Ronny Deila’s dream of reconstructing the Dundee United team of 2014 is on track as United have agreed terms for the sale of striker Nadir Ciftci, who is set to join Stuart Armstrong and Gary MacKay-Steven in green and white hoops.
United are feeling sore at losing three players to a rival but it could be argued this deal is a positive result for them. They are no different than Celtic in needing to acquire good players who will enhance their team and generate transfer fees when they leave.
Armstrong and Mackay-Steven gave Celtic a timely boost when they arrived in the team in February. If Ciftci adapts as quickly he’ll do well.
Signing a backup goalkeeper is a tricky call. Do you blow a large slice of budget on a genuine contender for the goalkeeper’s jersey, or perhaps promote the next teenage David Marshall? Both are viable calls. If we sign Logan Bailly (29) for a fee from Belgian club Leuven the expectation at Lennoxtown is that he will push Craig Gordon.
That would leave us with competition across the field, apart from the left back slot…..
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From the TSFM
John Clark says:
Member: (960 comments)
July 7, 2015 at 8:17 pm
Today in Court 2 in Parliament House.
The teams:
For HMRC: Mr Julian Ghosh QC, Mr Thomson QC.
Sypported by 2 solicitors and a number of HMRC people.
For MG and Others, Mr Dunlop, QC and another bewigged person whose name I didn’t catch,supported by three solicitors.
On the bench , my lords Carloway, Mackenzie and Drummond-Young, bewigged or gowned.
Sadly, Mr Ghosh is very quiet-spoken and from 4 rows back and him with his back to us,I missed quite a lot through hearing only parts of what he said, usually the links of his argument!
Very briefly,Mr Ghosh gave an outline of the essence of the scheme.
He made much of the point that the Main Trustee knew from a ‘letter of wishes’ and the loan application how much was to be settled in a ny sub-trust.
He emphasised that this Trust money was part of the remuneration package earned for work done.The only reason it was deemed not taxable was that the money was not paid directly to the employee.
The employee was free to say ” don’t pay me, pay someone else..my wife, brother or whatever.”
In this case, the ‘someone else’ was the Main Trust, in the employee’s belief that loans would be obtained, that the Trustee’s discretion would be used in the right way.
That, said Mr Ghosh, is the principle involved. It would be catastrophic for the public purse if that was all that needed to be done to avoid tax.
The finding that it was a true exercise of discretion is unsound. The significance of that point was missed by the FTT.
Judge Mackenzie : It was not apparent.
Mr Ghosh said that it is that principle that this Court is to decide.
He then discussed the Main Trust (set up by MGL) documents, mentioned that were 5 different employers, and then a whole lot of sub-trusts. And subsequent variations . In one Trust only, Sir David Murray as Protector was given ‘absolute’ powers ( And here Mr Ghosh said that what SDM did in exercise of those powers ‘he simply could not do!)
[I kind of missed what it was he did, but apparently he had power to exclude future employees and/or include them, or maybe both]
Mr Ghosh said the scheme worked thus: communication between the Trust and the employer, communication between employer and employee, and communication by ‘letter of wish’ between the employee as Protector of his sub-trust and the Main Trust.
He selected three particular cases- Bain, McLean and McCann, and discussed relevant documents, (letters of wishes and side letters) showing the true nature of the Trusts, with the employer undertaking to make payment if a loan were ever to be refused. For example, in the McLean case the letter said ” In the event that the…..the CLUB will pay to you the balance….”
And the monies to be paid were in all footballer cases earned income, and in Bain’s case, bonus for good performance.
So,Mr Ghosh said, we have got to a place where cash payments were being made by the employer on terms where the money is being paid to someone else, in a diversion of earnings to avoid tax.
He then ran through how various sections of the Income Tax Act would apply to such earnings ( requirement on employer to deduct tax, even if payment made to an intermediary or to a person acting on behalf of the employer.
he moved on to consider whether these payments whether made by the employer to the Main trust or whether by the Main trust to a sub-Trust, were to be regarded as ’emoluments’.
He referred to a number of cases :A case involving a partner in KPMG who tried to assign his earnings { and, in parenthesis, he observed that Mr Thornhill had argued that it was an assignment of proprietary interest in his assets as a partner, in the only case that he had won: discreet smiles all round}
And the case of Collins, in which in the sale of shares part of the ‘consideration’ was to be paid to the Company to be held by someone else.
The overall argument, in Mr Ghosh’s submission is ‘YOU the employee are due the money. if was paid to someone else at your request, so what?
He went on to fillet the Defpra case, the EDwards and Roberts case, and showed that a true reading of these did not support any view that payments made by an employer into a Trust were anything other than remuneration.
in the present case, the footballers were given an unconditional guarantee that they would get paid, even if their Trust were to refuse a loan.
There was then discussion by Mr Ghosh of Lord Hodge’s judgement in a NIC case in which a distinction had been made by Lord H between earnings and emoluments in so far as National Insurance Contributions was concerned… The case of Mr McHugh, a company director who benefited because his Trust provided a pension for life ( when he was aged 54 , provided he lived to age 60).
