Dundee United chairman Stephen Thompson’s comments to yesterdays’ Herald are worthy of attention. During the summer, when United received a £1m bid from Rangers for David Goodwillie and Blackburn Rovers were hovering, Bank of Scotland, took an active part in the deliberations. Thompson told the Herald, “The bank wanted me to take £1.2m for him, but I said no to that. I had to stand up against the bank.”
Thompson more than doubled the money on offer for Goodwillie, allowing him to shave over £2m off their bank debt, but this exchange took place only a few months after the same bank told former Rangers chairman, Alastair Johnston, to accept the bid for the club from Motherwell born thousandaire Craig Whyte or the bank would demand same-day repayment of Rangers borrowings.
Bank of Scotland, part of Lloyds Banking Group (LBG), are significantly exposed to Scottish football and required a taxpayer bail-out two years ago, so although their interference in the running of clubs could seem overbearing, we shouldn’t be surprised at it. It’s business, and if you are employed at LBG with a responsibility to your taxpayer-shareholder, it’s necessary business.
Fortunately, Celtic are free from such interference, as are Rangers, thanks to their aforementioned benefactor, but if a liquidation event at a large club threatened income streams to the league I would be amazed if the Bank didn’t use the ‘Vote Newo FC into the SPL or repay your borrowings immediately’ line.
Stephen Thompson, who sits on the SPL board, might not have a choice on whether or not to vote a Newco FC into the SPL ahead of 30 Scottish Football League clubs, but he and his fellow board members will be able to set the tariff on any exceptional league entry to what would become a financially privileged football franchise.
12 seasons of cumulative benefit from financial mis-dealings should result in 12 seasons of penury at whatever points rate the league calculate benefit was accrued. For one scenario I have in mind, around 15 points per season sounds fair, with an expunging from the records of any trophies ‘won’ by Financial Doping.
This is measured, deliverable, is in the power of the SPL board to impose, and sets a minimum moral hazard to inhibit future mis-deeds.
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FSTB
No one is asking for Rangers to be punished
Speak for yourself Fergus but even if Rangers do go bust I expect our PLC to sue the ex Rangers board for loss of earnings.
I also expect us to open up discussions with regards Hun FC´s previous titles that they won unfairly and demand that they are revoked.
Of course they wont because they are Old Firm.
Hail Hail
The Battered Bunnet says:
12 January, 2012 at 16:20
Is Clean Competition too much to ask
Well run clubs turning out well trained players to compete for the prizes on equal terms
============================================================
That would make a great banner and should be held up by every Scottish football stadium till the newco decision is published
hail hail
happy birthday Aw_Naw & Brimmer, I think…. o))
blantyretim says:
12 January, 2012 at 16:40
Thanks bud
Hail Hail
Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo at 12:36
Birthday Lorry ?
Ha! Probably.
LiviBhoy says:
12 January, 2012 at 14:59
‘If you think the hatred of Celtic is bad up here wait until we are competitors down South. Our fans will be chased up and down every high street, road and street in England.’
In my experience we get more of a welcome in England than we do in most grounds in Scotland.
Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo says:
12 January, 2012 at 16:37
Someone posted a good idea last night
That the 6 titles won should be marked ..revoked… in the the recorrds with the reason given as to why
hail hail
Just thought of a good way for clubs cheated out of trophies by the huns to make a few quid. Once Rangers are stripped of their ‘honours’, perhaps Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, QoS, Dundee etc could have trophy presentations, inviting back the squads that were robbed to be presented with medals and the cup. I’m sure a few thousand would turn up to see that. What a brilliant way to punish cheats!
Kojo
You’ll be familiar with the concept in poker of ‘all in’. Your opponent then has to decide to fold or call. In my scenario I expect the others to fold. However, if they call, we still haven’t actually resigned and in fact in the envelopes could have been get well soon cards, who knows. But, at least we might have tried rather than fold ourselves!
Paul67
You make a very good point about the sort of commercial pressures the SPL and its clubs will find itself under and offer a possible solution.
