The potential scenario of a Scottish Premier League club going out of business, becoming an ex-club, has played out in several places since we discussed it last month. As a result, we have all had an opportunity to establish our views on the matter, what would and would not be an acceptable reaction by the league and SFA.
The first ‘insolvency event’ of a failing club is likely to be the appointment of an administrator to protect the company from immediate creditors. This would draw a 10 point penalty. The choice of the administrator for a football club could be a controversial subject, especially if some creditors stand to lose a considerable amount of money through any rushed deal. For example, although Rangers have a considerable potential liability to HMRC hanging over them, their creditors might feel that a period of administration stretching several years into the future would enable all debts to be paid in full, a position not all administrators would necessarily agree with.
It’s normal for directors to appoint an administrator prior to a creditor getting to court but if creditors don’t feel the appointment is likely to serve their best interests they can apply to appoint their own. These battles can get acrimonious.
In the days after an administrator is appointed the club may not be in a position to fulfil its fixtures. When Gretna’s administrator informed the Scottish Football League they could not guarantee they would be able to fulfil the following season’s fixtures the league relegated them two divisions, to the bottom rung of the league structure. This proved to be a temporary position before the administrator admitted defeat and folded the company. Precedent suggests we should look out for a double relegation if a club in administration has to tell the league they cannot fulfil fixtures.
There is no point waiting until a well-organised administrator presents a fait accompli to the league before we look for precedents and debate an appropriate response. For the integrity of the Scottish game, football fans need to be ready for this debate. Where possibly, colours should be pinned to the mast.
One outcome of the online debate in the last couple of days (thanks to untiring work of our friend Phil) is that Celtic were forced to consider this question. I sought and received assurances that they will not vote to admonish owners of an ex-football club with a paltry point penalty, allowing them to reform as though nothing happened the following season.
The question is still-hypothetical, so clubs are not in a position to comment officially yet, but we are in a healthier position for the debate and should encourage high profile supporters of other clubs to engage the debate as some from our own club have recently.
Fans Against Criminalisation are holding a pubic meeting on Saturday, 12 November, at Whitehill Secondary School, 280 Onslow Drive, Denniston, with Michael McMahon, MSP, among others, speaking. Try to make it along to support this important initiative before you are criminalised by a combination of stealth and apathy.
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thanx fergus
i just wonder what happens when there simply isnt enough money to pay all the creditors- as is often the case. Was it the case at murderwell? and those creditors elect to receive lets say 10% of the total due instead of 100% on the basis that something is better than nothing
does something like that make the huns babkrupt or does it let them off the hook?
Maybe its been mentioned already, but todays DR carries a 2 page Mark Hateley column where he slams FIFA over the poppy wearing issue. Headed by a large caption of the Germany and England teams doing the pre-match Nazi salute in 1938, Hateley gives it large to the World governing body with..’it makes me sick to my stomach that these people from football’s house of ill repute should now be attempting to lay down guidelines in decent behaviour to the rest of us’…..
I know, I know. Where do we start?
House of ill repute?
Guidelines?
Decent behaviour?
You’d have thought that Mark would have learned something about the club he was at between 90-95.
But the words Fascism, Racism and Nazi salutes have nothing to do with that club, do they Mark?
And by the way, ‘the sick section of society who attach themselves to Celtic and manage to disgrace all the country’? Dont remember them ever doing the famous nazi pose at a football match in Israel or anywhere else for that matter. I suppose you consider them to be sicker because of one banner on one day, than those who follow your old club, some openly displaying an alignment with much of Hitlers policies and indeed carry memberships of extreme right wing organisations.
The hypocrisy would normally be mindboggling but when we consider who the piece was written by, and in what newspaper it was published, it really only laughable.
Hateley epitomises exactly what this comic is all about.
Poppy Cock!
HH
2010 Never Again
http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-premier/celtic/278522-spl-chief-backs-study-into-return-of-standing/?
SPL chief ‘open-minded’ on safe standing
Neil Doncaster says he would like to see the possibility of safe-standing sections at top flight grounds explored.
10 November 2011 14:16 GMT
Comment
The creation of safe-standing areas at SPL grounds would require a change in the league’s rules. Pic: ©SNS Group
Scottish Premier League chief executive Neil Doncaster says he would like consideration to be given to the return of standing at top flight grounds.
