When engaging in a civil case under Scots Law, where one witness’ testimony contradicts another, a sheriff will rule not just on what witnesses actually say, but on their demeanour, assertiveness, body language and other perceivable traits (I’m no lawyer but I’ve first-hand experience of this).
Alek Tonev’s SFA Appeal panel, faced with contradictory evidence, explained their decision on this basis, “Tonev gave his evidence in a guarded and hesitant manner”, whereas Shay Logan “gave his evidence in a careful and measured manner”.
Alek, Celtic, you and me are free to disagree with this verdict, or cite the fact that the player may have appeared hesitant because he was so uncomfortable speaking English, he attended with an interpreter (who was unused). In these circumstances hesitancy appears normal, I can’t imagine speaking at a hearing conducted in French with anything but hesitancy, so to find against the player on this basis is blatantly incongruous, but that is a side point.
Celtic threatened to take the SFA to the Council of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). My hunch is that before this Appeal was rejected, the SFA’s counsel confirmed that the panel were able to judge on matters of demeanour and manner.
CAS do not re-hear cases. In this instance, they will only determine if the grounds on which the decision was made, and subsequent punishment, were within the rules of the governing body which conducted the appeal. It is inconceivable that the SFA, who employed counsel, would return a verdict which they knew could be referred to CAS, if it broke one of their own rules.
Like you, I don’t have enough information to judge one way or the other on this one, so I’ll offer no view. Don’t be stressed that our reputation will be damaged by the charge. These incidents are so rare at Celtic they are headline news and recalled for decades (literally). This is a good thing.
Will get round to the moves being put on the SFA on other matters shortly, lots to cover this week.
Got your CQN Annual yet? Just over one week until Christmas!
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Not at all surprised by the Tonev ruling. As posted earlier Celtic will go no further, despite their blustering. Total “stitch up” by SFA establishment. Feel sorry for Tonev and Logan.
As for Logan, don’t think he will enjoy the reputation he has now earned and the reception he will get. Unfortunately he may now be often called the alleged names.
All so stupid
NatKnow
That’s it, still can’t find the fecker tho, dearie me, the weans would be mortified >}
HH
THE EXILED TIM
23:33 on
16 December, 2014
This is not the Green Brigade… Period,
This is cnuts that haven’t seen inside Celtic Park for years and, there are a helluva lot older one’s who don’t go away in Europe anymore, they are not involved also, too old and past it.
We have a serious problem with cnuts pished and stoned out their nuts at every away game in Scotland, add the two day’s travelling etc. to Europe, hence the problem.
FedupseeingitCSC
Syd Negakev (22:52): “…I wonder why that is?”
Because, my friend, Celtic are now the only show in town. Nothing else is newsworthy.
https://twitter.com/bhoymurphy87/status/544971781665062913/photo/1
What did Tonev call him?
Dont to do SFA run competitions, not a penny from me.
Don’t do Hampdump, Scottish Cup or League Cup games
Celtic only for me :-)
Oh SOAL, very happy birthday, the last 15 mins of it anyway
Hail Hail and Night night
THE EXILED TIM
23:41 on
16 December, 2014
NatKnow
That’s it, still can’t find the fecker tho, dearie me, the weans would be mortified >}
HH
———————————-
TET – The Billy No’Well version is called Subterranean Hunsick Blues. The YouTube vid no longer exists. I suspect Bob Dyl’s legal team have caught up with Billy! :-)
So logan is cooler under pressure than tonev…
Id be a little nervous aswel if I was up on a racism charge aswel knowing that despite being innocent that the wrong verict could end my career.
Lets be honest.. it doesnt take much research or asking about to find out that the sfa are anti celtic and would be glad to drag celtics name through the mud.
Absolute disgrace but sure we should be well used to it by now..
Very disappointed people are suggesting we just leave it to tonev.. villa and bulgeria so sort out. The guy was wearing a celtic jersey and playing for our club .. he deserves us to stick up for him espcially on such flimsy evidence.
Looking at logans recent behaviour including his latest tweet … sounds like a twat.
CaltonTongues
Much obliged for that.
So, obviously the club know who they are ?
What IYO can the club do to stop it ?