The difficulty at present is knowing the exact scenario that will unfold, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that HMRC will seek full payment over as short a period as Rangers “guaranteed” income (i.e less UEFA money) would enable. I reckon £20M upfront and £10M for the next two seasons would eat the elephant/gorilla in the room without starving the zookeeper.
It is a decision that would save the football industry in Scotland from itself as well as giving Rangers an opportunity to pay their taxes and restore some semblance of credibility and maybe even the dignity they were so proud of. The taxman would also get all his dough so I would not rule it out.
It does however carry one danger to our game in that it makes the pursuit of UEFA money to finance the back tax payment even more of an incentive to win titles than Rangers had in 2009 and we all know what happened in that season and in 2010. Thus if HMRC take the football industry off the hook so to speak an absolute condition that should be a condition of allowing the offending club to continue to play is that any UEFA money they do earn until their tax debt is cleared should be held by the SPL in escrow as a development fund to be disbursed on a good for the game principle as is merited by circumstances. It might help after a couple of seasons, assuming a tax crippled Rangers still get into Europe, to underpin the costs of restructuring.
However the point about the above situation and your proposal for the Rangers Newco scenario is that both are based on a wrong having been done by Rangers to the Scottish game and that reparation of this wrong is a key principle that must be part of ANY solution to the dilemma that Scottish football faces.
It seems to me therefore that a statement that articulates this requirement and is made public by supporters, with the Celtic supporter groups taking the lead because somebody has to, but if possible with the support of other clubs supporters for obvious reasons, should be presented directly to the SPL and SFA and made as widely known as possible before the FTT rules so that it is heard by the Banks, HMRC AND the Media as major players in this unfolding drama.
I’ll have a go now at a draft off the top of my head but of course welcome comments on my argument for such a resolution, how it might be taken forward and of course the wording (just like we did before when we lost confidence in the SFA.)
Draft
We (the supporters groups of Glasgow Celtic as listed below and the other clubs groups/trusts also listed appreciate the commercial concerns and pressures to reach an accommodation that preserves the football industry in Scotland should the FTT rule that Rangers use of EBTs to pay their employees was wrong and back tax is owed.
However we would remind all parties concerned, the SPL, the SFA, the clubs, the club’s Banks, the Media and HMRC that commercial wellbeing ultimately depends on the paying customer, the supporters, being satisfied that the integrity of what they are being asked to pay to watch is beyond question.
Consequently we insist that any solution,
Whether that be an arrangement by HMRC for the tax owed to be paid in full over a period
Or
If it means the end of Glasgow Rangers via insolvency, followed by an application to allow a new club to play in Scottish football , that
a) follows the defunct Rangers traditions and
b) depends on the business goodwill of the defunct club for its ongoing viability as a business in its new form,
must have the principle of reparation applied by football authorities to any solution reached and that reparation be commensurate with the wrong done to other clubs as a consequence of Rangers gross misbehaviour.
Any solution that does not contain a reparation element with special conditions for entry puts the integrity of Scottish football in serious doubt by creating the perception that one club has used favour to escape the full consequences of its behaviour and will therefore continue to seek favour with no regard to the consequences for others. Therefore for integrity restoring reasons to which longer term commercial ones are inextricably linked, reparation must be a part of any solution to make it acceptable to all clubs’ supporters.
We consider this point to be so self evident to a reasonable person that we see no need at this time to threaten further action if it is not recognised and adopted as the lead principle in arriving at a solution.
Draft ends.
Paul 67
If your scenario comes to pass, it wont be long before legislation and points deductions are brought in (though not limited to) for such offences as wearing green. Just to even thing up like.
Hi all l have a wee question l have a new laptop, l use eset nod32 antivirus 5, can anyone advise me what else l need to keep it safe from adware/spyware?
Mtt
“perhaps Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, QoS, Dundee etc could have trophy presentations, inviting back the squads that were robbed to be presented with medals and the cup”
Agreed, but not for St Mirren. The huns were down to 9 men and they still made an erse of it. I know St Mirren fans who have never gone back after that.
