I loved the Newco statement from yesterday evening, it betrayed the reality that they’ve lost their nerve in the face of panic among fans and a complete lack of knowledge of what to do about History overtaking them.
They cited that the SPFL had a conference call on the subject of the Court of Session Oldco EBT ruling, but quickly got onto the subject that “our Club’s (sic.) history, including its many successes, is beyond debate”.
Those of us who supported another team during the EBT decade know well that history is beyond debate. We paid money to see those competitions and there will be no denying what happened.
At a stroke Newco took a debate, which was hitherto the exclusive domain of fan comment and the occasional journalist repeating the words of well-paid Newco and Ladbrokes SPFL PR team, that there was “no appetite” for title stripping, and made it a subject football people could legitimately be drawn on. In short, they made Rangers historical successes THE debate.
I’ve spoken to Celtic on various potential public statement matters over the years. They don’t always get it right, but they know when to shut their mouth and win support for their objectives, at the cost of taking flak for not making grandstanding public comments.
Tommo Blog.
While many paid to inform us were repeating paid PR as news, Channel 4’s Alex Thomson had no qualms calling-out the cheats in his blog yesterday: Rangers cheated at football: the fraudulent silverware must go. And that was just the blog title.
Oh Mr Black! The Rangers v HMRC First Tier Tribunal was held in private, with witness names given anonymity in the written report. Mr Black, the name of a key figure at Rangers, who signed and sold up to 400 footballers, and, I guess, took a senior role from late 1988 until 6 May 2011, provided damning evidence against the former football club at the Tribunal.
Thomson writes:
“Why did this powerful but busy character introduce a scheme of wholesale – and now proven to be unlawful – avoidance of NI and income tax?
Why – so the club could gain advantage on the pitch, of course: sporting advantage. By attracting and keeping players they otherwise could not afford. How do we know?
Because the powerful but talkative “Mr Black” was good enough to spill the beans to the Tax Tribunal: “Mr Black did not consider the Trust as a means of tax avoidance, but rather as a means of retaining and rewarding loyal employees. So far as Rangers was concerned it enabled the Club to attract players who would not otherwise have been obtainable.”
Sporting advantage.”
““Mr Black” didn’t see it as a tax wheeze at all, he said, but a football wheeze. Sadly for him if you’re now found to have been cheating the taxman you’re also cheating football – so now his unfortunate admission is a smoking gun
There is more: “As for Mr Black, he denied that the scheme was for tax avoidance in cross-examination, though he went on to describe the scheme as ‘a method of us acquiring, especially football wise, better players in a more cost effective manner than we would be able to do so’; that the club had been ‘very ambitious at that time’; and ‘it was seen as a correct and proper way for us to proceed’; that Rangers ‘have been very successful, because we’ve been able to attract players of a certain standard that, perhaps, we may not have been able to otherwise’.”
One more time: “especially football wise better players in a more cost effective manner”. Sporting. Advantage.”
“It is time Campbell Ogilvie explained his conduct – the man who played a part in the tax avoidance and personally benefited before going on to be SFA President.
It is time Sir David Murray – the conductor of this disastrous orchestration, by overseeing EBTs at Rangers – is similarly held to account for what he did and now, why Rangers did it for advantage on the field: cheating.
Above all, it is time the SPFL members came out from Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen and beyond to denounce cheating as cheating and take action as fans from Kelso to Thurso are begging them to do.
All the titles and silverware from all the years Rangers cheated at football, as they cheated at tax, must be null and void and wiped from the record.
Let nobody try and tell me it isn’t the same club – I have always said it is and now Rangers have to take the consequence of that reality right on the chin.
Turnbull Hutton RIP – how your godforsaken Scottish game needs you now.”
‘Mr Black’ really has dropped Sir David Murray in it. I hope he stays away from Charlotte Square. This situation reminds me of that scene from Blazing Saddles, where the sheriff turns his gun on himself. Alerts in advance for the use of racial pejoratives, appropriate for the environment, in this clip:
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Awe Naw
I canny spell on IE or Firefox!
I take the blame for that!
