On the road this week so today’s blog is by author Stephen O’Donnell:
Pick the bones out of that! I didn’t see Legia against St. Patrick’s Athletic in the previous qualifying round, but by all accounts they were fairly unimpressive, even in winning 5 – 0 in Dublin. I was even tempted to have a wee bet on Celtic to win by more than one goal on Wednesday night, and by the time my hastily arranged subscription to Premier Sports had come through things were looking good after Callum McGregor’s early strike.
Sadly, it didn’t last. It’s a measure of how poorly Celtic played on the night that they were lucky to escape from Warsaw with a 4 – 1 defeat because, let’s face it, but for Fraser Forster and some wayward penalty taking, it could have been worse.
As expected, it didn’t take long for the Celtic Newsnow stream to start filling up with tales of anguish and pontification from the mainstream media. From AEK Athens to Maribor, the list of European failures at certain other clubs (including one that is now defunct) is long and distinguished, but nothing gets the SMSM in full gloating mode like a painful Celtic defeat on the Continent.
On Wednesday we were reminded about Artmedia Bratislava, Utrecht, Karagandy etc., I even heard Neuchatel Xamax being mentioned at one point. The key of course is that there is no context and analysis provided when these previous losses are dragged up, Celtic supporters simply have to suffer such painful reminders.
This lack of constructive analysis is a pity because there are comparisons and parallels that can be usefully drawn with previous chastening experiences in Europe. It seems that new Celtic managers are particularly vulnerable to them; Tony Mowbray initially enjoyed a successful preseason, including winning the Wembley Cup, but his first competitive game was a 1 – 0 home defeat to Dynamo Moscow. Neil Lennon had Utrecht and Braga, and of course Gordon Strachan had Artmedia.
It’s what happened in Bratislava that I think has most relevance to Wednesday night – a new manager in post, replacing a club legend, trying to introduce a more cerebral approach, a squad clearly divided amongst those who are still pining for the previous incumbent and those who want to move on and embrace the new manager’s methods… the parallels in fact are numerous and really quite striking. Hopefully this is a sign that Ronny, like WGS before him, will turn this early setback around and grow into the role of Celtic manager.
One of the most important aspects of managerial success is the chemistry between the boss and his players. This lack of a connection in the dressing-room and on the training field is the reason John Collins failed at Hibs; it’s why Mowbray didn’t last out a season at Celtic. If the chemistry isn’t right then the team will lack focus, motivation and game intelligence at crucial times in the season, and these traits were all conspicuous by their absence in both Warsaw and Bratislava.
But chemistry takes time, it didn’t come immediately to either Lennon or Strachan, and Ronny Deila still has the opportunity to get his progressive ideas across and win the respect and admiration of his squad. If that happens then, like Lenny and WGS before him, he will go on to lead Celtic to domestic and European success.
In the meantime, there is the second leg still to come. If the parallels with Artmedia and Karagandy are to be heard in the media again then Legia could yet be in for a tough night next week. The tie is most certainly not over and it will slowly be dawning on the players who let themselves down on Wednesday that there is only one way to make up for what happened.
Pride and defiance have to come to the fore again, and the situation is still retrievable. All the ingredients are there for a potentially famous night at Murrayfield next Wednesday.
Follow Stephen O’Donnell on twitter @stephenodauthor
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IGC
B. Barca
C. The team formerly known as Rangers
good post Stephen, cheers
Some fundamentals amiss the other night…tactics, selection, buy-in and chemistry but the fitness levels looked to be way off also. Tiredness gives rise to the basic errors we saw, Mulgrew a case in point.
Here’s hoping.
A. Juventus, Milan, Arsenal, Ross County, Aberdeen, ICT, Killie, St Johnstone, Motherwell
are you forgetting we went out to Artmedia?? and they were a very poor team
A question that keeps running through my mind is the dressing room together I was surprised to read what Johanson was saying today about the team.Now while I think what he said was correct it would have in my opinion better said in the dressing room.I wonder how Stokes and Griffiths feel seeing the new bhoy playing and they were on the bench how did Izzy feel seeing Mathews playing out of position at left back how did Biton feel sitting on the bench.If the dressing room are not together we have no chance of overturning the first leg defeat.H.H.
PFayr
This guy is going to do his own thing no matter what!! Our players were running abt as if they were in a maze!!!
