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Justifying bitterness

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I have two significant concerns about Walter Smith’s comments yesterday. He spoke about the events which followed Rangers liquidation in 2012:

“There was no necessity for Rangers to be put down into the Third Division.

“That will always stay in Scottish football. There will be a bitterness in the Rangers ranks. It will be a massive motivation for the club. It would certainly be for me.

“How can they forget what happened to them? Nobody could forget that.”

I’ve spoken to people at Celtic about security concerns ahead of the weekend. The game itself will almost certainly pass off without incident, but what happens on the streets of Glasgow and surrounding towns is anyone’s guess.

You will hear nothing even close to inflammatory from Celtic, senior fans groups, or anyone who cares about the club’s fans and wellbeing. Justifying bitterness due to (mis)perceived persecution ahead of this fixture is inciteful.  I’m astonished Smith said this.

On his subject matter, let me give you an alternative scenario:

Newco Rangers are parachuted straight into the Premier League, hundreds of creditors are abandoned, they have a full squad of players and are not a penny in debt. They would have been out signing players within minutes of registration (they even tried to sign a player while still in administration).

With Oldco having won the league accumulating debts they would never pay in 2009, 2010 and 2011, Newco, free of legacy financial commitments, would have an excellent chance of winning again in 2013 and beyond.

This plan was one strand of Craig Whyte’s lunacy and it would have killed Scottish football. Celtic, and others, would have been left to consider, do we pay these millions of debts, or liquidate and spend the money on players instead? I had this very conversation with a senior figure in the game in October 2011, when the realisation of what Whyte was planning became evident.  Utter mayhem would have ensued.

The damage done to the Rangers brand of clubs by allowing Newco access only to the bottom tier was huge. It’s consequences are yet to be appreciated by most fans.  Newco may never win a top flight league.

But the question was not whether to impose a trauma on ‘Rangers’ or allow everyone to carry on as we had before, this was not an option. It was whether to allow the existing rules and processes to stand, allow responsibility for the enormous mismanagement of Rangers to be carried primarily by Newco, and have other clubs deal with the fallout, with or without a ‘Rangers’ club in the league.

Whyte’s plan replicated what he’d done in other industries, but it would have devastated Celtic in particular. We were beaten for years on the field by a team who could not pay their bills or correctly register their players, then we would be beaten again as they walked away from debts without consequence, which is why I wrote this article in October 2011 on the Prepack route for Rangers Newco.

Pretty much all of what I wrote about in that article came to pass, it had to be stopped (and you’ll never know the key movers in doing so).  Smith should consider if the boot was on the other foot, if he would be happy to allow his club to be subverted in the manner he suggests would be good enough for others.  It was simply never an option.

CharlietrailerSTATIC

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  1. Canamalar it looks like OCD obsession on

    JG,

     

    what I am looking forward to, if it happens, is that they will all try to blame Murray for the tax evasion the point being they will have been offered a choice and each and everyone of them will have chosen the tax evasion route.

  2. Re: demand for sunday.

     

     

    I was offered a ticket, because, though I’m part of the Home Ticket Scheme, my attendance at cup games the last few years has been patchy. I was pretty surprised to be offered.

     

     

    After much thought I decided not to take up the offer. Then, I got a flurry of emails reminding me of the ticket. At the Hearts game, on a whim, I popped into the ticket office and got a great seat.

     

     

    We might have sold out the allocation, but I suspect lots of fans – like me – are attending this game because the bhoys will need our support, not through any excitement or anticipation about the nature of the game itself.

     

     

    No fans I know are looking forward to it at all. I expect us to win and I’ll be glad when it’s all over.

  3. The Resolute Mr Pastry on

    MRCANAMALAR@2:53 – and all the other attack-dogs, probably around a dozen in number, who like to ‘sink their teeth in’, because I take a different approach than them.

