Five at the back is an orthodox defensive shape, it’s not a headcount of defenders, which is the crux of where we went wrong last night: we chose the wrong system.
Consider the space between (debutant) Gamboa and Lustig at the first goal. No one was sure who should have been picking up Messi (reveal: it was Bitton, who didn’t track the run). There was uncertainty – presumably because we tried a new defensive system out at the Camp Nou.
Another consequence of five at the back is that your fullbacks don’t get midfield cover. Instead, Sinclair and Roberts were asked to work 40 yards out. This plan came at the cost of protecting Gamboa and Tierney.
The overwhelming tactical memory I have of our win against Barca four years ago was Neil Lennon doubling up in the fullback area.
Then we had two central defenders with Wanyama (a defensive mid, which Bitton is not) in front. Our two full backs were partnered with a wide midfield player. Diagrammatically that was four at the back, but whenever Barcelona were in possession (80% of the time), seven players were protecting the Celtic penalty area.
The abiding defensive memory from that night it the thicket of legs confronting Messi every time he got the ball. There was no space for him to pass and move into. Last night, he had more space inside the box to run into that he’ll see all season. It was simply the wrong system.
During the game I was pretty annoyed at Bitton, who I blamed for the first three goals, but he’s a deep-lying playmaker, not a defensive mid, and looked clueless in the position. Although even I know you need to track Messi’s forward runs, and my 11-yr-old knew they were about to score the third the minute we conceded a free kick 23 yards out in front of goal. Reveal: barging players 23 yards out is a mistake that gets you spoken to when playing 2004s football.
We had numbers but not a coherent defensive strategy. The lessons from The Beating of Barca in 2012 were lost. Four years ago we twice played them with these back fours:
Lustig, Wilson, Ambrose, Izaguirre
Lustig, Wilson, Ambrose, Matthews (out of position)
None of Wilson, Ambrose, Izaguirre or Matthews (at left back) would get in this Celtic team. They were all pretty standard-grade defenders, but with protection on the wings and in front, it worked.
After we lost the third concentration levels dipped, tired legs after Saturday would have been energised legs if we were still in touch. I’d also tell Scott Brown not to worry too much about giving the ball away. We’re not good enough to plan to regularly retain possession at the Camp Nou.
We’re a ‘two pass then lob it into the box or win a foul’ team at this level. Accept this and concentrate on what’s deliverable – “We are Celtic, try running through this thicket of legs”.
Scotts Brown and Sinclair played well. Moussa will beat himself up about the penalty but it was inconsequential. Gamboa and de Vries looked lost, as all Camp Nou opposition debutants (there can’t be many) and exposed keepers do.
It may have been the biggest loss in Europe but it doesn’t even come close to being our worst performance. It’s not even our worst performance in Europe of the season, so we’ll get over it quickly.
You and I both remember seven goal victories being overturned a week later. This is football. The leap required to deliver a tighter defensive system is not the magnitude it may appear.
669 Comments- Pages:
- «
- 1
- ...
- 11
- 12
- 13
- 14
- 15
- 16
- 17
- 18
- »
MOONBEAMSWD @ 1:56 PM,
Q1. If we continue to qualify for The Champions League over the next 5 years and earn in the region of £150 million or upwards from it, Sevco keep on keeping on zombying, we dominate the league with Saturday type results and we get football lessons like last night every year in the CL, will we be happy to accept that?”
Partially; I will look to continually qualify but would expect that there will be incremental improvement year on year; and if we get a couple of hammerings along the way, as long as we learn and strengthen the squad so that within 5 years we have automatic qualification to the Group Stage, then that would be an achievement.
Q2. In your opinion will the PLC back Brendan by giving him the money earned from The Champions League qualification, money they do not budget for, spare funding so to speak, to strengthen the team, or not?
Probably in a minority of one, but yes, I do. The lure of taking us to 10 in a row and regular participation in the Group Stage with incremental improvement (see answer 1) can keep Brendan Rodgers here for another 4 or 5 seasons. I think the CEO and the Board are sensible enough to see that.
FAC the Act
KTF
the_huddle on 14th September 2016 10:11 pm
vfr800a8 on 14th September 2016 10:04 pm
I don’t think for one minute the planned shake up of Euro football by the big boys will include clubs like Celtic, they really have no interest in size of club, fan base, full stadiums etc – it will purely be based on population/viewing figures (ie advertisement money).
____________________________________________
We are a worldwide box-office draw for viewing figures so on that basis, they would be interested.
————–
I’ll be surprised if you can provide stats to back that up??
