Celtic surrendered another two points to fall further behind in the championship race, drawing 0-0 at home against Hibernian. It was a unorganised looking performance from the home team who gave Graham Stack little to do in the Hibernian goal.
Gary Hooper squandered Celtic’s only gilt-edged chance of the game when, after playing a one-two with Anthony Stokes, he struck the outside of the post with Ki available for the square pass. Anthony Stokes had earlier tested Stack, who failed to hold the ball but did enough to clear.
When the same teams met on Wednesday James Forrest transformed the game when he drifted inside but he spent most of today’s game adrift on the right wing. On two occasions he cut inside with purpose, once testing Stack with a blistering shot from 22 yards and later when a 25 yard pile-drive struck the crossbar, but Hibs were content to limit Celtic to such speculative efforts.
Neil Lennon was justified in his criticism of his front pairing of Stokes and Hooper today but Celtic were equally clueless in midfield. There appeared to be no cohesion and there was certainly not a productive match plan.
Motherwell’s away win in Inverness gives the Lanarkshire side a three point lead, having played a game more, going into next week’s crucial game against Celtic at Fir Park. Manager-less St Johnstone dropped three points at home this afternoon, leaving them four points behind Celtic in the fight for the last Europa League place.
This is where we are people, scrapping between Motherwell and St Johnstone. Get used to it.
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James, various
yeah you’re right, we are heroes. I agree!
You are in a vocal minority or a silent majority, we’ll find out more on 30th November when school staff go on strike over pensions (right to strike, picked the wrong reason, but that’s a a different argument).
Anyhoo…
You had a pop at Auldheid last post, probably correctly attributing financial motives to Celtic’s interest in a membership scheme. What are you doing to ensure any such scheme doesn’t become a cash cow?
greendreamz says:
What I was asking for was a facility on the/any post where you could thumb up/thumb down which would automatically total and push answers up the table so people could easily see and comment on what is actually important to those who post?
People being people, we tend to only be interested in furthering our own opinion, or at least not challenging our ego. The thing I love about CQN is that reading posts is unavoidable. I’ve learned a lot from reading posts I had (initially) little interest in. Had opinions I thought were one hundred percent right turned on their head by reading posts I didn’t think I wanted to read. That’s the strength of CQN, the power not simply to bolster our ego but in fact to strip it down, tear it up, and let us see that there are opinions out there, that however unpopular might strike a resonance with you or change your opinion on something. Tarant posted a rather fine link to a song by KMFDM tonight. KMFDM stands for Kein Mehrheit Für Die Mitleid – roughly translated as “No pity for the majority”, this and the rhetorical fallacy of the fallacious appeal to numbers should tell you where I’m coming from – that every voice on CQN is at equal level. And every voice on CQN gets the same importance, the same space and the same (hopefully) attention. Pushing things “up the table” on the basis that more people like it takes peoples voices away. Invariably that’s a bad thing.
Wheres the arrogance in wanting the important issues at the top of the list?
Issues *you* deem important. That’s the arrogance. You deny a voice to others on the basis of your own preference. Basically you are assuming that you know which articles or opinions will trend higher and only have interest in reading, or showing those.
I had this sort of tosh at AGM’s over 15 years ago when they kept handing out £52 dividends when all I wanted was on field investment and the “blazers” kept voting for the status quo because they thought their shares would increase in value forever.
I agree. The club should never issue dividends. We are a football club, not an investment vehicle. Like I said earlier, we the fans, are the 99%. Well… in share numbers we’re greater, but the minority share bloc owned by Desmond and his apparatchiks will see us denied any say in the club we support, follow and love. And I genuinely mean everyone’s opinion, the full range. We are all denied a voice.
Well the shares are worth next to hee haw now and for more than 70% of the period we as a football team have been all over the place with the exception of MON and WGS tenure.
When the club invested highly in the most important football position at the club, we prospered. Cheap appointments yield cheap results sadly. Over the course of our history that same thing has rung true. You’re right, our results have been all over the place when the board have got strategy wrong. Ultimately Rangers got that same strategy right. If you can’t invest a lot of money, invest what you do have in the very best manager you can afford. Walter Smith demonstrated, painfully, the sense in that approach.