     

     

    FIRSTLY – I sincerely wish and hope that Celtic are able to bring every issue that has affected it, its shareholders and its supporters, due to the skullduggery of the Ibrox occupants over the last twenty-five years to a successful and satisfactory conclusion. However, in my opinion, in order to do such a thing, we have to be forensic and scrupulous in all that we do and say when tackling it. We must be aware that the Ibrox constituency and their allies in the media will have a different narrative than our own, and will look to undermine our case at every juncture. In order to overcome this we must strive to know what they are thinking and take proper cognizance of it – i.e. weigh each claim and counter-claim in the balance and sometimes put ourselves ‘in their shoes’.

     

     

    SECONDLY – People like you continually ask me ‘what side are you on’ – that’s an easy one to answer – I am, and will always be, on Celtic’s side whenever we are in the right and if I can play my part in any very small way, I am always willing to do so.

     

     

    Holding two things and/or arguments in one’s head at the same time, whilst trying to decide which is right, or are both right, or neither, is the best definition of intelligence that I know.

     

     

    Holding only the one thing in one’s head, at the exclusion of everything else, is a definition of dogma and prejudice.

     

     

    I will NOT go down that road. Where things are wrong and proven to be so, I will ‘shout it from the rafters’, where there is doubt or uncertainty, I will look for proof and, if new evidence comes along contrary to my held view, then I will change my view.

     

     

    I am neither a ‘hun’ nor a ‘Rangers supporter’, if indeed there is a distinction in the difference, and the last time I checked, sh*** was not coming out of my mouth – disagree with me if you like – but please keep on some sort of intellectual level. HH

  4. Geordie Munro on

    Italiabhoy,

     

     

    It wouldn’t matter about your attendance in recent years.

     

     

    If you were on hcts and therefore receiving a ticket automatically for every home cup game, you’d be well up the list.

     

     

    HH

  5. Jungle Jim Hot Smoked on

    The Resolute Mr Pastry @ 4:04

     

    Once again your, IMO, perfectly reasoned post, leaves me at a loss to understand why so many `attck-dogs` respond as they do. As far as I can see, you are advising caution as the best means towards success. Nothing wrong with that.

     

     

    JJ

  6. mike in toronto on

    jimtim on 13th April 2016 11:40 am

     

     

    BLANTYREKEV on 12TH APRIL 2016 6:28 PM. From last thread .

     

     

    An absolute gem of a post my friend . As many will know I live in a tiny Ayrshire village , a village where everyone knows everyone . Where banter between both sets of fans was friendly . Not anymore I have notice a real bitterness emanating from the Sevco,s . Something never seen in this village before . If that’s happening here ,then serious trouble is brewing . Anyone going on Sunday stay close , safety in numbers .and pray celtic give them a thumping ,then maybe they will walk away before the end . HH

     

     

    **********

     

     

    Sadly, I think it will be an awful, hate-filled environment, regardless of the score …

     

     

    If they win, they will be at their triumphalistic hate-filled best ….

     

     

    and if they lose … well, we all remember the statistics … you know, the ones that the police no longer keep ….

  7. whitedoghunch on

    Dharma Bam

     

    coming to a offie near you soon nestled somewhere between the great merlots of Bordeaux and much anticipated 2002 Krug so sayeth IP application

  8. thomthethim for Oscar OK on

    From SFM, which we all read, don’t we?

     

     

     

    NEEPHEID

     

    APRIL 13, 2016 at 11:56

     

    36 0 Rate This

     

     

    http://twohundredpercent.net/corruption-resolution-12/

     

    An interesting article on Resolution 12. I’ll just post the last paragraph, which might resonate with many-

     

     