Sorry to ask this, but, as has been said, it needs stopped, you yourself reckon it need stopped, what is getting done about it ?
And I honestly didn’t think it was the GB for a second.
HH
Newco will make two separate announcements tomorrow regarding being unhappy with SevcoFA.
Margaret McGill
23:44 on
16 December, 2014
What did Tonev call him?
——————————————-
He didn’t call him anything. If you believe Tonev.
If you don’t believe Tonev, just make something up and he probably called him that.
Nat
Thanks, save me tearing the hair out, shame, it was feckin superb.
HH
Margaret McGill @ 23:44
Tweets from @SevcoGrant:
@STVGrant: Tonev’s lawyer Liam O’Donnell made clear to tribunal that Tonev “spoke good English” but an interpreter was on hand just in case.
@STVGrant: Referee Bobby Madden was approached by Mark Reynolds in 55th min of match saying Logan had “been subjected to a racist comment” by Tonev.
@STVGrant: “One minute later, Logan approached Madden, intimated that he had been called a’ black c***’ and pointed to Tonev who was wearing no 27.”
@STVGrant: “The referee indicated that Logan’s demeanour was ‘somewhere between upset and angry’.”
@STVGrant: “In cross examination Mr. Madden confirmed that he had not heard the
conversation between the players.”
@STVGrant: Logan evidence: During game “Logan placed his arm across Tonev’s chest.” Tonev said to Logan “don’t touch me you black c***’.”
@STVGrant: “Logan, at first, just looked at him and then he made some comment
along the lines of ‘are you sure?’. Tonev replied ‘yes, yes’.”
@STVGrant: Asked by the compliance officer if he could be mistaken Logan replied “one million per cent no”.
@STVGrant: Logan said that he would never try and tarnish anyone’s career and that he knew “what the word black sounds like”.
THE EXILED TIM
23:51 on
16 December, 2014
Nat
Thanks, save me tearing the hair out, shame, it was feckin superb.
HH
————————————
‘Twas funny, but sadly seems to have disappeared. I check a few links but nothing doing…
THE EXILED TIM
23:49 on
16 December, 2014
What to do about it?
The Gallowgate is under 24 hr surveillance, suddenly turned off when Euro away games??
Ach, let them get pished and stoned and let the (Insert European Countries) Polis deal with it, more slagging in the media etc.
What to do?
Celtic refuse to accept tickets for away games in Europe… PERIOD
So, acording to the msm, lambias is to be the new CEO at hunland, and mash is sticking 2 fingers up to the sfa, all to get the hoards onside.
party time
HH
morrissey the 23rd
23:49 on 16 December, 2014
Newco will make two separate announcements tomorrow regarding being unhappy with
SevcoFA.
::::::::::::::
Just a guess ………
1. If you do not let us do whatever we want this time then we will tell everyone how you let us do whatever we wanted last time.
2. We are the peepul !
http://youtu.be/v8Hdps7u0Io
Listen to the guy in the background sniggering. Priceless!
HH
Margaret McGill (23:44), Allegedly Tonev called Logan a “черна путка“.
Shocking, I say ******* shocking!
A wee addendum to the above…
The Pope’s visit….
Bairds & Bar 67 had papal flags flying outside.
So what?
Someone complained about them (BTW The Calton is and Orange hole apart from the pubs)…
So, plod call Bar 67 to notify them of the complaint.
Answer: Eh, have you seen the flag flying outside the City Chambers?
Oh, we’ll get back to you on that, they never did.
Same thing happened with the Palestine flag.
Orcs, whit are they like :-)
TBB@21.25
“I believe that Logan believes he was racially abused for example. I also believe that Tonev’s explanation of why Logan believes this to be the case is unconvincing. That’s belief for you.”
Amongst all the good points you made, the above one jarred.
Why should Tonev be asked or expected to provide an understanding of Logan’s thought processes in being certain? Was Logan asked to explain why Tonev was saying he did not say it? I’d hate to be asked to interpret someone else’s motivation for saying or doing something, or for failing to agree with me that they did something i accused them of. I would be lacking in so many facts and knowledge to even begin to attempt a confident stab at that. You are merely being asked to speculate.
