Today we have a guest writer, Archie Macpherson, Scotland’s most celebrated broadcaster. Archie started broadcasting for the BBC in the 1960s and was the authoritative voice of football commentaries, and comment, for decades thereafter. He was co-commentator for our first European Cup win and remains a regular newspaper columnist and TV contributor.
I had a brief conversation with Archie last month when he categorically stated that Jock Stein was best manager Scotland has ever produced was. Pleased, though I was, to hear this, in the light of accolades earned by Sir Alex Ferguson, I asked him if he could substantiate his claim.
These questions are enormously subjective but few have the breadth of perspective, not to mention the analytical capacity, to tackle this one properly. This is the article he offered to write for us on the subject:
Jock and Fergie, by Archie Macpherson
If there had been no Jock Stein there would have been no Sir Alex Ferguson. It may sound a contentious statement to make but even though it is tempting to play around with history according to your own beliefs and perceptions I would stand by that as a sound interpretation of the way the respective merits of these men can be set against each other.
It helps in this matter if you can lay aside the achievements of those men from the record books and instead consider their personalities and the context in which they plied their trade.
When Jock came to Celtic as manager in 9th March 1965, he fully understood from his past experience there as a player and coach that he would find a club desperate to achieve a commanding status in Scottish football. The frustration they felt only reflected that which their massive support similarly endured around that period. They were massive underachievers.
He also knew from his own background that his task would not simply be about selecting a team, then motivating them, but about radically overhauling the perception the public in general had about the club and which stemmed mainly from the constructs of the media.
It may be difficult for a current generation to fully comprehend this but Celtic then were simply perceived as bit players in a drama where the lead actor came from Govan and always took the curtain-calls. Stein changed all that. He took on the press-pack like he had been sent in from the city’s sanitation department to fumigate.
If you didn’t turn up on the dot for his press conferences then the door was slammed on your face no matter the size of your ego. His television interviews, unlike the passive posture of that likeable man his predecessor Jimmy McGrory, were often truculent and challenging. All of this concentrated the mind of those who wrote and spoke about Celtic. They would think twice about saying anything that might offend the big man. He was strengthening Celtic’s image and, as a by-product of that, securing the self-esteem within the playing staff which previously had been sadly lacking.
And where was Sir Alec at this time? He was watching, observing. I saw him sitting in the lounge of Malpensa Airport Milan in 1970, in the aftermath of the European Cup Final there, amidst thousands of Celtic supporters, which given his Rangers connections only indicated his deep interest in what Jock was doing.
Fergie to his credit was a learner. When he went to Old Trafford it was not to a club about which there was lack of public respect. It was initial lack of respect for himself which made him take up arms against his detractors. To go to a Fergie press-conference was to see a recreation of Jock at the height of his powers. And from being beside Jock in the dressing-room, and on the bench at Scotland games, he absorbed Jock’s handling of men which could range from wrath to wit. The so-called ‘hairdryer’ treatment Fergie handed out only simulated what Jock could do to make the walls of a dressing-room bulge when it got up his hump.
Where they differed enormously as men was that Jock did not harbour grudges in quite the same way as Fergie. Jock did have his difficulties with the BBC initially but never refused to deal with them. Fergie barred them for over a decade, then got an award from the same people. So I am suggesting that although you cannot compare the achievements made in entirely different footballing environments, Fergie served his apprenticeship in the Stein era by consequently adopting much of the big man’s methodology. Jock was the ice-breaker. Fergie was the follow up.
In that sense, as the one was indispensable to the success of the other, I rate Jock as the master of the two.
My thanks to Archie for his contribution.
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Celtic’s European Cup winning team from 1967 did play again. They played against:
Dundee Utd on August 12th 1967
Rangers on 16 August 1967 and
Aberdeen on 19 August 1967
All games were League Cup ties
FJIW Freudian slip surely awful = offal Hail Hail Hebcelt
Philbhoy
You need to calm down pal, you want to join the debate by all means wire in, but don’t be calling people clowns, it’s not nice and it’s the actions of a key board bully, and they don’t scare me, and neither do you, you don’t like my posts, I suggest you scroll past I won’t mind, and your telling me to behave? Calling me a clown? Aye right.