Celtic are currently looking into the feasibility of creating a safe-standing section, following a proposal at their recent AGM from their Supporters Trust.
“Personally, I am open-minded about it,” Doncaster said at a Real Radio roadshow in Glasgow on Wednesday.
“It would need a change in SPL rules, ditto in SFA rules, because both sets of rules prohibit standing in the top division.
“But I think we should remain open-minded about it. I would like to see it explored. That is not an SPL position – that is a personal position.”
Only SPL rules forbid standing sections in the stadiums of top flight clubs, with no legislation in Scots law preventing terracing.
Top flight stadiums in Scotland have been all-seated since 1994. To enforce a change in the rules, eight of the SPL’s 12 member clubs would have to vote in favour of any plans.
IN DETAIL
Celtic studying feasibility of standing area at Celtic Park
henryclarkson says:
10 November, 2011 at 16:10
Story was emailed to me from someone in the Netherlands.
I will do a search.
LB
I have one general question to ask, something that needs cleared up.
If Rangers go into administration over an unpaid tax bill of £49 million, is it true or false that they will only be able to claim insolvency when their playing assets have been sold? Otherwise, it can be claimed that they still have saleable means with which to pay some of the debt.
True or false?
!!Bada Bing!! says:
10 November, 2011 at 16:12
Too soon,I like them to get into the magic of Christmas,then…..KAPOW!!!
It appears that rumour about the Roda JC player was taken from Celtic rumours.
http://www.celticrumours.co.uk/
Is this site accurate? Don’t ever view it.
Years Team Apps† (Gls)†
2007–2008 AZ 19 (0)
2008– Roda JC 91 (4)
Not a goalscorer anyway.
LB
I also have a question about them going into administration.
It is widely accepted that HMRC will not settle based upon previous cases with Portsmouth etc. However if HMRC are aware that if they don’t settle then Rangers will go into administration/insolvency and they will get nothing, then why would HMRC not settle? Would they not then accept whatever is the maximum they can wrangle out of Scotland’s Shame, 10p on the pound or suchlike?
From Wiki-Ruud Vormer is 23, 4 goals in 110 games for AZ and Roda suggests hes a defensive midfielder,saying that Bangura might be chuffed wi that in a couple of years
cardiffbhoy says:
10 November, 2011 at 15:49
i hope you’re not confusing dd not attending the agms and him needing to raise his game. i’d imagine he can’t be bothered with formalities like the agm. not the way i believe he should behave but to be honest i’m not really that concerned, i could care if he loves me or respects me or not.
i dont think he needs to raise his game. we need to get the appointment of our managers sorted out and look at the recruitment of players and the number of injuries we seem to pick up. everything else is fine detail as far as i’m concerned and not something he should be bothering about.
didnt last long, this agreeing lark did it
rnie lynch says:
10 November, 2011 at 15:40
If the huns get papped out of the SPL, how are the numbers brought back up to 12.
Does the bottom club not get relegated at the end of the season?
—————————————
One would imagine no relegation and a space in the bottom league left to be filled by the new version of Hades 11 FC
I hope the ‘New Firm’ and Hibs are seeing the potential for themselves in this. 3 years of being almost realistic challengers in the league, more bums on seats, UEFA cup football, more chance of winning a cup or two and building themselves up financially.
If Hibs, like ourselves, could get their management right they are well positioned to take advantage of this situation. A top two of Celtic and Hibs would also have a nice look to it.
As a teenager in the 80’s I recall well and thoroughly enjoyed the rivalry between ourselves, the Sheep and the Arabs. Rangers were an inconvenient truth that had to be dealt with now and then but I games against Aberdeen and Dundee United were things to be relished and looked forward to. For the sake of competition and the Scottish game I would love it to be so again.
Hopefully they will all see past the paltry TV cash and see the potential of reinvigorating attendances, merchandising and so on. And again, they perhaps need to look to Germany, although they have good TV revenue, have managed to revitalise their game with a focus on supporters and an aversion to debt and other forms of cheating.
Rangers difficulty is everyone elses opportunity.
LiviBhoy says:
10 November, 2011 at 16:24
It appears that rumour about the Roda JC player was taken from Celtic rumours.
http://www.celticrumours.co.uk/
Is this site accurate? Don’t ever view it.