There was no such contingency applying to the Trust loans: the football players had a very present hope and expectation of being paid here and now.
MR Ghosh’s position is that here we have the employee getting a payment of remuneration in a way that he is happy with..
Then Mr Ghosh gave his view of how Ramsay was to be understood.Basically, look at the true transaction, look at the partries, what is the transaction realistically.One is to assess the actual parties, and the relevant actions, and look at the provisions and then look at the actions realistically.
Is it part of a remuneration package?
Yes, it is! Thar’s what McLean got, and McCann…
He cited the SPI(?) case where they wanted to sell gilts to City Bank, and wanted them back commercially.To beat Ramsay, there was a contingency clause about there being a sale, and then a sale back.It is not good enough to builkd in artificial contingencies just to beat ramsay.
The true transaction was that there was no sale.
At this point Mr Ghosh explained that he was not attacking the findings of fact of the FTTT.
But we just have to accept that the payments made to the trust were the application of wages.
Ramsay, Edwards and Roberts tell us… the players were told if you get a loan we’ll pay you money, and the letter of wishes is what decides the settlement.
There followed a bit from Mr Ghosh about the ‘causal connection’ between the money paid into the Main trust and the the money paid to the Sub-trust and, subsequently to the player.
Lord McKenzie remarked that if there was no causal connection between the employer and the Main Trust, isn’t the link broken?
Mr Ghosh replied that the causal chain doesn’t start until the money is paid to the player following receipt of letter of wishes and loan application. [ I think that’s what he said]
And in the case of non-players, if the money was not paid to the appellant as an employee, then on what basis would it have been paid?
And Mr Ghosh moved on to show that what was paid was ‘remuneration’ He used McMillan’s ( Group tax and pensions manager)letter in which he used words and phrases such as ‘footballer’s packge…and balance recorded in the side-letters’ ‘remuneration package, part opayable through the trust’
and ‘for non-footballers, payment in lieu of bonus earned’
Mr Ghosh again emphasised he was not attacking the Findings of fact. But he remarked that the it was annoying the way the Tribunal recorded the evidence)
He then itemised certain sentences and word in the evidence given by McCann’s agent, Naco Novo’s agent, Mr Bain’s side letters relating to his discussion with SDM about looking for payment in respect of 6grand tax that Bain had had to pay,
and then, on the question of ‘unreserved disposal’ he faulted the the arguments in the Sempra case as being quite wrong.
And criticised a number of the FTTT’s paragraphs ( 234 misses the point,it has nothing to do with entitlement), 235 is incorrect (nobody is talking about ‘absolute transfer of funds),237 is just rubbish or irrelevant- ‘absolutely and unreservedly is NOT the test.
And the Finding in Law number 4 is mistaken( This seems to be about Trust Law, and Lord Drummond-Young clarified what Mr Ghosh was saying, and then both agreed on the point (whatever it was)
Mt ghosh continued by saying that the FTTT had made several non-findings of fact
and non-findings of law, and arrive at ‘Accordingly..’
at which point Lord Carloway interjected that ‘accordingly is usually followed by a non-sequitur.!
And then it was home time, at 4.00 pm.
Court reconvenes at 10.30 tomorrow.
I’ll leave it to the mods to shift this post off the main page.
marspapa
20:20 on 7 July, 2015 …………………
Say hello to Shakira, (my Val), say hello to the brave, say hello to the Provos………………..
And Halfway will be saved…………
Good Night ya Maddie…………
Regards & Hail Hail
TBM
PFayr
Wait…I want real proof.
HH
mike in toronto
20:25 on 7 July, 2015
Mony mony is my most favourite all time song…….when I first heard it (up the dancin’), I needed a sedative……..
67heaven I hope your right :)
According to media reports….
Good Evening.
I don’t know if you have seen this interview with Ian Crocker…
http://footballpink.net/2015/07/07/an-interview-with-ian-crocker-sky-sports-voice-of-scottish-football/
…but he comes out with the “Scottish Football and Celtic need a strong Rangers*” rubbish.
And here are my views on it…
https://theclumpany.wordpress.com/2015/07/07/crocker-doodle-doo/
TBM
Will do pal ..”take good care of yourself” !! Another wee tune :)
C.mon Big Pedro confirm Odegaard, as im taking pelters from the Bhoys:)
HH
Shut down……………. For Sure……………
Good Night………..
Regards & Hail Hail
TBM
robert88
Has he not always played European football?
Mony Mony .
Great choon.On the Roulette Label. Their Crimson and Clover – same label / same year ( 68 ?) is also a great choon.
Canamalar, Robert 88..
I just checked EUFA website.
Lose in 2 qualifying round of Champions league, there is no safety net.
If we lose in 3rd round, we go into Europa league play off, if we lose in play off round of Champions league then we automatically qualify for Europa league. So if we lose to Icelandic team then that’s our lot. However I can’t see that happening.