I think you may well find that winning and arrogance are intrinsically linked-ask the Lisbon Lions. They were arrogant enough to think they could beat anyone…….AND THEY DID
They weren’t arrogant at all. History has proven them right, they *could* beat anyone. The confidence they had was borne of cold, hard reality. They thought they were the best team in the world for a good reason – they were.
/p
tarrant:
If that scheme is presented as nothing more than a means of this club leeching more money out of the fans – and mate, that is exactly what it is, a noble intention which they are going to try and squeeze every last buck out of – then, in the current climate, it will sink like a stone and everyone who puts a penny into it will end up with a white elephent.
Our fans are big boys and girls. Those who paid for the name on a brick will be perfectly happy with it. Those who have money to burn might well use their membership certificates for a wee barbecue.
The rest of us will vote with our feet. I won’t do a thing about it. People will either see it for what it is and judge it based on what they get, which right now is nothing, or they will see what they hope that it is and then they’ll get what they deserve.
Either way, what started out as a good idea with a noble intent will do no more than become another wedge issue.
Kevtic,
i agree the strategy of filling the squad with loads of young ones is in the hope of finding the diamond or diamonds so as to be sold off for big money,
neil wanted sol campbell, jimmy bullard, and james the goal keeper at the start of last season, he knew he needed experience with youger ones to help him combat walter smiths side but these guys [whether you like them or not ] was who neil wanted he did not get any of them, in my opinion this was because they
would more than likely not have any resale value, for me this is were the strategy is flawed,and were i believe the ceo is determinng who comes in and who does not, not on how good he will be for the club but how much we can make on them, if they are free and willing to take just a one year deal then maybe but anything more forget it because it would mean a bit of serious net spending.
Georgio Samaras.
There’s a good focal point for ONE PART of the problem – the team.
Is he a good player?
Why don’t we play him every week?
How does the manager use him?
What formation is he best deployed in?
What formation is he usually deployed in? Why?
Why does he divide fans in a way that, say, Anthony Stokes or Mark Wilson, doesn’t?
Was he a player with potential and we didn’t find it? How?
Was he actually shit all along and we didn’t notice? How?
Was he actually shit all along and we did notice but hoped he’d get better? How?
How is it possible to ask 10 open questions about one player in the squad?
What does that tell you about the player/team/squad/manager(s)?
Heavy blog tonight, and probably appropriately so.
No room for my adding finely shaved raw onion to a roll n slice sausage making all the difference…
James Forrest is Lennon says:
30 October, 2011 at 01:59
The Celtic board of directors makes decisions I can barely comprehend for reasons I do not understand. Part of that is their total lack of communication with the fans. This is part of Auldheid’s Grand Delusion too, that the reason they don’t talk to us is because no avenue to do so exists, much as the reason some of us don’t spend more money is that Celtic simply haven’t given us enough to spend it on.
____________________
What avenue exists then, how do they engage with the support in dialogue? If the mechanism exists where exactly is it?
Now if you create the capacity for such a dialogue, by its very creation the desire to have dialogue must exist. What I think you mean (not what I am saying you mean btw)
is the Board have no desire for such dialogue so will not create the mechanism?
You may turn out to right but based on what I have been told and shown, if it does not happen, they have changed their mind , possibly because some folk will never want to be part of it and prefer the drama of disunity.
On your second point there are Cetic fans who would avail themselves of the opportunity to become supporters and that is who the scheme will want to reach, not the ones who already are supporters. I have clarified this and still you misrepresent what I have said.
Oh and on the meetings that you offered on the blog that never took place?.
Do you want me to post the e mails of the meeting suggested earlier this year when you did not come back with a date and time when I asked you to suggest them despite a reminder from me?
Sorry James but you aint as squeaky clean as you have been making out.
IF @ 159
Never said players were scared to come because of players like elbows.
But if potential players routinely see tackles on our players that merit yellow or red cards;
Lafferty on Hinkel
Bougy on Keane
Weir on Hooper
Bougy on Hooper
And in some cases career threatening injuries (Hinkel again) go unpunished… Who would blame them for taking the easy option??
Discuss
Tarrant…
Agree with all of your above post. Especially….
