After Celtic’s reversal in Astana I pinned the decision to allow Kelvin Wilson to leave after the Elfsborg tie as critical. It left us playing an unaccustomed central defensive partnership against Shakhter while generating only £2.5m.
Before Saturday’s game with Dundee United Neil Lennon suggested the player and his agent had been “naughty”, which might explain things.
It is not unknown for players to cite that they are “not in the right frame of mind” to compete for the club which pays their wages while there is an alternative deal on the table. This tactic is a certified banker for the player, who does not need to fail a fitness test, he just needs to look a bit down in the dumps. It is a shocking state of affairs which can cost their employers dearly.
I’m absolutely delighted to see the emergence of some interest in Celtic’s financial position over the last week. The club have long term loan agreements, an overdraft facility, and, at any point in time, cash on deposit. We have preference shares which, as long as the club attains certain financial covenants, will attract a dividend. At any point in time we also money owe trade creditors, utility companies, other football clubs and HMRC, but as you know, for 126 years Celtic have always paid their bills.
Our NET debt position at on 30 June 2012 was £2.77m. Since then we have had an excellent financial and footballing year. In 2005 UK accounting rules changed, re-classifying some equity categories and debt. In their 2006 financial statement, then chairman, Brian Quinn wrote:
“Under FRS 25 the group’s Preference Shares and Convertible Preferred Ordinary Shares, previously defined as equity, were reclassified as a combination of debt and equity; and non-equity dividends were in essence re-classified as interest. As a result, net assets were £3.8m lower, net debt £4.7m higher and interest charges £771,000 higher than would have been reported prior to the implementation of FRS 25.”
This was “hidden” away on page one of the accounts. Further details were published at appropriate places throughout the accounts. A video presentation was also given to shareholders and the media to explain the situation further.
Perhaps the word “transparency” should be used instead of “hidden” by some.
For further reading on FRS 25 see page 5 of this report.
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Geboy
I’m as puzzled as you are on that issue (Silence on SFA).
There are four possibilities.
A) Celtic are resigned to being stuck in a corrupt set up and think nothing can be done about it (the what’s the point school of thought that permeates some of our support’s thinking and so maybe the Board as well) and it will all be forgotten in a year or two and its as you were.
B) They have enough evidence of maladministration to force change behind the scenes and are using it to play elsewhere ie get UEFA onside.
C) As A but are not resigned to living with a corrupt set up and are pushing for change using everything at their disposal including shareholder disatisfaction but its a long game waiting for evidence to become admissable.
D) They are not as squeaky clean in dealings with SFA as we think and omerta suits everybody.
I can understand B not happening but expect C as back up. I could not accept A or D. A because it is self defeating and D because it would undermine the ideal I ( and probably most) think Celtic stands for.
We will have to wait and see how it all pans out.
BAWSMAN
I guarantee never to watch them play us,ever.
I think there are a fair few of us who share that.
If we have to play them,fair enough.
It can happen without my input.
In fact,the only input to Rangers I would ever favour is an anvil when they drown in their latest debt.
Paul67
I am disappointed you haven’t mentioned amortisation yet.
Steins,
I will come only if i get first shot at the dunces hat!
gebhoy
TBB
It helps a lot.
But am I reading correctly the unspoken underlying assumption that we are stuck paying out dividend money, in perpetuity, at a certain level to all those shareholders like DD who chose not to forego their preference share payouts?
And do we have no power to vary and control the amount we pay out or the conventions that trigger them? I have to say that paying out dividends because the trigger of avoiding insolvency has been reached, does seem to be setting a low bar.
Gebhoy.
No offence but you were the one that was shouting that it’s a disgrace that the dividend was paid.
Ask the question before going off yer nut.
ANTIPODEAN RED
From Wikipedia….