67 Heaven …
TJ’s autobiography was excerpted in the papers a few years ago … would be a really entertaining read … his record label was controlled by and like the mob …. threatening singers who wanted to get paid … TJ figures they stole royalties of something like $25 million from him!
Just for you, Green Man….. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkMgs3lFwkQ
Mcgeady going to Sunderland ?
I thought we did well with Jason Denayer,
a good young player who has vastly improved because of his stint with us,
So I personally don’t see a problem in bringing young Martin O to Celtic,
Big Cifti, Broony, Jo hansen, Efe, Griffiths and others would look after him on the Park, and I don’t think the boy is a shrinking violet, he would give as good as he got,,
This signing would be a great boost for us as a club,
We don’t have the multi millions, but we do have the big club status,
67Heaven
You would all be bored, if I didn’t keep it real:)
HH
Any kodi users on? Now I’ve done away with Sky will I have to settle for, ahem, Phoenix Nights, as my alternative viewing on matchdays?
Jimmynotpaul,
So the 16 year old is not guaranteed any European football if he comes to Celtic which was my point, thank you.
I see Mr Gosh is using his Tim name :oD)))))
TBM & Marspapa
A wee tune for you both…
Darrell Scott “You’ll Never Leave Pollok Alive.” (actually Harlan, Tennessee but who knows maybe it’s as nice as Pollok)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtSLMGc4VSA
HH
Chanamalar.
20.53.
Very sharp about Mr Ghosh.
Took a not so sharp JNP a minute to work that one out.
Squire, Fr Stephen, quickest mass in town
canamalar
But my point was we will make playoffs as a minimum and get Europe either way. Therefore if signed he would make appearances for us.
If we ever sign him which is unlikely and it was all an assumption.
Le prêt d’#Odegaard au Celtic Glasgow pourrait être finalisé dans les prochains jours. #realmadrid
The loan of # Odegaard Celtic Glasgow could be finalized in the coming days. #real Madrid
robert88,
I hope your right but I don’t take it as a given.
TSOAL,
The source being quoted is an Italian football website,
“Celtic have beaten off competition from several European clubs to sign Martin Ødegaard on loan from Real Madrid, according to media reports.
The Italian website TMW claims Odegaard, 16, will join the Scottish champions for a season having previously worked under the Glasgow club’s manager Ronny Delia at Norwegian club Stromgodset.”
So I’ll no be counting any chickens just yet.
RobertTressell
20:53 on
7 July, 2015
Any kodi users on? Now I’ve done away with Sky will I have to settle for, ahem, Phoenix Nights, as my alternative viewing on matchdays?
===================
If you have not done it have a look at TVAddons http://www.tvaddons.ag/ for a Version of Kodi that comes with some of the Streaming Resources already installed.
If its just movies folk want it comes with Genesis ready to use.
Im not sure yet what best sources are for live football. Not enough games to test.
I’m loving the report from London,
No disrespect to the FTTT but they were talking shite :oD)))))
Any help would be appreciated, does anyone know a channel to watch Shamrock Rovers on?My daughters boyfriend is a supporter.
Canamalar
Nae wonder my french was bad
amour
Don’t forget Zheng Zhi -back soon !
“Never judge a man unless you have walked two moons in his Adidas sambas”
Z.zhi 2011
Night all.
Enjoy.
Paul67 et al
Fantastic gesture by Billy McNeill to donate all his medals to Celtic Football Club. But not surprising given the nature of the man. Brilliant news!
sipsini I looked everywhere but couldn’t find it. They are leading 3 nil
TurkeyBhoy,
That was one of the dumbest replies I have had on here.
No I don’t expect every club in Europe clambering to sign our youth players. But I do expect us to give them a chance.
Get off yer high horse chief.
Your opinion is no more valid than mine.
25thmay1967
21:00 on 7 July, 2015
Visited St John’s a fortnight ago
Fr Brady had 6:30 finished for 6:57
For Sunday 12:45 ko’s St Alphonsus 11:00 is often done for 11:35 inc sermon and 2 hymns :D
Ghosh’s previous tax cases include UTT, Court of Session and Court of Appeal. These
“Julian Ghosh’s practice covers all areas of taxation. He is particularly well known for his corporate tax work and that involving European taxation issues. Recent notable cases include Schofield v HMRC (Court of Appeal); Land Securities plc v HMRC (Upper Tribunal); Newey t/a Ocean Finance (CJUE); Aberdeen Asset Management Ltd v HMRC (Court of Session). ”
In addition, he has been a First Tier and Upper Tier Deputy Judge on Tax Tribunals.
Tanks up yon cracked marble stair case.
Looking forward to next few weeks of CL qualifiers and how things turn out with regard to our signings, etc. If results are bad then too bad, that’s life, that’s football for you. I’ve been disappointed by Celtic player performances on pitch all down the years since the early sixties and never thought of blaming the board.