    Elsewhere in Britain, the football press would have pursued this story vigorously, with its strong, occasionally irrefutable, evidence of football authorities’ dishonesty in their dealings. Scotland’s football press seem to care more for covering it up. After all, they have only to pursue two questions. When did the £2.8m tax bill crystallise? And what proof, as required by Uefa regulations, did Rangers supply that they had “no overdue payables” on 30th June 2011? Yet they show no willingness to do so. Jackson, “all over the Rangers story from day one,” hasn’t been “anywhere near” this aspect of it, even when it was obvious background material to his story about Rangers’ problems meeting licensing criteria for the very next season. And the BBC’s Tom English was properly ridiculed for accusing football of “burying its head in the sand” over the recent Sunday Times doping story, while he dives into the beach when Resolution 12 looms. They are but two examples of Scottish football journalism’s shameful attitude to this story. The corruption Resolution 12 addresses is blatant. The research is done. Yet their silence remains deafening. Again, you have to wonder why.

  9. Canamalar it looks like OCD obsession on

    patsy..,

     

    aye whatever you say, how many times have you been given unequivocal answers from people in the know and how many times have you accepted any of them.

     

    The only argument you have to offer anyone, is that you are completely ignorant of everything, which is why you continue to make up questions that you have no intention of acknowledging the answers to.

     

    Now weigh that against how many unequivocal answers you have received from those you dedicate your unquestioning loyalty, in fact how many questions have you asked those you dedicate your unquestioning loyalty ?

     

     

    I will have a guess and say that you have asked no questions as that is what unquestioning loyalty is all about, innit.

     

     

    So it appears that whatever happens, you will make no objections as you will never know what happened because you are afraid to ask in case you are wrong and even if you are wrong you will always try to claim you are not because you claim total ignorance of the facts even when they are shared with you, just LIKE a rangers supporter.

  10. Enjoyed The Cardigan’s rant on STV. IM Jolly hasn’t a look in. Producer must have been Basil Fawlty, don’t mention the war! ! No questions asked about the real issues ! Just pretend that they never happened !

     

    Good tv tonight.

     

    West Ham haven’t beaten Manure in last 18 matches. Might take draw.

     

    Barca have lost 1 in last 18 to Atletico, and won13. Last 3 visits, won by the odd goal.

     

    Bayern have great record v Portguese opposition.

  11. Whitedoghunch and Jungle Jim Hot Smoked,

     

     

    Initially, I thought it was another name for a Molotov cocktail, however I didn’t think whitedoghunch would have such thoughts (even towards the Blessed Cardigan).

  12. Canamalar it looks like OCD obsession on

    JJ..,

     

    sorry pal, I don’t see any attack dogs, I do see him making false claims that people are calling him a hun when in fact what is actually being said is he is betraying all the qualities of a hun with his unquestioning support, telling him he’s talking shite when he’s talking shite is hardly unusual or an attack.

     

     

    I mean look at the list of inconsequential questions he asks on the last page, most of which are completely irrelevant, yet he insists everyone needs to be answered before judgement can be made.

  13. The Resolute Mr Pastry on

    MRCANAMALAR@4:15 – you illustrate and confirm my points in a way I never could.

  14. Canamalar it looks like OCD obsession on

    patsy…,

     

    oh right, so you cannot answer any of the points made in my last two posts to you, so you think some pompous inane deflection is going to distract people who are following the discussion, you really do think very little of the level of intelligence on here don’t you.

  15. Noticeable (to me anyway) various items on the Celtic official website regarding the semi final none of them mention our opponents by name. “Glasgow rivals” “city rivals” “city derby”.

     

    (the fixture list isn`t Celtic`s property)

     

    Or am I missing something?

  16. Canamalar, Jamesgang & DD…

     

     

    Regarding any official WS censure…

     

     

    Well obviously good points all. As far as WS not having an official position, well I’d be amazed if he doesn’t have a Stipend from some Scottish Football Establishment or three but of course I don’t know of any.

     

     

    Having said that Jamesgang does have a good point and he is looked on as an elder statesman of Scottish Football, in fact the Chap got an OBE, there must have been a reason but of course I don’t know of any.

     

     

    Anyways what if we just look upon him now as a member of the Scottish Public…

     

     

    What about the OBA…

     

     

    Threatening communications

     

     

    (1)A person commits an offence if—

     

     

    (a)the person communicates material to another person, and

     

     

    (b)either Condition A or Condition B is satisfied.