Bearsden Bob
Thanks for that mate.
I was at the hun game on August 12, 1967 at Ibrox I believe and remember hearing a newspaper seller (The Green Citizen) shouting –
“Local team beats European Champions”
His name was Jackie and he was a legend.
We lost 0-1.
Bearsden bob
Prove it.
monaghan1900
14:00 on 10 January, 2014
Bob LobLaw
13:56 on
10 January, 2014
I think Ronnie Simpson just came out for the warm up that day having had recurrent trouble with a shoulder injury. John Fallon played if I remember. 6-0 – Remember Bertie sitting on the ball?
Thank you. You’re memory is obviously better than mine. I remember the game and it was much later before I became aware of its significance, and felt honoured to have been part of that little bit of our club’s history. Cheers
tonyd
Why would I want to scare you?
It’s posters like you that get football blogs a bad name.
tonydonnelly67
In the grand scheme of things, you may be right, others may be right, it’s not a major debating point, just some Celtic fans sharing their memories. Chill and enjoy.
To all
They never played together again,. As I said it’s even in Archie Macphersons book, so his book is wrong, and you are all right? Aye right, posting games and dates is not proof, sorry.
Archie came across as a reasonably fair commentator but he showed his true colours in various TV debates on the liquidation of the hun. He was hurting very badly.
Archie MacPherson, just before and after Davie Provan’s free kick in the 1985 cup final. Brilliant!!!!
Bob loblaw
Am chillin mate, lol, some others calling me a clown are the ones losing it not me, it’s just that I answer people when they go at the name calling lark, I done get bullied.
tonyd
You would take the side of a hun who wrote a book against your fellow Celtic supporters.
Says it all for me.
HAIL HAIL THE CELTS ARE HERE………….
tonydonnelly – this is from the oficial UEFA website.
http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/season=1967/matches/round=951/match=62270/postmatch/lineups/index.html
Tonydonnelly67 My information comes from The Celtic Football Companion by David Docherty (Foreword by Jack McGinn, then Celtic Chairman).
Incidentally it also states that the same team played in the home game against Dynamo Kiev on Sept 20th. In the away leg on October 4th the team had one change, Hughes for Chalmers.
Bob LobLaw
14:09 on
10 January, 2014
My memory’s not as good as I thought. Score was 6-1 and Evan Williams was in goal.
Lisbon Lions played together against Motherwell in February 1968 with Chalmers replacing Hughes in the second half.
Philbhoy – Free the Dam 5! @ 14.08 hrs,
The green citizen and the pink times.
I had forgotten about those. More evolution I suppose.
HH.
tonydonnelly67
I done get bullied.
Da na na na na
Are you singing the blues…..:)
Bob loblaw
And Marakesh express is a long life friend of me and my family, so don’t read to much that are not there, don’t judge to quick, am on ok guy, it’s just that when name calling starts, I give it back, I don’t like bullies.
C’mon you Celtic supporters!!
Sort the dumpling out!
Woooohoooo!
TonyD looks like it’s your call Hail Hail Hebcelt
Phyllis
It not the same team , its got a Robert Auld playing instead of Bertie.
It is not important which team,if any, that Archie McPherson supports or which team he used to support. It is clear that he has,and always has had, enormous respect for Jock Stein and was enormously proud that a manager and a team from his country achieved what they achieved in 1967.
He was actually with Kenneth Wolstenholme in Lisbon and would have done the commentry if it had gone to a replay. Clearly he was delighted with the result but, I suspect, would have loved a replay if he could have been guaranteed a 4-0 win for Celtic. Good on him. His book on Jock Stein is great, as others have said. It is abundantly clear from the book that he knew Jock Stein better than possibly any football journalist of the time (along with Hugh McIlvanney).
Some complete clown used to post on here under the name “Arthur was better than Archie”. I’m glad that eejit is not around any more. He certainly won’t be posting today. Probably a hunposter with a garish blazer fetish.
I could has sworn it was John Fallon too….age does strange thing to the memory.