He was a bit of a tomcat himself, ole clever clogs Erwin S.
davidoopolous …. Ha!
We ethicists tend to use CI in a different way from how I understand physicists to use it …. and I am trying to avoid ascribing blame …. but, you have piqued my curiosity ….. I have to run to court shortly, but will give your question the consideration it is due upon my return.
HH
ps…. I still think my earlier work on a celtic ecclesiology is a more profitable direction to pursue, but that one didn’t seem to gain much traction …. so I thought I’d try quantum physics instead. :)
Philbhoy
I agree that they will go of oldco in due course. Which doesn’t really matter the titles need to be stripped from the dead club anyway :)
I have also heard that some clubs are a bit miffed. Let’s see what happens.
Mike in Toronto
Posts like that should keep TD quiet!
‘The time-independent Schrödinger equation predicts that wave functions can form standing waves, called stationary states (also called “orbitals”, as in atomic orbitals or molecular orbitals). These states are important in their own right, and if the stationary states are classified and understood, then it becomes easier to solve the time-dependent Schrödinger equation for any state. The time-independent Schrödinger equation is the equation describing stationary states. (It is only used when the Hamiltonian itself is not dependent on time. However, even in this case the total wave function still has a time dependency.)’
– embdy wantin’ a clearer explanation will need to tune into BFDJ on Clyde the night.
DONTBRATTBAKKINANGER on 10TH NOVEMBER 2015 2:52 PM
Ghuys mump about the team now but the McNamara/Stubbs/Tebily /Riseth quartet must have been a real Sieve for the connoisseur.
More of a riddle than a sieve.
mike in toronto on 10th November 2015 2:57 pm
Your theory put me in mind of the famous “buttered cat paradox”:
A cat always lands on its feet.
Buttered toast always lands buttered side down.
Therefore if you strapped a slice of buttered toast to the cats back would the cat levitate?
The Geordie Munro
I’m no’ ‘aff’ on one, two, or three, mate.
I say that the needless reference to ‘Rangers’ in that article is evidence that our club is quite happy to give the impression that Sevco are the same club, whether they believe it privately or not. Had they simply referred to the League Cup semi-final, I’m sure given the screeds written before and after that farcical game that supporters would have remembered against whom we played.
Ernie asked if we recognised them as the same club, and I gave evidence that they appear so to do.
What evidence do you have that they don’t?
And how do you in conversation with a Sevconian get over to them that you’re not buying their pish if you give them what they want by calling them ‘Rangers’?
Notice you ignored my question about insolvency restrictions for new companies.
Still, enjoy your very Zen attitude to all this.
Philbhoy
Hope all’s well bud.
Would you please remind me what telly you chose and which store you bought it from.
Cheers.
From Oor Phil’s blog….
”
Alfie Birches
November 10, 2015 at 12:26 pm
Listening to SSB last night I heard Gerry McCulloch when talking to Thomas from London, assure listeners that NO crime had been committed by RFC because the police had not become involved.
Well Gerry, give it time.
The three Law Lords on 4/11/15 found in favour of HMRC in the case against MG subsidiary RFC Plc, in that the latter were guilty of illegally operating a tax avoidance Trust scheme for the purpose of tax evasion.
Gerry, there are two types of tax avoidance, legal avoidance such as ISA Etc and illegal avoidance, which is what RFC were found guilty of.
Illegal tax avoidance is another phrase for tax evasion and it IS illegal. It is therefore a criminal offence. 220 people were imprisoned this year and 171 last year for illegal tax avoidance as I understand the law describes it. We use the term tax evasion. It is a crime.
As to the police not being involved, well no individual or group of individuals within the company/club have yet been identified as culpable, consequently, no one has been charged.
Whether the BOD at the time the EBT was implemented and operated in an illegal manner(HMRC at the FTT confirmed that the EBT was not set up as a scam, consequently, the advisor to the club said that he showed them the bus, but did not drive it) can claim mitigating circumstances is to be determined. As a subsiary company they may use that in their defence. HMRC have as I understand it, not decide if they will pursue the directors, but they did say that they would not pursue the players for any criminal offence. Will be interesting to see if the side contracts instructed or simply granted consent for the earnings to be redirected.