     

     

    (2)Condition A is that—

     

     

    (a)the material consists of, contains or implies a threat, or an incitement, to carry out a seriously violent act against a person or against persons of a particular description,

     

     

    (b)the material or the communication of it would be likely to cause a reasonable person to suffer fear or alarm, and

     

     

    (c)the person communicating the material—

     

     

    (i)intends by doing so to cause fear or alarm, or

     

     

    (ii)is reckless as to whether the communication of the material would cause fear or alarm

     

     

    Or maybe like the Club itself, if you are so contaminated by Rangeritis then you live in an ethereal world where the laws, the rules and even the basic morals and behaviour society expects do NOT apply.

     

     

    Hail Hail

  17. The Resolute Mr Pastry on

    MRCANAMALAR@4:29 – in fact I do NOT say “every question has to be answered before judgement can be made” – what I do say is that all questions must be answered and known by us before we can be sure of moving foreard and winning our case.

     

     

    For instance – let’s say it can be shown to be maladministration, i.e. a mistake by the SFA – the outcome would be an apology and and an assurance that new measures are in place to prevent any repeat, or more unlikely, a sacking.

     

     

    If Celtic decided to take it further it could only mean suing the SFA for loss of revenue and opportunity – under SFA/UEFA/FIFA rules it is not possible to sue your home association.

     

     

    Remember the Cadette affair – Celtic lost out, however Fergus did not sue the SFA – he knew he couldn’t.

  18. Jungle Jim Hot Smoked on

    Canamalar

     

    You might show it in different ways but I do believe you are both on the same side and want the same result. If the matter could be left there I think harmony might ensue 0:-)

     

     

    Mr PAstry,

     

    In keeping with your view that slowly slowly catchy monkey might be the best way forward, perhaps you could show the patience you advocate and refrain from distracting the Res 12 guys with so many questions.

     

     

    JJ

  19. Fergus fully intended to sue the SFA. Their lawyers capitulated when confronted with the evidence.

  20. coolmore mafia on

    TALLYBHOY on 13TH APRIL 2016 2:25 PM

     

    HUNTLYBHOY

     

     

     

    Those 30 matches you listed were so good, that I read it twice!

     

     

     

    :-)

     

     

     

    My late dad told me that some of the best Celtic games he attended were in the late 1930s and early 50s! The 40s were best forgotten, including 1940 when he was sent to an internment camp for ‘aliens’ when his country of birth, Italy, entered the war!

     

     

     

    HH!!

     

     

    >>>>>>>>

     

     

    Apparently on the outbreak of war, Italian ice cream parlours etc were attacked by mobs in Scotland, closing them down.

  21. Canamalar it looks like OCD obsession on

    patsy..,

     

    immediately contradict yourself and move on as if there is no contradiction, and expect it to be ignored, really, you must be used to talking to children ffs.

     

     

    MRCANAMALAR@4:29 – in fact I do NOT say “every question has to be answered before judgement can be made”

     

     

    followed by

     

     

    “what I do say is that all questions must be answered and known by us before we can be sure of moving foreard and winning our case.”

     

     

    I mean ffs, who honestly takes you serious with arguments like that, that you think you can get away with it on here ?

  22. The Resolute Mr Pastry on

    JJHS@4:15 – Cheers for the support – I will let people make up their own minds.

     

     

    RESOLUTION 12

     

    What we are talking about is a licence being issued under disputed circumstances, not unlike the wranglings that go on when street parking-permits are issued to some who neighbours believe are non-residents to listen to Cana and others, you would think that we are grappling with the negotiations over the two-state solution in the middle-east.

  23. Jungle Jim Hot Smoked on

    Naturally enough on Cqn. Smith`s comments are being looked at from a Celtic perspective but I can tell you that my Dundee United supporting pals are not too happy with his thinly disguised ` relegation` comments about their team , either.