Awe naw
One thought I had re Deila was his lack of top level playing experience
Whilst Lenny was a rookie manager he had massive experience as a player
WGS as you say , was an experienced manager
I’m worried he might be another Barnes with fanciful ideas …champagne football with lager players doesn’t work
I appreciate your guarded hope,Paul, but I don’t think the current squad are any better that Legia’s. To turn this around not only do we have to play well, they have to be pretty damn bad. If the score was reversed I don’t think we would have any doubt we were already through. Look at our squad and try to imagine where a bit of magic is going to come from, which players can produce something that wee bit special special to turn this around. Frankly it takes bit of imagining. My head says this is done and dusted. But heck, we are Celtic and you can never say never, but if they pull this one out it will indeed be something special
We have been here before.
After the Euro results against Artmedia, Braga, Utrecht, Sion and Karagandy (away). We have been here after league results like Black Sunday, 0:0 to Hibs away, losing the league in Inverness and at the Killie 3:3 game.
Each time we have had the slash & burn reactions. Sack the lot of them. Play the youngsters. Get a Celtic man in. or Get a Foreigner in (dependent on whether the incumbent is seen to be neither of these). These have been accompanied by dire warnings of 10k crowds, Boardroom revolution, and rebellions at the ground.
In all that time, and Black Sunday was 9 years ago, I have never seen a crowd protest at CP. I did see two drunks hollering up at guys in hospitality that they mistook for Board Members, after the Hearts Cup defeat where McManus got sent off, but I don’t think those guys thought they were in an organised protest or even remembered the event the next day.
The Internet, however, has been full of influential bloggers, like James Forrest, with articles repeating the doom forecasts of 10k crowds, Boards being overturned, and new regimes of Supporter run clubs that would guarantee big spends and CL success because we would have our club back from the evil men who were the only things standing between us and our rightful place as the heirs of 67.
Now, I am of an age where I had little academic or practical experience of Cyberculture, and, frankly, I still have limited knowledge of the phenomenon, but I like to think I am a quick learner. What I have learned is that the Internet (and the phone-ins and the letters pages) are safety nets for venting. When people are voicing their opinions, and some of them are put in a most erudite manner, they are behaving like back-bar revolutionaries everywhere except instead of preparing for revolution over a warm pint they are preparing it over a hot keyboard. The net (no pun intended) result is the same. Nothing gets done.
The uproar over the “shock” result which foretells the doom, dissipates with the passage of time and the accumulation of good results elsewhere. Despite Artmedia, WGS won 3 in a row and got two last 16s in the CL. Despite Sion and Utrecht, Neil won leagues and got us to the last 16. Of course, Tony Mowbray did nothing for us but the reaction towards him was less vehement than that faced by the successful WGS.
The revolution will not happen, far less be televised, because we do not share a single unifying focus. Ask me to join a protest about the treatment of fans at football grounds and I’ll be there but it still required the organisation of FAC to mobilise and organise for it.
Ask me to join a protest to make Celtic spend £5m on a forward or £20m on a squad and I will line up in the protest against you. Ask me to join a protest against levels of Boardroom Pay and the frequency with which bonuses are given, regardless of football success or not, then I will join you again. Ask me to join a protest to get a fan or fans on Board and I will be less enthused as to the value of that. And different Celts will have different opinions and different levels of passion about each of these.
When the Save Our Celts and Celts For Change movements sprang up, they were successful because they were focused on a small number of goals, those goals were widely shared amongst the support (but by no means unanimously), and the guys involved were persistent. They still required big hitters to effect the change but they certainly prepared the ground for Fergus (who. ironically, was the instigator of the “pay your own way” approach that some are currently protesting against).
So, if Ronny recovers and gets us into the next Cl round or, even, the Europa League (both daunting tasks, at present), then he will survive to get a chance to change our team over a league campaign. Supporting Celtic is always a trial between July and October, but, it has, more often than not, proved to be a more rewarding position between October and May.
Time will soon tell whether Ronny is a Mowbray or a Barnes or whether he is a Strachan or a Lennon. So far, the poor start does provide echoes of Gordon at Artmedia, but, unless he provides the recovery that Gordon achieved, the resemblance will end there.
Meanwhile the keyboards will remain red hot.
PFayr
I don’t think you can draw those conclusions with such little data ? It was his third competitive game.
He picked a team / system to get a result in Poland. For 15 minutes it worked then fell apart as some malaise spread through the team.
The most reliable part of the team (defence) started to look like they’d only be introduced to themselves and the midfield couldn’t pass water. We lost shape, they took heart and it got worse.
A better centre forward than Pukki could and should have made it 2-1 to us and who knows how the game would have turned out.