We have been reduced to consumers and customers. We may as well be buying JLS calendars, except with JLS you are guaranteed a shite product. Our expectations are so much higher, but our highly paid custodians do not appreciate that.
I doubt that Dermot Desmond has any conception of what we, the fans, feel – He surrounds himself with yes men and facilitators. He’s a despot, and has no interest in listening to others, or dissenting voices. The no show at the AGM showed exactly where we rank on Desmond’s radar. The rest of the board? We’re sheep. Sheep to be told what to do and when to do it. Consume, obey and die. That’s our role. Keep our mouths shut and our wallets open.
I made good on my promise during the close season – I gave up my season book. Some health issues (a knackered, but soon to be fixed/replaced hip, so it’s not a terrible affliction) helped ease me into that decision, but underlying that I felt I could no longer pay a part in supporting a regime at the club that I regard as utterly foreign to my idea of what Celtic should be, what Celtic should represent.
I’m still relatively young, but looking around me at Celtic Park, I saw a lot of older people. Not a lot of kids, and I couldn’t help but think that the short termism employed by the board will result in a missing generation from Celtic. What would it hurt to let kids in for free? To let students, OAPs and the unemployed in for a £5? If we’re having to downsize, let’s do so in style! instead of fleecing the fans, give them all something back – reduce prices for all, or give some Scottish cup games in there. If our league is crap and we can’t escape, if we must downsize, we still have more muscle than hibs et al due to our bigger fan base and the commercial activities linked to that. We could still prosper whilst *building* fan base and helping fans.
Like I say, my current position is this – I will not buy Celtic merchandise. I will not buy Celtic magazines or media (although I will donate to the unofficial Paul67 and GB when I get organised). I will not buy match tickets of any sort. Basically, I have stopped being (in Fergus McCann’s words) a supporter and am now just a fan. That situation will continue until Desmond is gone. I despise the man and all he stands for.
/p
james,
if that;s how the scheme is presented, I’m not sure it will be successful. Maybe I’m overestimating the “target market”. Maybe there’s a need for action beforehand to ensure it isn;t just a shitey buy-a-brick scheme for the dullards. And an ensuing action to communicate to the supporters / putative “socios” that this is a meaningful act to act, not just a certificate on the wall and the chance to bitch about Dermot Desmond.
tarrant says:
30 October, 2011 at 02:25
Celtic are well aware of the dangers of it being misrepresented as a cash cow. Even though most of the cash supporters provide goes into players pockets anyway.
Tarrant @ 238
You ask too many questions!
Is he good enough?
Imo; too good for the current bunch around him
NL Celt for life 2.52
the fact that I can ask so many questions about one squad player is a big problem afai concerned.
Neil Lennon will always be one of us but he shouldn’t be our manager.
tarrant:
I’ll have a crack at those mate.
1) Yes, I think Samaras is a gifted footballer. The Scottish game might not suit him, but, and I say this knowing he’s in his early 20’s, he is going to be a star somewhere. I never doubted it, not for one minute.
2) See above. Maybe the system isn’t right. Maybe the style doesn’t suit him. There’s a guy with a top drawer Champions League scoring pedigree. Scored for fun in that competition, and indeed was a 30 goal a season guarentee at his last club before Celtic. In the Champions League he had scored against the best teams in the world, regularly. Here, he was a failure according to most. Hugh Keevins even scathingly said he was never a football player in his life. About a year after he left he came back to Celtic Park with his club, on European business, and of course, he scored a decisive goal. His name? Harald Brattback. Sometimes it just doesn’t work.
3) The manager uses him for his physical presence, as a loan striker, or as a target man. Madness when one considers he has pace, he can show remarkable first touch and awareness and he hits a mean ball when he can see the goal. In other words, he’s a perfect target FOR a target man player, using his pace to get past men and score. See his goal at Ibrox last year, the first one. A beautiful example of what Samaras can do when he is playing to his strengths. In that example he wasn’t the provider, the target man, as he’s so often used … he was the guy running onto a great through ball … and it was awesome.
4) As above. As the guy who plays off the kind of player the manager tries to use him as. Sign Baba Diawara in January, play him alongside Sammi for three game … if there is not a return of a least the same number of goals I will personally pay for his taxi to the airport.
