothing to do with us..” then “Leave our history alone”
is demented nonsense from a rudderless ship that is sinking.
It is strange how their basket case annual accounts chat has just fallen away too.
Davidopolous
I do believe other clubs are not happy. Four of the 6 clubs at an emergency SPFL meeting on Friday past are, allegedly not happy at all.
I think we should (all) keep our powder drive until the appeal date expires.
Then……………………..?
I can feel it in my watter……………………the huns are gone.
Praise be to God.
drive = dry
mike in toronto
Is there a Copenhagen interpretation to the Celtic Board’s actions?