PF Ayr (from the last thread)
You placed some reliance on Tonev being unconvincing in his (changeable?) knowledge of the c word. Can I ask what in particular that Tonev said in evidence leads you to believe his evidence was unreliable there?
Margaret McGill (23:44), apparently St. Mirren are to announce tomorrow that in light of the Tonev ruling they are dispensing with their traditional shirts with immediate effect. From now on they will wear shirts that bear alternate vertical white and void stripes.
caltontongues
23:55 on 16 December, 2014
Whit ????? And lose out on the income generated by the over inflated prices charged by the Celtic Travel Club for their one and two day trips
A relative of mines who travelled on a one day package to Zagreb last week related a story to me about being on a chartered coach which transported him from the airport to the city centre. Throughout the journey there was a a group who were openly and blatantly doing Charlie from the back of their credit cards. Their actions were totally ignored by the Celtic Travel Stewards who accompanied the coach. And they wonder why there is so much bother associated with European away trips now
Nat
Aye, tis a shame I never saved it, feckin royalties >}
HH
…………………………
CT
Drastic measures mi amigo, I hope it disny come to that.
See the prob I have is they have done us for the Bobby Sands banner, that I know was the GB, it was prob one of the best I have ever seen, and yet we get done for it, we never should have imo, it was straight to the point, it was debatable if it was political, it could have been whatever side you were looking from, it should have been fought imo.
Just my take.
I was a wean once, never had the flares or the like, but wasn’t the best behaved I must admit, so no hypocricy from here.
Tis so hard to educate the weans today, they just don’t pay any heed.
HH
Jonny the Tim,
A huvney slept fur three months
;o)))))
setting free the bears for Res. 12 & Oscar Knox
00:07 on
17 December, 2014
TBB@21.25
“I believe that Logan believes he was racially abused for example….”
—————————————————————–
How do we know anything? A Justified True Belief? I’m sure Logan believes that Tonev abused him. That’s not the same as knowing he did. A classic Gettier case IMHO.
Tonev was found guilty on the basis of his performance at tribunal versus Logan’s. As I stated earlier, for such a serious accusation, this is a poor level of “proof”.
mickbhoy1888
00:07 on
17 December, 2014,
Hey, not too pleased with you usual stuff but????
What to do?
Can you fight a organised gangs on yer todd at a game?
️CT
You’re on a public forum.
THE EXILED TIM
00:09 on
17 December, 2014,
This has nothing to do with the Green Brigade.
These are just out of their mind nutters (being kind here).
CT
Thanks again for the conformation it wasn’t the GB.
Hopefully the winkers on the blog will pay heed to that, but i doubt it.
HH
Hamiltontim.
And?
What?
TET, I had all the Billy No’well links on my computer that was robbed by the durty thieving Spanish Bastards that robbed my hoose when they robbed me……………blind. The swine that they ur!!
The song was called Subterranean Hunman Blues, and it appears to have been removed from utube. You’re right, it was a belter.
On the flare thing, I’d like to see the police quietly remove the flare holder and take him/her to a small well sealed room, insert an unlighted flare up their jacksy (fuse out) and light that bad boy up. Give it ten minutes. When they’ve half choked to death and their brown ring resembles a sunderland rosette, they may get they message that flares are not a good idea.
Ask lennybhoy what they did to his spanking ne trainers.
️CT
CCTV on Gallowgate turned off???
Aye nae bother.
A Ceiler Gonof Rust @ 00:27
You can buy 17 Billy No’well songs for a fiver. (£6.50 incld P&P)
https://twitter.com/billynowell/status/545008211196403712/photo/1
iki @ 00:00
I’m still smiling at that.
Hamiltontim
00:28 on
17 December, 2014
️CT
CCTV on Gallowgate turned off???
Aye nae bother.
=============
OK, let’s say they were (always) on a tea break….
Another countries police force to deal with and Mega Press over here.
TotesBTWCSC
ACGR
Aye, as Nat said, it looks like Bobs lawyers have had it removed, tossers.
I saw a post earlier, sorry can’t recall who posted it, he said he recorded an incident in Milan last year, sent it to the club and nada was done.
The support can only do what they can, as CT said a couple of posts ago, what can one man do against a gang ????
The system is so feckin fecked up it’s no true, imo, it’s where they want us.
HH