Years Team Apps† (Gls)†
2007–2008 AZ 19 (0)
2008– Roda JC 91 (4)
Not a goalscorer anyway.
LB
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
2010 Never Again
Might be something in it though. I think Ki and Brown might be for the off.
BarryBhoy says:
10 November, 2011 at 16:25
HMRC are wary of setting a pecedent that encourages people to dodge paying tax. For example I run my own business, I decide to take a five year break from paying tax, when HMRC come calling I offer to negotiate at around 20p in the pound.. No chance !!! If HMRC are seen to encourage this then they will open the flood gates for everyone to stop paying what they are due and just negotiate.
BarryBhoy says:
10 November, 2011 at 16:25
I also have a question about them going into administration.
It is widely accepted that HMRC will not settle based upon previous cases with Portsmouth etc. However if HMRC are aware that if they don’t settle then Rangers will go into administration/insolvency and they will get nothing, then why would HMRC not settle? Would they not then accept whatever is the maximum they can wrangle out of Scotland’s Shame, 10p on the pound or suchlike?
share
…………………
If HMRC push Rangers into insolvency EVERY asset is for sale. The Players, Ibrox (including all its fixtures and fittings), Murray Park (if they actually own it), sundrie items such as Trophies that are not on loan (anybody wanna buy a bike?), tables, washing machines etc etc and even the name. They and every other creditor would probably get nearly every penny back they are owed!
BarryBhoy says:
10 November, 2011 at 16:25
And the incentive for any business to pay their taxes thereafter would be?
So where does this leave Phil s credibility and what was his agenda to run such a story that has been rubbished so quickly from official sources?
the green manalishi
is the huns problems more complex than murderwell becos although the guys who supplies the brox bear burgers might be willing to accept 10% – i think you are saying the tax man wouldnt
what would the tax man do next, would he sell the park, sell the players,
even if he did he might not get his full payment anyway, but will he do this
is it in the interests of the admin guy/ tax man for rangers to fold?
2010 Never Again
I wonder why no one has ever formally questioned the professional integrity of the valuer who done the valuation of Ibrox which was commissioned by Murray?
barry bhoy and ernie
all this is okay on the assumption that the business has cash/assets to pay the taxman
1) if all rangers assets were sold would CW be secured creditor before the tax man
2)what if the assets are less than the amount owed to the taxman
3) is it only the taxman who can force you to sell everything or can the broxy bear burger man also have the same powers
The huns problem IS much more complex than murderwell. In their case the main creditor was John Boyle (owed about £10m Ithink) He wrote this off, this allowed the other creditors around 20p in the £ which they accepted. As an aside they owed HMRC about £400k which a court ruled had to be paid in full.
HH
greenjedi says:
10 November, 2011 at 16:30
A few yrs back Minty sold the rights to Murky Park youngsters to a third party ,do you think he could see the sale of all players down the line and did this deal to allow them to field the Murky park youngsters in the upcoming situation ,or am I being too kind to his forward thinking
hail hail
If my memory serves, Hibs’ biggest home gates in recent years coincided with Alex Mc. Leish leading them to the first division title.
This is a remarkable statistic, as, it was done, obviously, with gates from us and them.
What this proves is that supporters really want competitive games, where their team has a chance of being successful.
Remove them from the equation for a few seasons and clubs like Aberdeen, Hibs, DUTD, plus any other ambitious outfit, will see an opportunity to grab some glory.
The upturn in support from their own fans would compensate for the loss of revenue from them.
Channel 4’s new reality cookery show for huns:-
Scum Dine With Me. (N.90)
How much is Ibrox worth?
Who would buy it?
What would they use it for?
I noticed with interest that Hampden was mentioned as a potential venue for Rangers to see out the season. If this is the case who would buy Ibrox?
It’s almost D-Day. There are going to be quite a few interested parties in a massive piece of land in Glasgow that is for sale at a low price.
LB
is murky parky owned by RFC or some other murray company
such as MMDHL (murky murray deals holding ltd)
I’m Neil Lennon (tamrabam) says:
10 November, 2011 at 16:36
1. Yes
2. HMRC move to have the business liquidated.
3. Any creditor can ask for a winding up order.
http://thefrontofthebus.blogspot.com/2011/11/that-strange-airdrie-game.html
LIVI BHOY
Im sure i read somewhere that ibrox is worth more as fire wood !!
i recal back in the day, when it was allegedly valued at 70 or 80 million- probably worth about 15 quid in reality
Estadio, did you hear the one about the guy that drove 452miles from Portsmouth and popped into Sharkeys for a pint with you?