_____________________________________________________
I don’t have the stats, but as someone who has travelled a lot on business, I have watched Celtic games in bars from Mumbai to Moscow, from Joburg to New Jersey, from Berlin to Boston and each time, no matter what time of the day, the bars are always full of ex-pats and locals in the hoops who want to watch Celtic games.
So more of an empirical study than scientific evidence, but I am sure that the extensive foreign contingent of CQN may have a view on it.
FAC the Act
KTF
There can be nothing worse than an Advert popping up and stopping you browsing whatsoever.
JJ.CSC
Actually there a lot of things Worse than that.
I think it is a Sign.
HH
TheGreatOutDoors.CSC
BobbySands.MP
Petec
Agree it’s a shambles
setting free the bears for Res. 12 & Oscar Knox on 14th September 2016 10:55 pm
I will attempt to be more transparent and less esoteric than macjay.
I for one don’t want to return to the turgid times of stale football we witnessed under WGS and, at times, NL. or the more agricultural type deployed by MON (only eased by his inheritance of Henke and Lubo).
The Ronny experiment didn’t work because, despite being a lovely man and a good coach he was a poor manager. Rodgers can be a lovely man a good coach and a good manager. he now needs to add a wee bit of pragmatism to that and I think that Tuesday nights experience may convince him of that.
FAC the Act
KTF
Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo,
I looked at the pics from macjay1 last night – Wow – Amazing Mexico.
I am Hopefully getting a Passport to go see ma Wee Bro in Switzerland – I have had it deducted already.
Basically – the wee guy will want to go to a European game soon enough.
Who wants a Rewind?
deducted – payment has been deducted.
The World is noo mine to check oot.
Awe Naw – Sorry for that link. I thought it would be good… But it was not anything like the Original – Logical Progression, Radio 1 mix.
The Times have changed Dramatically.
1995LTJRadio1.CSC
VFR800A8 on 15TH SEPTEMBER 2016 7:30 AM
setting free the bears for Res. 12 & Oscar Knox on 14th September 2016 10:55 pm
I will attempt to be more transparent and less esoteric than macjay.
I for one don’t want to return to the turgid times of stale football we witnessed under WGS and, at times, NL. or the more agricultural type deployed by MON (only eased by his inheritance of Henke and Lubo).
The Ronny experiment didn’t work because, despite being a lovely man and a good coach he was a poor manager. Rodgers can be a lovely man a good coach and a good manager. he now needs to add a wee bit of pragmatism to that and I think that Tuesday nights experience may convince him of that.
FAC the Act
KTF
============================================================================
esoteric
ˌɛsəˈtɛrɪk,ˌiːsə-/Submit
adjective
intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.
“esoteric philosophical debates”
synonyms: abstruse, obscure, arcane, recherché, rarefied, recondite, abstract, difficult, hard, puzzling, perplexing, enigmatic, inscrutable, cryptic, Delphic; More
???????????
Pragmatism is just about what I recommended.
Year on year funding from C.L.
A gradual build .
I sometimes wonder what people watch in a game! Goal 1: Scott Brown is the closets player to Messi and he moves away from him. Bitton is tracking another player (21 I think) and follows his run out of the box. Messi (left by Brown) move towards goal. Bitton reacts but is too far away to get to him. Toure doesn’t move quickly enough to close him down.
Goal 2: Bitton tries to track Messi’s run but loses him as he plays the ball to Neymar. Brown gets done by Neymnar’s quick pass. Messi moves into the box and there are FOUR players between him and the goal (including the lamppost that masqueraded as Mikael Lustig on Tuesday) but he receives the pass and scores.
And it’s Bitton to blame for both goals? I thought it was great movement and first time, crisp passing!
So how does that work out? I’m not saying was necessarily better than any other player but it’s the same old mob mentality of looking for an escaped goat. Nir Bitton is it for now.
FAC the Act
Delighted that Sporting bloodied the nose of Real.
Brendan Rogers.
Brendan Rogers.
Believe.
The Hun games are a distraction.
Seems to me that Police Scotland might be setting up another Shutdown.
More State Controls in the offing.
Celtic must B like RES D
Reject the Tickets.
The Rebels have Won.
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS on 15th September 2016 3:33 am
MACJAY
Just a jest-although I’m not sure even The Beatles rated their early stuff too highly.
_____________________________________________
I concur; I also feel broadly similar about their later stuff as well ………………..
FAC the Act
KTF
Brilliant if noone bought the £50 ticket.
LMFAO
Get yer OLD FIRM – – and RAM (goat of…..)
;))
Noone attend.
#############################################
It Ain’t gonnae happen – Just like a Utopian Society Can’t ever happen.