Bouncebackability worked for Neil and WGS. If it doesn’t for Ronny then we can start asking more probing questions but at the moment he doesn’t deserve the crap associated with 1 bad day at the office.
It is only natural for folk to try and compare WGS artimeda trauma with Wednesdays nightmare.
In artimeda the players were sloppy and slipshod of attitude. They were however, a much better quality team than the inferior quality that RD has to deal with and proved it later !!
The lost potential CL revenue means the money must be clawed back from somewhere else!!
So it seems as though the keeper FF is off and possibly one or two of our other only decent players could follow.
Of course what do we expect when the focal point of the board is to protect their investment and get a tidy annual return !!!
Celtic are a football club with a brilliant support and rich tradition.
We are not a convenient corporate investment cash cow for a favoured few !!!
If I was Ronny – in a desperate attempt at self preservation I’d ditch Johnny…
If there is a chemistry issue – he has form for being a rogue element..
Is the game on any T V??
Traditionalist
I disagree re shoot on site.
I think it’s imperative we start in a calculated fashion and continue working the ball until we create the right chance before attempting to execute.
If we start out in an all guns blazing fashion 1 or 2 of 2 things can happen
We snatch at chances and shoot onsite – frustration is felt throughout the support and is felt amongst the players, creating an unnecessary panic and causing us to snatch at more chances and create less.
Secondly we get caught with a sucker blow on the counter.
I’m all for Ronnies tactics however we current personnel I don’t think we can cope on the counter
Re. Artmedia game. we had already signed Boruc before the 1st leg, but, WGS decided not to play him, citing “communication issues”, and played Marshall instead. Marshall had a nightmare!
HH
End London rule. YES
Jonny the Tim
I too think this tie is gone but we have to go for it.
I don;t see us getting the score we require. This Polish side are very able.
If we are to give them a game we need to be 2 up at half time at least.
LB
PFayr
Barnes had arguably the most illustrious career of the 3 you mentioned. What about Roy Keane’s managerial record ?
We’re scratching around for answers on the back of some lazy analysis fella.
imho of course.
Livibhoy,
The environs of the stadium is great.
You avoid the basic catering, so do I.
You don’t do the hospitality, neither do I. But I experienced it once there, and was able to compare it about 5 experiences of one of the most “sugar-daddied” clubs in the EPL, and it was the latter that wanted every paying supporter to come back despite apparently not needing the money.
You think the reason for not paying the living wage is possibly because it’s not deserved.
All that matters to you is the football on the pitch, and only the players can be blamed for the loss on Wednesday.
You think the tie is gone.
That’s how I’d summarise your post, please correct me if I’m wrong – on the football side of it, I’d say that Legia are very very weak at the back, and we are well within a shout of 3-0.
Who was that ex Celt Polish player who said we’d win 3 nil on Tuesday and Legia were in a mess?
Latchford
We were worse off than last season
Brown injured ….why not try and get a loan signing in to cover him
Sammi…our best and only CL class forward …gone and not replaced
We signed another goalkeeper…like we need three keepers….FFS replacement …more like
Shambles
Big wavy
Don’t remember Keane managing CFC
I was mentioning CFC managers of recent years …whose managerial careers got off to fairly in auspicious starts
Eyes Wide Open
Calculated fashion had us almost at 0-0 vs Karagandy at half time, at home.
Then on 44mins Commons got sight of goal, from ~30yards – he shot – and scored.
Im not saying no calculated build up – I don’t want us to lump balls up the field to small strikers – what I am saying is *certain* players(not Stokes) should shoot on sight.
Things happen when you shoot – you get deflections, you get corners, spills from the keeper – if we overpass it around we will struggle to score 1 or 2.
Bombard them – they are going to pack the defence so ANY sight of goal MUST be utilised.
HH
***Lunchtime Quiz***
Answers in 10
PFayr. I liked Sammi but have to ask if he has such quality why hasnt a club snapped him up ?H.H.
weeminger
12:27 on 1 August, 2014
FFM – I’m the only conspiracy theorist in the village)
12:12 on
1 August, 2014
I’ve sat in block 142 for 15 seasons now. I can’t recall anybody being arrested in all that time. From the lower section at least.
To hear you speak you’d think that simply entering the ground makes arrest a likely outcome and thousands upon thousands who attend every game without being arrested will attest to that not being the case.
Weeminger,
I’ve never seen anyone arrested in any seated section I’ve been in either. But I know it happens. I don’t understand what you’re saying. Are you saying Celtic supporters aren’t getting arrested to and from the game, or inside the stadium?