5) He is usually deployed in a position completely the opposite of the one he should be played in. Why? That’s easy. For the last couple of years, since Fortune left, but going back further than that, we have not had a tall, physical ball holding striker who Sammi could play off. And attempts to sign one have been stymied by … we can only speculate. But Lenny knows this well, which is why he flew to Portugal to watch the big lad Baba.
6) You’ve seen shades of opinion on this board tonight. My own opinions on Stokes and Wilson are well known. I think Stokes is a player who should only have had one shot at signing for Celtic, and us taking him this time around is an admission of how far he fell and how far we had fallen in the corresponding period. His last stint at a club outside Scotland was with Sunderland Reserves, where his strike partner was the last failed effort to find a target man to link Sammi up with … Daryll Murphy. I think Stokes is a sub-standard player who looks good (at times) in a sub-standard league. Mark Wilson, on the other hand, is the unluckiest player alive. I think he’s a tremendous footballer who, but for injuries, would have been better by far than Hutton, who went for £9 million, and would have about 50 caps.
7) He was a player of unbelievable potential, and we did find it, even earlier than he was got here. Martin O’Neill wanted him as a priority in his final year in Holland, but Man City, and I mean post billionaire plaything Man City, offered £7 million for a kid who was still in his teens at the time, and the Celtic board – rightly – didn’t match the bid. He moved to a strange country, the second of his career, and was a little bit overwhelmed with the pace of the English game … yet he still did well for them. I thought it was Xmas when we signed him, knowing how highly O’Neill had rated him, and at times he looks the player he would be with more time on the ball.
8) Let me put it this way … Man City were not the only club interested. He was a rated as a once-in-a-generation talent coming out of Greece, and he is rarely out of their national side. They were last time he scored a goal … and it was a peach in case you missed it.
9) At times he looks sensational. At others sectionable. Often in the same game. Occasionally in the same minute. Part of it, I think, and I am mocked for the belief, is that at times he is thinking faster than the players around him, expecting them to assume positions it would never enter their brains to try and assume. Played alongside the likes of Anthony Stokes, who if he wasn’t a footballer would make an excellent post officer worker, it’s easy to see why his passes occasionally end up in dead space where it seems he had expected a player to be … as a one-on-one penalty box player, I have seem him beat men and rattle in unsavable shots.
10) Neil Lennon isn’t the only manager not to get the best out of this guy. Nor is he the only manager who sees enough that he’s not ready to quit yet. These guys DO know more about the game than we do, and they see things the average one-minute attention span supporter doesn’t see. The mirror image to him is Kris Boyd, who had the end product, the Rangers fans idolised him for it, but three Rangers managers didn’t rate him highly enough to play him in big games … see Neil Lennon and Anthony Stokes btw …. and look at him now. Do you even know where he is, or the last goal he scored? I neither know, nor care, and he’s the SPL All-Time Top Scorer.
Go figure THAT one out …
Auld Neil Lennon heid:
You are a good man, with good intentions, being taken for a ride. Your idea will be appropriated by Celtic as nothing more than a means of taking the money of the people who already give too much of it to a failed plan.
The meetings you suggested before, they were at a time – AS YOU WELL KNOW – when I did not have the financial means to attend them. I know it would only have been a few drinks in the pub, but I made it clear at the time that was a luxury I could not afford. Don’t dangle emails at me. This is the second time in a week I’ve had to defend myself by stating my previous personal difficult circumstances on this blog and it’s the last I’ll do it.
I offered you two in the last week. You’ve made it clear tonight where you stand.
Auld Neil Lennon heid says:
30 October, 2011 at 02:51
Celtic are well aware of the dangers of it being misrepresented as a cash cow. Even though most of the cash supporters provide goes into players pockets anyway.
share
================
Two huge points there. I’ll deal with the first, as it;’s specific to our conversation tonight. [Point (2) would be about the transfer of cash from us to players, which is universal in top-level football and irrelevant to the immediate argument about the future ownership of Celtic.]
1) “Celtic are well aware of the dangers of it being misrepresented as a cash cow. Why is Celtic’s concern one of misrepresentation?
It is a cash cow OR it isn’t a cash cow. What makes it one or the other?