You wern’t in big pal :-)
Imatim and so is Neil Lennon says:
10 November, 2011 at 16:36
2010 Never Again
‘I wonder why no one has ever formally questioned the professional integrity of the valuer who done the valuation of Ibrox which was commissioned by Murray’
All in good time.
paulie671 says:
10 November, 2011 at 16:43
http://thefrontofthebus.blogspot.com/2011/11/that-strange-airdrie-game.html
I was at that game. The boozer just before the waste ground to the away end was wrecked by the Airdrie mob. I was only 14 or 15. Scary times. Big Tony had a blinder and if he hadn’t blootered that polis wummin he might have turned a corner.
He never recovered and apparently neither did she and had to retire.
Incidently pulled Celtic 9 in the sweep that day and took another shot and got the same. Almost threw them away and big Tony smashed a hat trick in. Cider was on me that night.
LB
I’m Neil Lennon (tamrabam) says:
10 November, 2011 at 16:41
Murray park is included in the huns’ balance sheet.
I’m Neil Lennon (tamrabam) 10 November, 2011 at 16:36
all this is okay on the assumption that the business has cash/assets to pay the taxman
1) if all rangers assets were sold would CW be secured creditor before the tax man
Depends on the security of the loan. The Close brothers get all their money forst as they hold fixed security. AFter they have been paid, Wavetower get all their floating charge money back. After that the non secured preferential creditors divvy up the rest so they get the same percentage of what they are owed. If they all get paid everything then the shareholders get the rest of their money back (not going to happen).
2)what if the assets are less than the amount owed to the taxman
If after the secured and preferential creditors have been paid in full, the rest of the assets will be liquidated to realise the maximum value for the rest of the creditors of which HMRC are one.
3) is it only the taxman who can force you to sell everything or can the broxy bear burger man also have the same powers
It’s the administrator’s duty to realise the maximum return for all of the creditors. It doesn’t matter if it’s the plumber or HMRC, the maximum value of the assets has to be realised so they get as much as possible.
In prepack that Paul has talked about, the administrator says that selling the company as a whole will give a bigger return for all of the creditors than liquidating all of the assets and selling them seperately
I was interested in this wee bit from the Neil Doncaster post someone posted earlier By Imatim.
“Top flight stadiums in Scotland have been all-seated since 1994. To enforce a change in the rules, eight of the SPL’s 12 member clubs would have to vote in favour of any plans.”
Do STV have their voting figures correct?
8 from 12 would make it one-helluva-lot easier to re-instate any Phoenix Hun club from the ashes of embarrassment.
MWD
If you subscribed to Fergus’s initial flotation then you had to purchase one preference share for each ordinary share. Both kinds of shares were £60 (sixty pounds) and the minimum purchase was 5 of each. DD put £4 million into the first share issue of which half would be in the form of Preference shares. The shares were later split if memory serves at 100 to one to make them tradeable. Subsequent share issues also contained a mix of ordinary and preference shares. To my mind Preference shares represent a loan to the club (with the benefit to the club that the capital need never be repaid in cash). Accountancy rules changed some years ago requiring the “dividend” on preference shares to be categorised as interest!
Livibhoy
Forget selling Ibrox as a Football stadium. Tghink about the worth of its fixtures and fittings (and include a premium for hun memrobillia).
Seats – Say a tenner x 48,000
Dugouts – £20k for both
Goal posts – £20k again
Floodlights
Fixtures and fittings
Then we get to the trophy room, take away the SPL & LC trophies and everything would be worth a fortune to football collectors. I’d guess start a £40k for the most obsure working you way up to serious money for the famous ones. Al the league flags, that bicycle, portraits, the boardroom table etc etc.
Then throw in the value of the land.
Scap metal value
Paddy Gallagher.
His teas oot. He’ll be back laters.
MWD
Good evening friends.
Life’s good!
jobo
MWD @ 16:53
Different SPL votes have different thresholds: 90% and 83% are two others – but I couldn’t make sense of the rules as related to any New co vote.