Neil Doncaster has uttered the words “Prima Facie” more often than any other figure in public life since February when Celtic Quick News first asked if Rangers EBT payments were declared to the football authorities, almost always after the words “we don’t know if there is a”. While we are all assuming the SPL have now established Rangers have a case to answer for illegally registering footballers for over a decade, it’s important to hear the words.
Rangers refused to submit information to the SPL for three months and only did so under the duress of a deadline, but we don’t know what they have submitted. I have been concerned that Rangers would simply try to brass the entire episode out, submit the contracts the SFA and SPL already had, and deny having any record of side agreements.
Consider the clubs modus operandi in recent months and years. Sir David Murray provided cover in March, categorically denying side contracts existed, while the current men in charge have been too busy to spare much time researching the issue. A response of “We don’t have any information” would not have surprised me. Rangers submitting full information – including details on the side letters which exist but which the BBC do not have – would surprise me.
The SPL should have realised months ago they would get nothing from Rangers without a deadline but they are in awkward position if the answer from the club is not what is expected. It’s far from clear that they can take evidence from the BBC and may require information from the First Tier Tribunal verdict to substantiate what everyone knows. The verdict is unlikely to confirm any names.
Until Mr Doncaster says “Prima Facie evidence exists” we should not assume this episode is on track to be dealt with.
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no, I’M Neil Lennon “i’ll never walk alone” (fourstonecoppi ) on 2 June, 2012 at 10:56:
“i think all this talk about cutting a deal is all premeditated and one of many reasons why they took the sfa to court.”
A massive mistake then.
On a completely different note.
I went to the Celtic on line store to purchase some goods for my brand new Grandson, bhoy was I disappointed.
Apart form a couple of dummies (not Duff and Phelps) and pink baby grows, there was zilch for a new born wee bhoy !
The allocated monies will now be spent in some multi national, bland, “Baby Store”.
Laird of smiles 09.44 :))))
What to do about billy hmmmmmmmmmm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHTc5n8aY-g
HAIL HAIL
ItaliaBhoy on 2 June, 2012 at 10:05 said:
========================================
People would do well to scroll back up to Italiabhoys comments at 10.05.
I think you sum it up very well indeed Italia. Ain’t no way out for them now.
The DR article says much about what Green would like to do and of course they throw Ally McCoists name in to it in some desperate bid to give it authority or make it palatable to them ‘uns. BUT it is seriously lacking in any mention of the SFA, SFA rules or exactly how this fantasy might become fact.
As I keep having to remind myself – deal in FACTS in this story.
And the facts don’t make good reading if you are a FollowFollower:
BigTaxCase
£50 Mill on top of big tax case
Craig Whyte/ floating charges/ stadium
Ticketus
EBTs/ Side letters
FIFA involvement
Looming suspension
I could go on, but any combination of just two of those facts would kill any club. When you are facing them all then you truly are rubber ducked……
Bye Bye Ragers.
Did Barcabhoy come out with any more revelations? Last I heard was about Souness and mopre than 30k?
Madra – get him a MadraRua sized new away top with ‘Granda’ written on the back. He’ll love it………..
Talk of a 6 month transfer embargo has to be a load of blx.
If the 12 month embargo has to be overturned because it doesn’t figure in the rule book, then unless someone can show me where a 6 month ban DOES appear then it would be just as far outside the jurisdiction of the panel,
A suspension doesn’t work for 6 months.
RobertTressell
You could add players walking away for nothing to your list.
If the court said the sfa didn’t have the option to ban transfers for a year.
Why would they be able to ban them for 6 months?
stupid stupid huns.
RobertTressell on 2 June, 2012 at 11:03 said:
Must check to see if they have new born size.
fergus slayed the blues on 2 June, 2012 at 10:57 said,
I would sincerely hope that the SFA has offered no deal – or indeed even discussed the possible sanctions with Rangers’ owners. Let alone someone who might one day own them!
The Independent Panel system was set up to stop exactly this type of discussion. It will be up to Lord Carloway and the other two members to decide which punishment replaces the transfer ban.
There should also be a separate change of breaking SFA rules by going to court. This should be dealt with by a different Panel.
Looks like they only have infant size. They are losing out on a big market here !
Dunnes Stores are currently selling Ireland (unofficial) baby grows for the up coming Euro Championships.
I thought our marketing department would be better orgainised.
no name but verbatim:
Here we go, expecting some interesting replies on this one.
We have had penalties applied by HMRC for non payment of NI and PAYE.
We have been fined and had a transfer embargo (or not) for bringing the game into disrepute, because we did not pay NI and PAYE.
We went into administration because we didn’t pay
NI and PAYE, whether didn’t, or couldn’t, or CW chose not to.
We were docked 10 points which effectively ended our season.