A membership scheme should be a democratic arrangement where members/socios /whatever are directly involved in the decision making process, even if that is as diluted as it is at Barca where they elect the president. That’s what they pay for, and every member pays the same, for the same voting right.
By definition that requires a root-and-branch change of structure (which as a consequence means GTF, DD. Fine by me).
Let the fans/supporters/members define the success criteria and make PL or future post-holders be accountable to that. “But the Easterhouse plebs will expect us to win the champions league within 3 years…”. It is entirely feasible to place reasonable parameters on those criteria, as long as they are criteria defined by the Celtic “family”/”membership”/”diaspora” – call it what you want, it is a large heterogeneous group, inclusive and wonderful, with room for James Forrest, Auldheid, and Dermot Desmond, but each occupies an equal space; we can negotiate the small print later.
tarrant:
If the scheme worked on the basis you’ve just said I would beg, borrow and steal the money to be part of it.
One man, one vote, everyone accountable. Where do I sign up?
James Forrest is Lennon says:
30 October, 2011 at 03:04
You think I’m being taken for a ride in spite of knowing nothing about what has taken place.
Celtic have put a fair bit of time and energy into this already just to fool lil ol me.
A reply to the first e mail or reminder would have put me in the picture, but now that you know how it feels when you think you have been misrepresented to a wider audience, you might be less inclined to do so again.
JF. 3.01
an astonishingly comprehensive answer! Are you actually Samaras!? Or his agent?
I’m not going to use GS as a stick to beat Neil Lennon with, and in fact you could argue that Neil’s gotten more out of GS than other managers. But you could argue the opposite. I would love to see Sammi play in Italy for a lower league team, I think he’d be fantastic there.
Auld Neil Lennon heid:
OF COURSE THEY HAVE BEEN SUPPORTIVE!!! YOU ARE PROPOSING A SCHEME WHICH GIVES THEM MONEY FOR NOTHING!!!
Jesus, what are you THINKING? They’re not doing it to take you for a ride! They’re using it as a scheme to take a LOT of people for a ride!
You said it yourself. This was all about belonging. About dialogue. And THAT is the part they are still “working on?”
I bet the part with the Direct Debits is all raring to go though, eah? Are you daft? You don’t SOUND daft, but this definitely does.
tarrant:
Haha, no I just love football and I like to think I am a good judge of a player. This guy … I actually danced round the house, texted everyone, phoned the people I couldn’t text, the day he signed for Celtic. I really did think it was a move so far out of left field … I couldn’t believe we were getting this guy for free, even if it was only half a season.
You best believe I sang some boardroom praises that day. And when we signed him on a permanent … oh man.
It guts me to see this guy pummelled every week by people who’ve never seen him playing on a bigger stage, with better players around him, in a system which brings out his best. I thought he was perfect for playing in Europe this season, but injuries and an unsettled team, and that old nightmare about the system, ends that dream for another year …
Yeah Italy would be a perfect environment for his talents. Spain even more so. He thrived in Holland, of course, where the emphasis is on playing on the deck, and that’s where he’d be a storming talent.
tarrant says:
30 October, 2011 at 02:55
——————————————————————————————————-
Agree with you about NL who will always have a candle in my heart but, too soon as manager!
The situation i think we now find ourselves in is that, the managerial circle will be, well briefed as to the workings behind the scenes ala, player recruitment policy of, Lawwell and Park ?
I know i don’t have the physical evidence to prove my theory but, I think that either or, both Lawwell and Park have their fingers in the Celtic cookie-jar ?
I mean, how many trialists have been brought to the club and, how many have been a success ?
And yet, that seemingly failed policy has been operated for too long at CP. IMO!
The reason why I highlight that particular part of club policy is because, when Hugh Adams(Rangers Pools supremo), was forced to quit Ipox because he could see that, Murray was driving the huns to oblivion, at the time HA left the huns he gave an interview where he said, “i can’t understand the criticism the Celtic directors got from the, media/fans for not joining in the Rankers spending spree when you consider the financial heavy-weights on the Celtic board they will steer their club away from financial risk.”