Tottenham Hotspur
On 25 May 2007, Bale signed a four-year deal with Tottenham Hotspur with Spurs paying an initial £5 million for Bale, potentially rising to £10 million based on appearances and success.[30] However, Tottenham paid Southampton an early settlement payment of £2 million in 2008 to reduce the final fee to £7 million and allow the Saints the immediate cash that they desperately needed.[citation needed]
For your interest:
https://www.causes.com/actions/1759332-rangers-the-long-firm-fao-all-rangers-supporters?utm_campaign=activity_mailer%2Fcustom_activity_mail&utm_medium=email&utm_source=causes&ctag=ffd69e08c36acf3b1d13e53c27230ec9cb&ctoken=9CQbGx_knU_H4gHUqGv6fq3qv5v5voQT9zCNGfwxrfZW2gIysycI-1fkWuPnb9LnC-W_FwgCuqovF-_8fZ_GSw%3D%3D&uid=122219286
Auldhied,
I cannot believe Celtic would be holding anything back, a lot if info has been in play for nearly 18 months, the statements given out by the club have been very poor so far we have put very little in the public domain, even in meetings with the various supporters groupls the club have intimated very little, next to nothing in fact.
They must have some plan, other than say nowt and see how it pans out?
gebhoy
gebhoy, I’m an engineer mate but even I know that some people invest in company’s to get a divided, it’s how pensions are funded.
If you stop EVERYBODY getting a divvie we would never be able to attract investors if required.
My 3000 shares cert is oan the kitchen wall, it earns me nothing……..except the nice feeling that I was able to step up to the plate when needed.
Does anyone know the answer to this one. Do non Celtic employees pay to get access to the directors box?
Ie do our major shareholders pay for the privelige of attending Celtic park?
Afternoon Timland, hot and hun free in the mountain valley.
Some quality goal celebrations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC8XanuhOss
Weeminger bobby m
so we have the capability to borrow 36 million if required but have only drawn 12 million from that
understood and all clear.
Paul67 @ 14:24
Great to know. Thanks!
Auldheid
Sadly, I think it’s A)
The proverbial will not hit the fan until if, or when Deidco take their unrightful place back in the SPL.
Then all hell will be unleashed in Timdom with mass flouncing, accompanied by the new Celts for Change uprising.
In the meantime enjoy the top table.
BAWSMAN
CANAMALAR would love to hear from you!
Saint Stivs
Seems appropriate that it is Labor Day here in the USA and it’s Shanks birthday.
Would love to have seen the programme you mentioned.
The mining communities produced special men.
HH
Genius >}
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYHAR8Xzsyo
auldheid at 14.54
thats pretty much how i see it
i guess someone will call it board bashing but its a straight forward question that deserves to be asked
i tend to think that option d is most likely, but based on nothing more than a hunch
the other options dont make sense for the club to remain tight lipped
BMCUW
From last thread…
Lost villages and holes in the ground.
Had to google Germinal so thanks for that.
The memorial at Glenbuck is small but all the more powerful for that.
HH
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
He has
Honest mistake,
For mere mortals like me, seeing that the club will be paying out on preference shares because as SFTB states the bar is set that low that in a good year financially (like this one) these shares will attract a dividend really does feel like a kick in the haw maws, especially when thousands of supporters have to scrimp and scrape to make every game, we are not all loaded by the way.
Lets say we did buy Finboggason for £5 million, could that have set the financials back enough so that these preference shares did not attract a dividend (see what i am trying to do here ;-) )?
Battered Bunnet thanks your post explained it a wee bit i think.
HH gebhoy the dunce!
BAWSMAN
Good man….
There are undoubtedly Celtic supporters who disagree with the question being raised.
But we surely all would like to know the answer.
The Honest Mistake@14.53
I have always subscribed to that view that nobody as rich as Dermot expects to make sizeable returns on investments from a football club. I am sure there are better returns elsewhere.
I also do not want a sugar daddy model because it is fleeting and unreliable. However, as he does not need a football club to make money from why cannot he and other preference shareholders be encouraged to take ordinary shares instead as some fans chose to do.
He, and others, have 2 choices:-
Take his due money out even though he does not particularly need it.
Refuse the pay out for the good of the club or raise the bar for what triggers a dividend.
gebhoy 14:56 on 2 September, 2013
“I will come only if i get first shot at the dunces hat!”
Yer on. It’s ruining my hair.
Bawsman,
I didnt know of the difference between preference shares and ordinary shares, the 10 shares i have, have never attracted a divi before and i never want one. TBB post explained better for me……I am just a railwayman so my only experience with shares before was when i saw 5 years worth of bonus become worthless overnight in the noughties.
HH
gebhoy
Back to Basics – Glass Half Full
If you look at the stats, Ozil has some of the best stats in europe for key passes, assists, chances created etc
He is the type of “Bums on seats” player you always hear about on CQN
RALPH WALDO ELLISON
I first read it during the strike,possibly all the more powerful for that.