This leads me to the point that a crime has been committed, widespread, prolonged,large scale tax evasion from 2001-9 as found by the COS.
Should the proceeds of that crime, titles and trophies gained for financial reward, be allowed to reside with RFC ? If they are allowed to retain them, then I concur with the the clumpany in that the game in Scotland is a wate of time.
Criminality in sport will been seen to be rewarded by achievement.
What’s the point?
Reply ↓
The “Schrödinger equation” is a red herring, just presented to muddy the waters. Illegal Tax Scheme it is, nothing more nothing less por cierto :)
West End of East End on 10th November 2015 2:15 pm Kenny Mcintyre on twitter saying that tonight’s show will have someone who will put up a very interesting argument for not stripping titles, he’s not said who it is yet, Chris Graham, uncle fester, Richard Wilson ? or will it be someone with a Celtic background like Neil Lennon
————
I’ll go for Ben Johnson or Lance Armstrong.
No doubt he did everything he could to get Alex Thomson on for a counter-argument but he was too busy…..
Johnatron
Post of the day! made me laugh.
have to run, but will check in later lads.
If anyone sees TD, tell him he now has to take me for a beer when we come over in the spring!
HH
Mike in…,
Aye but what happened to the cat, and why would he come up with such an evil experiment when he could have just as easily tossed a coin and shown it was heads and tails until it landed.
JOHNATRON
Let’s learn together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqV2z0ZiQIc
Mind you this guys approach doesn’t look very scientific.
Oh sorry, forgot, Rory Bremner FC.
Drugs cheating bans:
The more discussion the EBT cheating generates on Social Media and the wider the Audience involvement – has to be a positive.
IMO there is a danger to constantly cross-referencing it to; Lance Armstrong/ the Russians etc. These were drugs related cheating cases where the individuals physical performance was enhanced in pursuit of honours/trophies/titles.
Cases such as; Juventus (Calciopoli), Melbourne Storm (salary cap), Sion (player registrations) and countless cases where UEFA imposed penalties on Clubs for; irregular payments, breaches of tax submissions (licensing) etc., etc should be used as the ‘yardstick’ for comparison purposes.
The hun crime was deception; illegal paperwork and tax evasion (to give it a brief description) – compare and contrast similar cases/consequences (other than drug use) and utilise those punishments as a guideline.
The crimes didn’t take place ‘on the playing field’ – it was a devious conspiracy to gain ‘unsporting advantage’ perpetrated by a club (IL); its directors, accountants, lawyers and financial advisers and ably assisted by; lax, sycophantic governance by those in footballing authority. And for good measure – you can throw-in; greed and avarice on the part of players and their agents.
A conspiracy – not drugs use!
The same faithful dogs and soup takers were wheeled out when they were trying to convince us that sevco were needed to be put straight into the top league after they were liquidated.
A “strong” sevco were crucial otherwise we would have armageddon. A strong rainjurs trumped sporting integrity we were told, much like the current situation.
We all know how that ended despite the propaganda.
Praecepta 3:31
I see what you are saying, but their argument is their titles were won “on the field” so should not be stripped because of things that happened off the field.
Drugs cheats could use the same argument.
Since nobody seems to have an issue with stripping drugs cheats of their medals and titles, why should it be any different with Rangers?
67 Heaven
Al Capone was eventually caged for tax evasion. Different era, different country, but same principle applies. The tax dodgers should be rounded up individually. Not a civil offence, but a criminal offence.
Have signed Mr Clarson’s petition.
They are waiting for our petitions………silent and calm.
That dirge put me off the month of November for years !
RIP Pat Eddery. Abiding memory is about 20 years ago when he went through the card at York, and all I had on was the Placepot !
Keep an eye on Stuart Findlay, our loanee centre back at Kilmarnock. Good reports coming through.
HH
Beatbhoy,
I don’t think the mention was needless. It mentions who the goal of the season was scored against.