So Pipe down, all the Clever Clogs. ;))
Bobby, Delaney’s, Roy and any other members of the Danny McGrain appreciation society, there is a link on newsnow celtic from a website called the football pink about Danny.
BT’s Derek Rae contributes to the article and he mentions how great a person Danny is and what a player he was.
Its a good read.
The article was puy on newsnow celtic about half nine last night.
I’m sorry ,I can’t do the link thing.
Clever Celtic Board.
macjay1 for Neil Lennon on 15th September 2016 7:55 am
Pragmatism is just about what I recommended.
Year on year funding from C.L.
A gradual build .
_______________________
Possibly, but in a very circuitous manner.
cir¦cu¦it|ous.
[səːˈkjuːɪtəs]
ADJECTIVE
1.(of a route or journey) longer than the most direct way:
“the canal followed a circuitous route” ·
“a circuitous line of reasoning”
synonyms: roundabout · indirect · winding · meandering · serpentine · tortuous · twisting · anfractuous · indirect · oblique · roundabout · circumlocutory · periphrastic · meandering · discursive · digressive · long-winded · evasive · circumlocutionary · ambagious
antonyms: direct · straight · to the point
Stop them getting funds.
Thunder Road has posted a link to the Danny McGrain article in page 14.
Transpulsation
What did I have, said a Fine olde Woman No Cry.
Be Ruthless Brendan.
Was Brendan in for EFE?
I know Nothing – Never forget that.
The Queen is a scared Human Being.
Those behind are Horrible.
The……
FFS
Give the Almighty a High 5 ….
Christ is so Forgiving.
VFR800 & Macjay
I have to agree that VFR has made his point more clearly with much less side spin than Macjay’s original response to my post, which I still feel was misread.
It also makes it easier to respond.
Brendan may well add a bit of pragmatism, though some Liverpool fans reckon he did not develop that streak when there, but I think the underlying philosophy will be the same as that used by superstar managers like Guardiola and Wenger and lesser lights such as Kenny Sheils, John Hughes and Ronny Deila.
It will involve playing out from the back with “lumping it” reserved for “extreme danger” situations and when passing out has been restricted by too many opposition players pressing. He will ask players to be brave on the ball, to beat their man if that is on and to “show” when a team mate is in trouble. In short, all the things we tried to do in Barca.
While we can pick up faults in more than one player at each of the goals conceded, I think we have been intemperate in acknowledging the good work that players did, even on that hard night in Barca. Both Scott Brown and Bitton, and other defenders, did intercept a lot of attempts at threaded passes- they just did not intercept enough of them. Both Gamboa and Tierney who were well beaten by their opposite number and numbers in their defensive roles, kept going to the end in making forward runs. Even though their efforts were futile, that was still the brave thing to do. The cowardly thing would have been to just sat back in defensive position and let them have even more runs at us.
One of the things I noted about Barca and I have not seen the point made on here (apologies if it was) is that they often make “dummy” runs. A player will deliberately run into an offside position breaking our lines and hoping to distract a defender from what is in front of them. As they make their way back onside, the real penetrating run is made and the pass delivered. Sometimes the “dummy” run is only a “dummy” run because the pass was not delivered or was prevented. The upshot is that it becomes impossible to track all runs- that is not an excuse for any of the goals conceded- it is just an observation as to why there is a judgement call involved in defenders deciding to track or let go. The modern offside laws make this a harder decision for defenders.
Anyway, despite the record defeat, I think our bhoys did better in Barca, especially first half than they did in our 3 previous Euro ties away this season. I also think, and so do many pundits, including Spanish ones, that this was a Barca team on form and with determination. They did not need to be but they were. They could have relaxed at 4:0 but they didn’t.
They paid us the respect of bothering to gub us.
The ba*****s!
VFR800A8 on 15TH SEPTEMBER 2016 8:16 AM
More silly personal criticism .
Not “transparent ” .
“Esoteric. ”
And now ” circuitous “.
Why don`t you look up the meaning of ” manners “.
Hopefully that may stand you in good stead for the future.
Celtic need to recruit a Professor of Statistics
Aff to work now
Good moaning…
With Whatshischops Ceferin being appointed the new President of UEFA, it now seems that silly plan to have the top 4 teams from the top 4 leagues automatically enter the group phase of the CL will be under review. Two aspects of those plans I would like to see remain (from a purely selfish, Celtic-centric perspective) is scrapping the National Association element of the club coefficient. Currently clubs have their coefficient topped up with 20% of the National Association’s coefficient. This results in a situation where Celtic suffer from the fact that Scotland’s coefficient is pretty poor. If that change was implemented now, then Celtic would jump from Rank 41 to Rank 36. I was banging on yesterday about how crucial 3 consecutive CL group qualifications is for Celtic in order to maximise the benefit of any proposed changes in season 2018/19 – to stay on the map Celtic need to get as far up those rankings as possible.