To hear you speak, you’d think there isn’t an issue with Police Scotland harrassing Celtic supporters. If you’re saying so out of concern that my words might put even one person off of going to CP then I respect that. But please don’t try to dismiss that concern as scare-mongering. If you don’t know that this is a real issue, then maybe you need to life your head up and stop reading the financial accounts when you’re going to and from CP. At the start of this escalation of events a few years ago, a friend told me about seeing armed rozzers aggressively arresting a Celtic supporter coming out of the Argyle St shop, on a Saturday afternoon. Aye, big rifles and everything, But a lot of shoppers missed it because they were too busy looking inside their shopping bags.
I’d say the team that took on Artmedia was much worse. It had some big names but many were well past their best. Remember it was the same players who collapsed a couple of months earlier, and we were relying on Mo Camera, Beattie and Wallace. I wouldn’t have them in our team today.
We also got humped by Artmedia with 11 men. Had we played 90 with 11 against Legia, we might have had a decent result.
Alright Pfayr
Take Keane out as I didn’t need it to reinforce the point that well, your point, had no basis.
We’re overthinking a transition period. Neil’s gone. Ronny is here. Some will pine and some will grow. Change will be inevitable.
Background careers as experienced players bear no influence in how the manager copes with this.
Looking for a suitable venue to view the game next wed in Anchorage. Any Alaskan based Tims out there in CQN land?
Help!!!
Big wavy
Deila tinkered with a very successful defensive set up …..
Their RW was quite good …he was given a free run tho …Berget didn’t help and AW was exposed
I think Artmedia make it to the last 16 that year in a group with the huns (who also did).
Not 100% sure of that but they certainly beat Porto 3-2 in Porto after being down 2-0.
Not sure if Legia would be in that bracket.
Karagandy were a fairly poor side who nevertheless came to Scotland with a two goal lead.
Celtic needed to win 3-0 to go through without the need for extra time.
3-0 will do us next week too.
If you are a Legia player, after the initial euphoria of the result against a team like Celtic, you start to think…
Okay they are rubbish away from home but in Scotland they have beaten Barcelona, Milan, Manchester United and many others…
You start to worry about missing those penalties – if even one of them had gone in then they would sleep easier as we get nearer to the game at Murrayfield.
These penalty misses will haunt their dreams.
Celtic are still alive in this tie – not dead as we should have been. Alive due to their own errors. They know it.
Celtic will be a very different proposition next week and just like Karagandy the Poles are about to see the real Celtic.
A big crowd, an early goal and one of those very special Celtic atmospheres. Bring it on!
“They found that the average UK chief executive’s salary last year was £215,879, while the average director’s salary for a company of up to £249m turnover, which is all Premier League clubs except United, was £150,876.”
But of course, turnnover is very different from profit, and paying youngsters a respectable living wage of £7.50 per hour for a few hours a week is just not possible.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/apr/18/premier-league-directors-earnings
I really wanted to avoid getting into this, I should have signed off this morning. These issues don’t get debated properly here, it’s nonsense deflection, and I’m sorry to say, pseudo intellectual heid burying. Utterly painful. Albeit, at least there’s an attempt at debate, and not so much of the aggressive board sycophancy that certain characters were bringing here of late in an attempt to confuse and trivialise these issues.
Pfayr
There were failures all over the park. And Ronny was too clever for his own good. I don’t think anybody, he included, would absolve him for the sorry mess we are in.
P67
The most important thing about next Wednesday is that we have to win the game.
Next up is a clean sheet and then an early goal.
The result will develop if the belief is there.
We have given LW a huge hand up in the tie.
However we have enough in our locker to win the game.
Clean sheet — Not very sure.
Early goal — Fired up GRSITB’s should get us part of the way.
Looking forward to the game.
Even if I have to get up at 2.45am on the Thursday to see it.
pfayr,
At least this season we can reminisce on the balance sheet, Celtic Way and the Commonwealth Games.
That’s a great treble.
Big Wavy
May be over thinking …it’s a blog after all
IMO …Wednesdays managerial performance was as inept as I have witnessed
I wasnt a founding member of the Deila fan club …I raised concerns about his record and the record of Scandinavia managers in general
We are not at home on Wednesday, we are playing at a neutral venue. We gave up home advantage for two qualifying rounds. At a close to capacity CP we may have had an outside chance to turn around a 1-4 deficit, in a half empty rugby stadium we won’t.