Sorry for missing a question you posed. I noticed you did likewise but that’s fine :)
They are obviously not in breach of any of the laws you mention or they woulda been pulled up surely. Or are the authorities waiting on celtic taking action? Who knows.
I say rangers to my hun mates but I never miss telling them they are a new club when the subject arises.
Also it’s difficult to prove Celtic think they are new club, but apart from your very tenuous suggestion, there hasn’t been any official releases to say they are the same.
Russellsteapot csc
A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.
Zheng ZHi
Phil’s blog should be sent to that Hun apologist Dick Wilson,after that shameful performance on Shortbread last night
BIGSHUGGY on 10TH NOVEMBER 2015 3:45 PM
Al Capone didn’t make as much money out of his crime as SDM did, though….. :)
Genoa were denied the licence necessary to play in this season’s Europa League.The reason ? – failing to meet a due date re the payment of taxes.
5way agreement
1. SFA
2. SPL
3. SFL
4. Rangers IL
5. Sevco
4. & 5. Were separate entities, same club :)
Sot,
No doubt they were not the first ever.
Resolution12 csc
HH
Praecepta
I can see your argument though Armstrong, Johnson and the Russians were not taking drugs whilst racing. Rather it was off field in preparation for races. Similar to the huns imo.
Cheating is cheating in sport, no matter the method.
GlassTwoThirdsFull
The consequence of the conspiracy to gain ‘unsporting advantage’ is the crime and not what happened ‘on the playing field’ – the crime(s) resulted in those particular players being able to be on the field at various times (2001-2009).
Therefore – the club/company (and all those associated) are guilty and should be punished (and/or convicted if applicable).
The trophies/titles were gained as a result of the conspiracy and as such all ill-gotten gains should be; removed/withdrawn and disposed of or returned to their rightful owners where practical (cups being an obvious problem).
Minimum sentence – strip and asterix!
EDB
It was a Samsung, 43″ J5500, Flat , Full HD, Smart, LED.
£379.00 from John Lewis, includes 5 year guarantee.
Lovely picture!
The Celtic look great on it!
Praecepta,
“Minimum sentence – strip and asterix!”
That’ll be Gauling for them ;)
HH
SYD NEGAKEV on 10TH NOVEMBER 2015 1:06 PM
Davidopoulos
I have often thought the same. Is everyone else squeaky clean? Hmm
As regulars will know, I have often preached transparency on who exactly gets what out of player signings.
– See more at: http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/tommo-fraudulent-silverware-must-go-blazing-saddles-comes-to-scottish-football/#sthash.rSS0LaHs.dpuf
Our review on the new book CELTIC – THE EARLY YEARS by Brendan Sweeney.
It’s been well worth the wait . . .
https://theshamrockglasgow.wordpress.com/2015/11/10/book-review-celtic-the-early-years/
EDB
I should have added “whatever that means”?
Hope you are well too!
Let’s all pull together for the greater good of Scottish Football.
Whatever happened to the DIGNIFIED Struthian doctrine of ‘SOD THEM ALL, ‘ LET THEM CATCH UP WITH US’.
As my old mum used to tell us,’live long enough and see it all’.
In connection with Celtic’s position on the “same club” myth I do believe that John Paul Taylor the SLO has sent emails to fans who contacted him on this matter at the time of the League Cup Semi Final.
Cannot remember exact words but the jist of it was that they can call themselves whatever they want, Celtic do not pick and choose who they play they fulfill the fixtures given to them. Celtic have dropped all references to “Old Firm” and have a stand alone strategy for running the finances of the club which is not reliant on any other club.
If you are interested in the club’s position why not contact them directly instead of casting aspersions on a blog.
Geordie Munro
A prohibited name is a name by which a company was known at any time in the immediate 12 month period prior to the liquidation process beginning.
Whether this is its Trading Name, or its registered name at Companies House, or any name so similar to these as to suggest an association with the Company in liquidation.
So, that’s why they’re Sevco to me.
“They are obviously not in breach of any of the laws you mention, or they woulda been pulled up surely?”??
Apparently not, eh?