  24. The Myth……….

     

     

    a common or garden-variety……Horrible Hurtin’ Hun……….

     

     

    Hell mend hum!

  25. coolmore mafia on

    I believe the Scotsman has updated it’s ‘oldest clubs in Scotland’ article to now include the New Huns.

     

    No doubt a bit of intimidation jogged their memories…..

  26. The Resolute Mr Pastry on

    JJHS@4:45 – If the Resolutioners were magically to be invited over to UEFA HQ tomorrow for a meeting – in my opinion the ten questions that I have listed would be what they would be asked.

     

     

    It all boils down to – What are you alleging? – What proof have you got? – What do you want done about it?

     

     

    It is NOT rocket-science!!!!

  27. One of my favourite laughs is clicking on twitter posts and reading the replies. Like the 6 degrees of separation theory there is a twitter 3 tweets of reply theory for SMSM tweets before someone mentions “sevco” or something relating rangers death. It is hilarious.

     

     

    Today I had a great laugh when Alsion Robbie tweeted that Harry Forrester was out of Sunday’s game and asked who would replace him?

     

     

    Within seconds the first reply…………….. “THE Harry Forrester”

     

     

    Chapeau!

     

     

    p.s. jimtim, thanks! Hope you’re well.

  28. The hydra-heidit pop-up Sleekits are ooot

     

    in force…………

     

    Is it no abooot time furra shift-change?

     

     

    RestingActors……aye.

     

     

    Cut!

     

     

    Thurs still time furra few mair Whoppers…………………..

  29. GlassTwoThirdsFull on

    Anyone remember Walter bemoaning not having Celtic on his team’s coat-tails in the 90s? No, me neither…..

  30. Canamalar it looks like OCD obsession on

    Patsy…,

     

    I have been telling you for long enough it’s a simple argument, it’s you who has been trying to make it into the two state solution argument with your irrelevant questions.

     

    Every single one of the res 12 reps could go alone to UEFA and prove incontrovertibly by simply offering the evidence shared with you.. None of your question would or will be asked but as usual obfuscate with irrelevances to try and excuse your ignorance and refusal to accept simple evidence.

  31. Chairbhoy @4.41 – Mhate I think you raise a fascinating question then answer it in your final paragraph.

     

     

    In other news…..who is this Huntlypup who has suddenly appeared with upbeat stories at a time of tension. Is this a double bluff? He threatens to lower the average age of cqn below 70! And why has no one welcomed him properly???

     

     

    HH jamesgang

  32. Jungle Jim Hot Smoked on

    BT @ 5:12

     

     

    Excellent! Now I can go about my business with a smile on my face 0:-)

     

     

    Cheerio for now,

     

    JJ

  33. THE RESOLUTE MR PASTRY @ 4:55 PM,

     

     

    RESOLUTION 12

     

     

     What we are talking about is a licence being issued under disputed circumstances, not unlike the wranglings that go on when street parking-permits are issued to some who neighbours believe are non-residents…

     

     

    With all due repect and I’d like to point out a, I’m not an expert on this and b, I don’t tend to get involved in this discussion.

     

     

    But a bug bear of mine is during this argument something fundemental has been ignored by those looking for ammunition against the requisioners.

     

     

    FACT – Rangers FC had settled on a sum and agreed to pay for the outstanding Tax and Penalties owing on the WTC.

     

     

    SDM and the Rangers Board had agreed to pay HMRC period.

     

     

    What happened was when SDM transfered ownership of the Club to Craig Whyte one of the conditions was this bill to HMRC was to be settled.

     

     

    It never was… therefore Rangers got a UEFA Licience having a substantail debt outstanding to the Tax man, which is completely against the UEFA rules.

     

     

    This is not disputed. The rights and wrongs of Res 12 may be desputable – The outstanding Tax that made Rangers ineligable for a UEFA Licience is not.

     

     

    Hail Hail

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