Listen guys it’s fairly evident that even if liquidated nothing much will change. Rangers will re-form under a slightly different name and will start in the SPL with the same players, the same stadium and the same bilious attitude towards Celtic/Catholics/Irish as they have always had. We can say what we want and we can hope for long term sanctions or punishments but I wouldn’t be at all surprised of they got away with just a 1-year ban from competing in Europe.
If Scottish football needs a newco huns in the SPL so much, then the newco huns can simply refuse to accept any penalty imposed on them as the price of their admission.
N’est-ce pas?
Things I wouldn’t rule out:
1 slap on the wrist 10 pt deduction
2 mad loaded Hun lurking in background awaiting outcome of case with last minute rescue
3 Huns liquidate and buy another club for peanuts then rebadge it Hun Utd or the likes
These seem more credible options than Huns getting 12 years of 15 point deduction or being kicked out of Scottish football.
The reality is nobody knows…
tomtheleedstim
Thanks for posting the stuff from RTC earlier (delay in reply due to dinner!)
I hope the subject of their euro application for this season still has some legs.
I was aware of their belated appeal but,it’s what went on the application in April/May that counts.
How I would love to see the original bill and their application.
malone 19- I dont think that will be too far off the mark mate.
ernie lynch says:
12 January, 2012 at 16:43
I have had much the same experience apart from Middlesboro & Birmingham.
When we are signing their players and winning trophies it will be different. Every right wing nut in the area will appear when we roll into town. Use your head mate.
Fans are fine when we are topping up their players benefit fund or putting cash into their club but when we are competing against them it will be a different story.
LB
mickthetic says:
12 January, 2012 at 16:46
Use Microsoft Essentials for real time protection – keep it updated. Use Malwarebytes for regular batch scanning / identification of any threats on the laptop. Download CCleaner and run it daily to delete browsing history / cache / cookies etc. Never select “Yes” when asked to “Remember Me”.
Don’t buy any security software – all the above is free.
The best advice is don’t do anything stoopid!
HH
TLK
mickthetic says:
12 January, 2012 at 16:46
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/products/security-essentials
Zbyszek says:
12 January, 2012 at 16:41
Next time ? ;-)
Hail Hail
LiviBhoy says:
12 January, 2012 at 16:55
You have a warped view of England and the English.
Due to my woman being in hospital just got the dreaded news that her 1st trip to Paradise on Saturday & hol to Cape Verde on Sunday is off as she will be staying in a bit longer.
I did the ticketfast scheme for this weekends game so there is 2 tickets available to whoever wants them. Im not interested in getting cash for them i will just email them through. If there is anyone on here who thinks they know 2 people who would appreciate them please let me know.
The tickets are for Jock Stein Upper, Row AA seats 26&27.
ernie lynch says:
12 January, 2012 at 16:50
That’s as near as dammit how it will work.
Unless Celtic grow a pair the game in scotland is well and truly fecked.
Let’s, for a minute, forget the rules and forget everything, and look at two things which, in all the back and forth, are being forgotten or overlooked.
Craig Whyte is a man who has made his money out of numerous dodgy deals. He bought Rangers FC, a club which has financed the last 20 odd years of existence on debt, with one intention, and everyone in Scotland is well aware of it.
To ditch that debt. To dodge his, and the club’s, liabilities. He bought Rangers with the explicit intent to defraud the Exchequer and the tax payer of monies due, and he is trying to force the rest of our clubs to accept what he is doing.
This was planned in advance. It is naked, unvarnished, in-in-your-face.
Rangers could pay off the debt if they so chose. It would take downsizing, cutting the cloth to suit that and living with the consequences. If they, for example, spoke to commercial companies about a lease-back deal for the stadium, paid over 20 years, they could, and would, find the money tomorrow, every last penny of it.