Now, surely those same, ‘financial heavy-weights’ must see that, when you charge the Celtic fans £28 and upwards per-game then, filling the team with free-transfer and, bosman types of players dizny add up! IMO!
With Lawwell and Park as the hands on the bicuit-tin governers then, for me its plain to see why, any manager with a good stock/savvy/street-wise/nobodys-mug reputation on his CV will, in all probability steer himself well clear of CP and, that will remain the case until the 2 problematic members of staff mentioned above are, situated in different roles within the club or, removed all togother then, i’m afraid the hun iar will continue, despite administration! IMO!
“Sack The Board Now or, We’ll Pass The Huns On The Way Down!!! CSC. :(
bicuit-tin = biscuit-tin
jf 3.21
James, you don’t sign up because there’s nothing there to sign up to. Nothing YET.
You become a person who makes it happen. You get together with Auldheid or Harry Brady or Matt McGlone or Jeanette Findlay or Paul Brennan or the Green Brigade. You engage with the people who already have either or both of a dialogue with the Celtic board or an engagement with active members of the support. You help to mobilise the Celtic support with your fantastic polemic and you exploit the tipping point that is coming – coming soon – when the bankrupt huns are on the brink of winning the SPL ahead of a rudderless Celtic team and an angry Celtic support.
I know you’ve watched Glengarry Glen Ross. Fuck or walk, close or hit the bricks.
And yes, my watch costs more than your car.
(Don’t tell me you don’t have a car. I don’t have a watch!)
expand your mind and the ‘Tic will follow
Kevin
you took some abuse here yest for your comments. Some of it I understand.
1. What is your beef with John Park?
2. Careful what you allege about hands in cookie-jars, your comments could be actionable. Although having said that, what money has made it into the cookie-jar? Jp can take no credit for Aiden McGeady, he was in the Celtic system for years.
3. Tonight I am Larry David. You do this too much: “IMO!” You’re posting on a blog, we know it’s your opinion, and it is sometimes but not always exciting.
tarrant says:
30 October, 2011 at 03:17
Well if it is seen as simply another way of extracting more money from a well that is already dry it will not work for two reasons. The well is already dry and it objects to being sucked again (if you will pardon the expression).
If it raises money then what purpose would that be put to and how would we know it was happening? If to bloster squad quality why not (hence my point about players benefitting)
What though if it is simply a self financing service that lets Celtic relate better to the support by listening to their issues and responding?
To take a case in point – the joint sponsorship deal. What if it was at the end of the day the only deal in town and to turn it down deprived the club of money to spend on players? The club feel this is good enough reason to go ahead but the message from the membership is no way. The club then ask for indemnity against complaint if lack of the income is reflected in squad quality.They get it and everyone gets on with it or on reflection the membership reluctantly say go ahead.
In such an exchange there might be enough information conveyed to reach a decision, that whilst not everyine is happy with, they at least recognise has taken account of all views.
As a PLC Celtic are always going to have the final say but at least the support would be in a better position to influence decisions than they are now.
tarrant says:
30 October, 2011 at 03:39
———————————————————————————————————-
Ghood Points M8!
I have to say that, anything that Matt McGlone or the Green Brigade are involved in, in terms of re-structuring the club or, whatever….I would back to the hilt!
Matt McGlone, excelled as a member of, The Celts For Change group who were pivotal in re-shaping the clubs future and, for me, shone like a beacon when he refused to be dictated to in terms of what he should write in his column for the Celtic View and, quit the CV on a point of principle!
The Green Brigade are without peer! IMO!
“They’re leaders of the future and, they’re far away from home…..”
Above lyrics from: “A flight of the Earls” by the Wolfetones! A nice wee song! IMO!
tarrant:
The only way I will support it is if it’s a genuine vehicle for change.
Right now it is one of two things, and one of them I will simply sit and watch die the death it deserves and the other I will actively oppose.
The first thing it could be is a way of leeching money out of the fans without giving them a single, concrete thing to call their own. Vague notions of a voice – which because of free media you can get anywhere; Hell CQN Magazine is the proof of it, on every page – and more Jam Tomorrow promises of investment in the team … heard it all before, from the same people, and the bottom line is that even if the first was worth the outlay I would not trust them to deliver on it and I purely and simply do not believe they will deliver the second. Money is their God, and to give them more … well, a fool and his are soon parted and the burned hand teaches best. My worry would be that the eventual realisation that it’s a con-job would devastate the prospects of REAL reform for years to follow.