We are barred from Europe for at least a year, potentially costing the club millions because we went into administration, because we didn’t pay NI or PAYE.
And yet there are people who keep saying we deserve to be punished for not paying NI and PAYE, I am sorry how many tines do we need to be punished for one offence?
We got or are getting fined by HMRC for EBTs.
We sre going to get punished by SPL for EBTs
We are going to get punished by SFA for EBTs.
How many times do we need to be punished for one thing ?
When did SFA and SPL become enforcers for HMRC?
What business is it of SFA and SPL whether we pay our bills, that is the problem of HMRC. They are the ones that deal with monies due to them. If I don’t pay NI and PAYE for my employees, HMRC will come after me, they don’t go to my trade association for them to get involved.
We are always told by HMRC that we must be treated like any other business, well we are not being treated like any other business.
Now before the replies start saying we owe other clubs money the rule in England is that football creditors get paid first, in Scotland that is not the case. Football creditors are treated the same as any other creditor, so we couldn’t have paid them without paying everybody and we can’t do that if we could we wouldn’t be in administration.
However I honestly believe that those Scottish clubs affected should take a good look at the amount of money they have made off Rangers & Celtic, but as we are in the spotlight, I will use Rangers as the example. For years we have been overcharged for players that we sign from them. Because the Scottish teams don’t want players playing against them that might come back and bite them the fees are inflated. But my biggest gripe is that we pay, as fans, £7-£10 dearer per ticket than the average club. We may take 5000 fans to the smaller grounds, well that is £35k to £50k more than a similar small clubs fans pay. And of course we take 5000 fans and the other small clubs may take 500 fans at a push.so the amount we contribute to other clubs is massive.
These clubs seem to think that because of EBTs that we were paying for players that we could not afford. That may be true but what they forget is the 2000 extra bums on seats that the received to see these players.
In business companies are run differently that’s why some are successful some not, some companies have no fears of borrowing huge amounts of money and live on the edge, some businesses are run with little or no borrowing . There is no right or wrong way, there are numerous companies that are successful by both methods.
If Rangers owner chose the way he did, and the bank were happy to back them then we could afford them, or could at least pay for them. As it happens Murray chose his way and that has backfired big time. It happens up and down the country evety day of the week. Is it nice for creditors, of course not.
So what now ?
1. The CVA should be accepted
2. We should agree with SFA that we can only sign free transfers until clubs paid back that we owe.
3 we should let the SFA save face and accept a Scottish Cup ban, gets SFA off the hook and UEFA off our backs.
4. There should be a closure of this, a finishing, closure. The slate should be wiped clean, no more , an amnesty.
5. We will apologise for all the misdemeanours of our previous owners and promise we won’t do it again.
6. We should move on for the good of Rangers and Scottish football.
Do I believe this?
No, but I just want to take my grandson to his first game, the way I did with my son, and the way my grandfather and father did with me.
Next to family, good friends and my business, they are the most important thing in my life.
I am actually mortified by what has happened, I find it abhor ant, I detest the thought of my club not doing things the right way, I am disgusted by the owners, Murray & Whyte. They should remember the people that lost their lifes supporting this club. They should be keeping each other company in the Bar-l.
I want my club back!
http://celticsuperstore.co.uk/stores/celtic/products/product_browse.aspx?cid=11507&nav=Nightwear&Baby
Seem to recall that the transfer ban served by Bournemouth was imposed by the League rather than the Association. This was fallout from their insolvency event in 2008. Wonder if the SPL would be a more competent (in the legal sense of the word) body to impose such a ban.
I seem to remember Bill “windy Miller, yeah him, was cutting all sorts of deals with the SFA and SPL, wonder how that went for him, oh yeah he didn’t even order a passport…
So now Greeeeeeen is cutting all sorts of deal with the SFA and SPL, anyone see a pattern emerging here??
Daily Record hahaha
Keith Jackson hahahaha
Govan Dodgers hahahaha
Don’t want to rain on yer parades but yous are serially and royally franced..
What if CG wanted suspended for 1yr .
He pulls the plug (blames SFA ) gets Ibrokes and Murky park for a knockdown 5.5m , holds on to them for a season with no team to fund that gives the Knuckle Draggers ,TBKs and all the Legneds time to do a round the WORLD sponsored walk to buy the bigotdome and brain washing academy back for the
Foolow/Foolow diehards .
With a wee profit for his troubles .
HH
Good Morning CQN from Clayton Park in fife
Just been reading through all posts from yesterday
Some great stuff
Sent E-Mail confirming CQN badges this morning
Fantastic work carried out by you guys look forward
To meeting up to collect badges
All CQN family have a great day
Keep the Faith
Gordon_J backing Neil Lennon on 2 June, 2012 at 11:12 said:
The SFA cannot do a deal, they have been told by CoS to apply the sanctions under their rules.