A painful read,no mistake.
Paul67
Where is the £17mill?
A lot of hot air over nothing.
Tell PL he will need to do better next time.
The window closed, there’s no more draft
To hear the wail of some who’re daft
You’d think the thing had never closed
Tis blowing a gale that’s self-imposed
–
The wind it howls, acts like a fan
Produces air from every man
Who wants to see his player bought
Regardless if the deal was fraught
–
I know what’s best for my team
The first eleven from my dream
No one seemed to want to buy
To Gareth Bale, I wave goodbye
gebhoy
14:53 on
2 September, 2013
So preference shares attract fixed dividends, well who owns the preference shares and what is the fixed dividends %, or is it a secret?
So can it be explained in plain English who owns the preference shares what they would be paid and when, I am sorry if it offends the perfect police, but for mere mortals like me it would be good to know.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Perhaps the base line for the debate should be is their anything wrong in dividends being paid?
From that, is too much being paid?
There are investors whose investment has three characterstics
a) emotional
b) affordable with cash the investor was ready to take a hit on
c) the amounts are relatively small as a result of a) and b)
Then there are investors for whom emotion may be a part but for whom business is as likely to be as strong. The characteristics of those are
a) A decision will have been made on whether the sum invested could pay bigger dividends elsewhere. If it could but an investment was made anyway then emotion is playing its part.
b) The sums involved are much bigger which means the cost from investing on an emotional basis can also be bigger than in the first category.
As a small shareholder in the first I have no problem with investors in the second getting some return on their money as long as its not OTT.
I have no idea at what point dividends paid become OTT and if that has ever happened. I pay little attention to the dividend payout.
I pay more attention to where a lot of the money goes which is on player wages and it seems to me dividend payouts would have to be really high to make a case that the sums paid should instead be spent on increasing players wages.
Bournsoup@1503
I think your scenario is 100% on the money.
HH
gebhoy
gebhoy
15:01 on
2 September, 2013
Auldhied,
I cannot believe Celtic would be holding anything back, a lot if info has been in play for nearly 18 months, the statements given out by the club have been very poor so far we have put very little in the public domain, even in meetings with the various supporters groupls the club have intimated very little, next to nothing in fact.
They must have some plan, other than say nowt and see how it pans out?
gebhoy
——————-
Not necessarily.
A future Shakespeare would call it Much Ado About Nothing.
Auldheid
I buy all of that.
Payouts would have to be very high to rival what we can control better via player costs. However, every little helps and every department needs to trim its costs to appropriate levels.
I was very surprised to hear that a Pension Fund had invested in Charlie Green’s Sevco flotation. Given the likelihood of football clubs making money and the lowly position of Sevco, I wondered what made them an attractive investment for low risk minded pension funds.
It just convinced me that there must be rich pickings to be had via the scam at Govan to be worth the risk of associating with dodgy and untrustworthy characters.
SFTB
I have absolutely no idea whatsoever regarding what terms exist to redeem the prefs. If terms exist, they’ll be available via the Investor Relations section on the fishal site.
I expect though that there are no terms for redemption, and that it would take an extraordinary resolution at AGM to agree such a proposal, failing which, prefs will continue to pay a fixed dividend annually.
That McCann guy was so damned short sighted.
I am constantly asked do I miss Celtic playing “The Rankers” and my simple answer is always ‘no’. Please God I will never have to see them polluting Paradise.
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS forza Oscar and Mackenzie
15:09 on
2 September, 2013
———————————————————————————-
I am staggered that Ogilvie, Bryson, Ballantyne, Regan, Doncaster, and before them Bain, Peat Smith and Longmuir, could/can get away with the scale of (lets be VERY generous) incompetence.
Why, when we can see this, is it still ignored/covered up?
Ogilvie has taken payment from a member club, that in itself is a sacking offence.
If Celtic have been complicit in any of the corruption that’s happened i’d be disgusted.
Auldhied,
For the rank and file (like me) the thought of paying out dividends whether having to or not does not sit well.
Especially when the team needs more investment, especially when we contribute more and more each year to make the club a success. Add to that the problems between the club and the support, the offensive behavior bill, all the shit the normal fan goes through, it really would be gutting to see even £10K being taken out.
HH
gebhoy