The second thing it looks like to me is a far more worrying, far more insidious one, and I already see shades of it in what Auldheid has already laid out, and if it edges any further down this road I will actively oppose the policy however I can.
And that is if it becomes what it has the awful, awful potential to be … not a unifying strategy but a goddamned divisive one, which splits the fans into two groups. Those who “contribute” and those who do not. Those who want to pay for the “privelage” of being “associated” with Celtic … those who “pay to belong” and those who are denied a voice because they cannot or will not “support the club” financially at a time when it is interested only in profit.
Dress it up any old way you like, but if it becomes that it should be killed just to watch it die. It is utterly at odds with EVERYTHING this club is supposed to be about. Celtic is a family open to all. Not a pay-for-membership exclusive sect. I’ll say again what I did earlier; I do not need a piece of paper to tell me I am part of this Family. No-one can deny me “belonging” to it because the guy next to me has a certificate and I do not.
Anyone who suggests otherwise should be ashamed.
James Forrest is Lennon says:
30 October, 2011 at 03:26
Do’nt be naive. How else would they start talking?
Where has all your polemic got you? Use your head and put your heart in neutral.
Once two sides start talking things happen, especially when mutual objectives are recognised..
Auld Neil Lennon heid:
This is my last word on it. What you’ve just written convinces me this idea should be strangled at birth.
This is all about paying for the “privilage” of being listened to. If our board is demanding money from us before they will even acknowledge our views then this idea is as corrupt and bent and reeks to high Heaven as badly as anything that has been vomited out of Ibrox in the last ten or twenty years.
And your example is beyond anything I ever heard in my life, so blatantly cheeky as it reads. You’re saying that in the event Peter Lawwell fails in his duty to find a sponsor befitting our name, and decides to go with a cheese making company in Dorsett, and we tell him that this is not on, and he rejects it on that basis, that the board would insist at that point that the voice which we did it all for will be silenced by an indemnity against moaning about the costs of HIS failure? This is what our money would buy us?
“As a PLC Celtic are always going to have the final say but at least the support would be in a better position to influence decisions than they are now.”
In truth, we’d be in EXACTLY the same position as right now … with lighter wallets.
This whole idea is ludicrous. We would be paying to be heard … paying to have the voices we should ALREADY have as fans.
Peddle this all you like. Dress it up how you want. I want nothing to do with it.
There are already different classes of Celtic supporters.
Shareholders.
Boxholders.
Season ticket holders.
Guys that go to the away games.
Guys that go to half the home games.
Guys that used to go to every game, but can’t now.
Guys that used to go to some games, but won’t now.
Folk that are too far away to go.
Folk that can’t afford to go.
Really passionate armchair supporters.
How about fifty quid a year from hundreds of thousands of supporters for one vote in what happens?
We would need to remove our big shareholders, but it could be done.
I would love the drama of the election campaigns… JF v Auldhied, Estadio v Mags, The Singing Detective v Rancho Francho…
p8ddy says:
30 October, 2011 at 02:29
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Something getting lost in translation I think? I meant anyones posting gets a vote by anyone who thinks it merits it. That way, in the natural selection of things, we vote to agree/disagree with an opinion and the most agreed with opinion (on a given topic) rises to the top of the page. Thereby avoiding getting lost in amongst the tosh.
GRAVITAS: So if you like, we the posters/voters give it the gravitas we think it deserves-its not about what I’m posting. The big issues come to the fore and the drivel recedes to the rear.
ARROGANCE: I listened to Bobby Lennox on a youtube clip of Celtic TV recently say that “we believed we could beat anyone”. Confidence IMO is believing in yourself to achieve a given outcome. ie pass an exam. Arrogance is about having the inner belief that you can go out and compete and beat anyone or anything anywhere-given you have the talent. You need it to prevail and all the winners throughout recorded time have had the trait of arrogance in some form.
Other than that we are agreeing with everything else……I think.
Finally it seems the the use of the verb GRAVITAS has touched the sensitivities of some. Good it was supposed to-we are supposed to be MORE than a football club.