Rangers now trying to get the SFA to ignore the ruling the CoS gave them in their favour?
You could not make this up.
hen1rik on 2 June, 2012 at 09:11 said:
>>>
Hunbelievable…..even here in Ingerland that would not be tolerated. Yes,there is funding for some beanfeasts but not for an avowed bigoted ‘organisation’. I,for one,am avoiding all these jingoistic,propagandist so-called ‘celebrations’. Dumbed-down,brainwashing nonsense…all of it.
Auld Neil Lennon heid,
So the Independent Appeal Panel meets again. If we assume that Lord Carloway agrees to abide by Lord Glennie’s ruling, they have to replace the sanction of a transfer ban with one of those specified.
They could go with a fine only – but reducing the overall sanction sends the wrong message.
They could expel them from football – but the Appeal Panel has already agreed with the initial Panel’s view that this would be too severe.
They could suspend them from the Scottish Cup – the same sentence that clubs have received for minor admin errors or playing an ineligible players. So that seems much too lenient.
That only leaves a period of suspension from the game.
Craig Whyte negotiating a deal with HMRC
Paul Murray negotiating a deal with HMRC
Charles Green negotiating a deal with HMRC
Charles Green will meet Peter Lawwell
Charles Green negotiating a deal with the SFA
A consistent theme and they have been consistently wrong, but at least they are, erm … consistent.
Take last season … They had a whole 2 games in the Scottish Cup and signed no one( in the January window ( I don’t think) So what sort of half assed punishment would a Scottish Cup ban and six month transfer embargo be anyway… A Sion-like -36 point penalty would be a good start.
They would find it hard to win the third division then wouldn’t they!
new article posted.
It’s mad how this Rankers(ia) fiasco invades yer life….we’ve been watching the 3 series of ‘Deadwood’ (Ian McShane & Powers Boothe hamming it up in award-winning style) and all the machinations,double-dealing & backstabbing keep reminding me of the antics of the knuckledraggers.HH!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2Q7YRDL90E&feature=youtube_gdata_player
leftclicktic on 2 June, 2012 at 11:00 said:
Laird of smiles 09.44 :))))
What to do about billy hmmmmmmmmmm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHTc5n8aY-g
HAIL HAIL
———————————————————————————
Couldn’t get it to work ;-( might be because I’m in Germany – quite common with a lot of YouTube stuff posted on here!
Ghuys,
Missed the news for a few days, what are D£D playing at?
Courts appear to be saying there is no flexibility when interpretating the rules , SFA panel appear to have operated reasonably within the ranges of the punishments available to them.
If you take the Courts judgement literally then the SFA would be required to detail every possible outcome and combinations of options that could be handed own to errant clubs.
UEFA entirely correct . as this takes football laws down a track where “tariffs” are set for “specific” crimes. If the SFA wish to have more flexibility written into the rules to allow the circumstances of each case to be considered on its merits then as long as the process conforms / provides natural justice …. It should be good enough for the member clubs.
Next step, the SFA judicial panel meet to review the Shame taking the SFA to court and as this is a step too far, given the previous punishment , further sanctions will be required.
I believe that if the Shame were under a permanent mgt team then there would be expulsion from the league, however some slack will be cut which will require the following options to be considered:
– 5 to 10 year ban from the Scottish Cup
– original transfer embargo extended to 2 years
– suspension of membership which will only be enacted if the Shame take the SFA to court in the next 2 years (same timeline as the transfer embargo)
There will be no backing down on this one. Is Keith Jackson not the worst reporter / purveyor of utter tosh currently working in football, and you have to be extra special to reach these dizzy heights.
Moneystootighttomentioncfc
If the panel look again at the punishments available to them and decide that suspension is the only way to go, do they have the remit to suspend the suspension or would that be venturing outside the rules again?
If they do suspend the suspension, would that not be seen as too light a punishment? In fact, surely it would be no punishment at all unless a further charge of taking the SFA to court precipitates the previously suspended suspension.
beginthebeginCSC
fergus slayed the blues on 2 June, 2012 at 10:52 said:
That, for me, is the big question …….. they thought the transfer ban would be lifted…….that’s the gamble they took?…..they didn’t realise the SFA would put it back to the panel, and they are now feverishly trying to backtrack …. Too late, amateur schemers, your stupid action has now brought FIFA to the forefront ……
What they could is suspend the suspension of the suspension, then suspend the suspender of the suspended suspension until the euro suspension is suspended in favour of a new pair of suspenders for sally……… What they cannot do is suspend the inevitable demise of the orcs …. It’s coming to them ..!!!!!
I just want them to die! Is this too much to ask for?