This is not a club which is unable to meet its debts. IT IS CHOOSING NOT TO. The entire avowed strategy of its owner is to DUMP those debts and carry on as if they never existed in the first place.
And we are to accept that as fait accompli? As a done deal? The league will accept that? HMRC will accept that? The banks will accept it?
To let them go merrily on, Mission Accomplished, to support a TV deal?
What IS this world in which we are living? There is no ambiguity about what this guy and his football club is trying to do. He may say it didn’t happen on his watch, and he is right, but this man arrived with NO INTENTION of being honourable or responsible, with no view towards doing the right thing.
How can a new begining be legitimate if it starts out with a despicable fraud?
If we, as a club, allow it to happen our own reputation will stink with the shame of it forevermore.
Serge says:
12 January, 2012 at 17:02
Sorry to hear of your awful news,nice gesture by yourself.
Best wishes to your good lady.
I kind of hoped that all those Celtic fans who saw their fathers and uncles brothers and sisters watch a corrupt competition while being verbally abused and intimidated. Lets say an overtly corrupt competition and had their money , possible enjoyment and freedoms stolen from them would be a little more interested in their issues with a phoenix Rangers than the purely financial implications. I still hope to see a deluge of private complaints and legal actions against anyone associated with hun chicanery these last 10 years.
Lets start with an apology for their sectarian signing policies ????
Aye right.
Sometimes killing something is the most humane and civilised thing to do.
IT CERTAINLY IS IN THIS CASE
HAil HAil
voguepunter
Thanks alot mate, Dont want to have 2 seats empty when the team needs our backing. Hopefully someone will take them. HH
Monday:
Edinburgh Zoo Keepers Use Panda Porn to Make Sweetie Flirty
Thursday
Sick male panda taken off display at Edinburgh Zoo
And it’s the panda that’s sick? Inconguous or what…
Auld Neil Lennon heid @ 16.44
Absolutely. If, and when Rangers go for liquidisation it’ll be simply be a device to put Whyte in a position of control.
It is my fervent wish that his manoeuvring is stymied and a pre-requisite for any re-entry for newco is based on the newco accepting responsibility for Rangers debts and an assurance they’ll make good on all outstanding debts and interest accrued over the period of repayment.
For justice I’d also like to see them striped of all trophies/leagues they won during the period of their financial cheating but I won’t be holding my breath waiting for that to happen.
James Forrest is Lennon
Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo
Agree totaly there should be no hook to let them off.
serge says 12 january 17.02
nice act, actions such as your’s enforces the belief that being a tim is a good thing.
Hope your Mrs makes a full recovery.
Hearts major creditor is Romanov, or at least his bank. Romanov is not likely to get his money back but wants out.
The MBB allows Rangers to go bust and as per his security takes Ibrox Park and some of the playing staff. Just before that happens he files a change of name form at Companies House to anything you like, say “Huns FC Ltd”. A consortium of Huns simultaneously buy Hearts for £10m, and relocate to Ibrox and rename themselves, em, Rangers, having secured the right to play there in a deal with the MBB who owns the stadium. Romanov gets £10m of his £30m, cash. Crucially he gets to keep Tynecastle and sells for redevelopment and recoups another £10m. Compared to his current position it has to be attractive. Hearts have never defaulted and are legitimately an SPL Club, now playing in a bigger stadium under new name.
There is now a space in the SPL for another SFL Club to be promoted. The riddle is, who’s missing? Hearts continue to exist under a new name and ‘Rangers’ are still playing at Ibrox!
James
To be fair, the old board could have done this in the summer of 2009 or 2010 with the guarantedd ECL dough.
A slimmed down team, star players sold, transfer cash and ECL bonus cash salted for a rainy day, with the option to sell and lease back the stadium providing a backstop in the event that the final tax bill was a whopper.
They chose not to, and their club will likely be dissolved as a consequence.
Whatever comes next, they chose it.
John Anthony
Thank You, I know everyone on here would have done the same. If i can help make a Tims day then i’ll be happy. HH
sareholders
VP- You read back to page 3?