In a very sectarian Glasgow of 1967 I watched black and white television of Celtic in Lisbon as a 7 year old Roman Catholic.The currency I received from that epic win on that day has carried me through my entire life with all its ups and downs…….that is GRAVITAS
I’m toiling now James, I’ll be off to bed soon. Will be up in 3 hours with the kids!
If you look at Barca or Real or other socio-style clubs, they have over 150,000 members, so I think that model, with those numbers, is not exclusive. I’ve been on holidays in different parts of Spain and met socios who don;t go to many games (although they are entitled to – I’m not clear on that though).
I also think if you make it cheap – £10 for example – so that you are a member, not a season-ticket holder, then that makes it inclusive and open to many, like me, who want to contribute to the club for something in return, but can;t go to matches and don;t want to wear ads for Tennents; without it being purely a cash-cow.
What you get for your £10 is open to discussion – do you decide on sponsors, strip design, TV rights, chairman, stadium naming rights…? Any of which would be more than we get now. And what about accountability, how to enshrine that?
Auld Neil Lennon heid:
My heart and my head are in PERFECT sync on this one.
The idea is to create a “membership” scheme which splits the fans into two groups. Those who “contribute” and will thereboy “have a voice” and those who do not, or cannot, and thereby will have no voice at all.
Those who contribute and pay into this will be heard. Maybe not listened to far less have their views turned into policy, but they will be at least invited to state their views for the record, and … errr … that’s about it. All monies made will be diverted into causes and for reasons of the board’s choosing, and there will be the option (on the board side) of having the “members” sign an indemnity waving their right to even HAVE their opinion if the board sees fit.
Those are the broad strokes of what you’ve outlined, yes?
So in the end, we are left with what? The Celtic support divided into two camps. Those who pay not to be listened to, and those don’t pay and therefore are not even considered worthy of listening to.
We gain precisely what in that scenario? We benefit exactly how? That lines of communication – which they could open, right now, for free, if they WANTED THEM – could be created between the club and those who fund it?
The idea is … appalling. On every level. In every way.
Rascar Capac:
Like I said earlier mate, where do I sign up? Giving us a genuine voice, a share of the power, a real chance to make a real difference …
I’m in all the way. That’s an idea I could be get behind, that I would support with my voice, with my efforts, with my cash.
Celtic Football Club 2012 … the way it was supposed to be. Owned by the fans.
tarrant says:
30 October, 2011 at 03:49
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I mention…’cookie-jars’ as a highlight to what I feel is going on at ‘our’ club.
Nobody but, nobody persists with an operation that dizny bear fruit unless……..
well i’m sure you know the rest ?
If it’s straight talk you would like to deal in then….I think that PL is our Vladimir Romanov!
PL is planted into CFC to milk as much as he can on the order of DD! IMO!
As for, actionable comments….I say something izny right inside ‘our’ club and, I smell a rat!
DD’s puppets in the media are already spouting about, “the £50mill DD has put into CFC!”
In 16/17 years that apparent, £50mill pails to insignificance from a billionaire when, compared to the input from the Celtic support over the same period ?
DD dines out on the kudo’s that go along with being the principal shareholder in CFC.
Some of DD’s puppets in the media go as far as to say, “without DD, there would be NO CFC ?”
I begg to differ. If DD’s fellow billionaire shareholder, Denis O’Brien can find his way to, finance the deal for the ROI team manager then, maybe CFC would be better served if, DD sold his shareholding to DO’B ?
As for my actionable comment above….I suspect something is going on!
I can’t prove it but, i know that so called, savvy business men don’t keep a, proven failure of a policy going unless, unseen benefits are being had ?
JF, auldheid
For clarity…
I don’t think a membership/socio scheme is compatible with a plc, I think it has to be one or the other. I am clear that I would prefer a membership arrangement. How it works in Scotland/SPL/UK is up to discussion, but what we are doing now is not, in my opinion, any better for the Celtic community today and looking forward than the nepotic arrangement under the Kellys / Whites etc would be.
HH, and good night
http://youtu.be/MRHeTIcgwH8
tarrant
Ghood Night M8!
YNWA