On a related note I got a lift from John Fallon once. He was running the St Blains ( I think ) school team in Motherwell or Blantyre and my school St Hillary’s in EK played them. When he offered some of us a lift after the game, I nearly killed a few of my mates shoving them out of the way to get in his car…..that would be around 1973/74
All of you
Can post what you like, Archie Macphearson and I, say they never played again, I posted the Kiev team 3 weeks ago, and yogi played in both games, charmers was injured, Murdoch got sent off the second game.
tonydonnelly67
14:16 on 10 January, 2014
Bob loblaw
And Marakesh express is a long life friend of me and my family, so don’t read to much that are not there, don’t judge to quick, am on ok guy, it’s just that when name calling starts, I give it back, I don’t like bullies.
Good enough for me…take care
Greenpinata
They were famous for their mis types ie Dalglish beats the centre half and shits strongly over the bar!
Great fun!
Bob LobLaw
14:19 on
10 January, 2014
We moved to EK at that very time. Sister went to St. Hillary’s. I went into 4th year at St. Bride’s.
Great article by Archie, another wee thing about it, I think Alex Ferguson would agree.
Last year at one of the Lion Roar Againevents in the Kerrydale.
Everyone crowded around the Lions, at least the well known faces.
I sat down with Charlie Gallagher and had a blether with him, great Fhella.
My Dad always told me he was the mhan who got us there, he meant two crosses that made us, for the winning goal in the SC final in 65, and the Dukla Prage game.
There was a sparkle in Charlie’s eye when I told him that.
Then I wandered over to Archie, a nicer man you won’t meet.
One of my first memories was meeting Archie along with Jock Stein and the Big Cup.
Around 1972 they did a tour, Miners Welfares, schools etc.
They showed The Celtic Story and chatted about Lisbon, I was 5, wide eyed as could be.
Anyway, I told Archie the story, I always wondered if it was one of those made up things, an amalgamation of various childhood memories, but no, it’s not, they did that tour, it was real.
I enjoyed meeting Archie, hope to do it again, and Charlie.
It was one of the first things my Dad organised, as far as being an organiser rather than just a supporter, not long before starting the Bannockburn CSC with some mhates.
Memories. Lovely.
TONY DONNELLY
The last time you brought this up,I referred you to the CELTICWIKI page for our first game v Dinamo Kiev as we defended our Big Cup.
You said they were wrong and you were right. As you continue to say when other examples are provided.
Yer a very funny guy,Tony. Even my Mum disnae say she’s right in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
It’s a total waste of time having a discussion with someone who cannot accept an alternative viewpoint,or maintains that they are right.
Me,I’ll do what I suspect most people do when they have had to listen to you in the pub.
“Aye,yer right enough. Sorry. Gotta go!”
Well, Paul 67 seems to be in the know with Archie Macphearson, ask him to get in touch with him, and then we will see who is right or wrong, if Macphearson sais he was wrong, then, and only then will I put my hands up, balls in your court now prove me and Archie wrong.
Regarding the end of season (70/71) game against Clyde, billed as the Lions last appearance. This is one game I remember well as it was my last game as a Celtic ball boy. The score was 6-1 and it was Evan Williams who replaced Ronnie Simpson at the start of play.
another memory from the day is the players walking over planks to get to the pitch as the old enclosure was being pulled apart to be replaced with the new front stand.
Soooooo, Archies always right then.
Gies the lottery numbers fur re morra big man!
Bmcw
I doubt very much if you or I would ever have a conversation in a pub, I am nor worthy, as I said ask Paul 67 to ask Archie boy, .
Bob Loblaw:
Your memory seems to be in tandem with mine. But was it not Williams who took over from Simpson and was there not a lot of work ongoing in the Jungle?
( Clyde – 6-1)?
tonydonnelly67
14:19 on 10 January, 2014
All of you
Can post what you like, Archie Macphearson and I, say they never played again, I posted the Kiev team 3 weeks ago, and yogi played in both games, charmers was injured, Murdoch got sent off the second game……………….
Jim Craig thinks it was him that got sent off in the second game…………..
Regards & Hail Hail
TBM