The other proposal I like is the additional points for previous successes (should they extend such a rule to pre-Champion League format of the competition). Clubs like Celtic, the Dutch big three, Steaua Bucurest would certainly benefit.
It all seems to be up in the air at the moment, however it really is imperative that Celtic put together a string of consecutive qualifications to improve the coefficient and get the money to reinvest in the team. The goal should be to eventually cement our place as a “pot 3” team that will be a dark horse in the group.
What is IMPORTANT is that the New Bhoy— doesn’t look anywhere near the first Team or the Developent squad.
Look under the Celtic Hood.
2000 Leagues.
Tommy Burns.cCSCc
Developent — Development.
Sorry.
macjay1 for Neil Lennon on 15th September 2016 8:49 am
VFR800A8 on 15TH SEPTEMBER 2016 8:16 AM
More silly personal criticism .
Not “transparent ” .
“Esoteric. ”
And now ” circuitous “.
Why don`t you look up the meaning of ” manners “.
Hopefully that may stand you in good stead for the future.
_____________________________________________
hu¦mour. [ˈhjuːmə]
NOUN
1.the quality of being amusing or comic, especially as expressed in literature or speech:
“his tales are full of humour”
synonyms: comical aspect · comic side · funny side · comedy ·
funniness · hilarity · jocularity · absurdity · absurdness · ludicrousness · drollness · facetiousness · satire · irony
antonyms: seriousness
the ability to express humour or amuse other people:
“their inimitable brand of humour”
synonyms: wittiness · humour · funniness · facetiousness ·
drollery · waggishness · repartee · badinage · banter · wordplay · raillery · jokes · witticisms · quips · puns
antonyms: humourlessness
2.a mood or state of mind:
“her good humour vanished” ·
“the clash hadn’t improved his humour”
synonyms: mood · temper · disposition · temperament ·
frame of mind · state of mind · spirits
archaic
an inclination or whim.
“and have you really burnt all your Plays to please a Humour?”
synonyms: tendency · propensity · proclivity · leaning ·
predisposition · disposition · predilection · weakness · proneness · desire · wish · readiness · impulse · bent · list · humour · velleity
antonyms: aversion · disinclination
HTH
FAC the Act
KTF
VFR is today’s guest in Dictionary Corner with Susie Dent…
;)
Countdown CSC
setting free the bears for Res. 12 & Oscar Knox on 15th September 2016 8:49 am
VFR800 & Macjay
I have to agree that VFR has made his point more clearly with much less side spin than Macjay’s original response to my post, which I still feel was misread.
It also makes it easier to respond.
____________________________________________
I concur (obviously) but it seems MACJAY is showing some irritation because I trifled with his approach.
Nevertheless, I do agree with your views. Pragmatic entertaining football. Even Jock Stein took that approach in the 1967 semi-final second leg against Dukla Prague.
The first approach should be to try the expansive element of the beautiful game, but there will be some occasions where a more restrictive and defensive approach is called for. BR has been criticised in his failure to do that with Liverpool. Hopefully he has learned his lesson after Tuesday and he can come up with a formation and gameplan which will prevent similar outcomes to our defeat by Barca.
FAC the Act
KTF
Davidopoulos,
Th Big thing about Carol was her Brains.
She went so vain, Countdown was Big in this Town.
Sad really. Grow Olde Gracefully, or like an olde fecker.
I just guess it is the way it is these DAYS.
There’s not enough good
coffee in the world to read thru
aw that.
petec
This is true. No complaints about her replacement though – very clever lady…
I’m a creature of habit. Alarm set 4-10am Mon through Thursday. Up at 6am latest Fri-sat-sun
6 mile Run the same 4 days every week.
Pop master with Ken Bruce at 10-27am Mon to Friday.
Anyhow. Lunchtime listening to talksport and switching to Jeremy Vine debates .
That’s now wrecked. Talksport new presenter? Jim ( Walter, why are you so good Whyte)
Can’t fekkin stand him. His voice drives me to distraction, and even though it’s radio, I can picture that stupid grin on his face.
What’s next? Ken Bruce getting replaced by Nicky Campbell?
These are the real questions we should be asking. Not ” will the board give Brendan £20m”?
Not ” are TRFC the same club”?
Who decided on Jim Whyte? I want to know the names of these people “
Correction:
If that change was implemented now, then Celtic would jump from Rank 41 to Rank 34.
David
TRFC
Rank rotten