My attention was drawn to the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations (SCVO) blog yesterday, also covered by Joe O’Rourke on the Association site. SCVO Director of Pubic Affairs, John Downie, writes about the “proposed bill on sectarianism” but seems to get muddled in his role as a director of SCVO and using SCVO resources to speak as a Rangers fan; in this instance blaming Catholic schools for sectarianism. How ironic.
Downie writes:
“We’ve previously seen Rangers fans outraged by Celtic goalie Artur Boric crossing himself during games but less bothered – obviously – by about our own players (like Vladimir Weiss last season) doing the same thing.”
“Our own players”! Is SCVO some closed shop where they talk about Artur Boruc as a “Celtic goalie” and Vladimi Weiss as one of our “own”?
So far, so disturbing, but Downie then uses the article to ride to the rescue with:
“The solution:
Personally, as someone who grew up in the East End of Glasgow and lives in the west of Scotland, I agree with some of what Conservative MSP John Lamont says. In my opinion one key causes of sectarianism is Scotland continuing to have separate denominational and non-denominational schools.”
So, if only we didn’t have Catholic schools, players like Artur Boruc and “our” Vladimir Weiss would be able to cross themselves free of harassment. Bizarrely, Downie’s article is subtitled “treating the symptoms not the causes”. I don’t think he was trying to suggest it’s best to treat the symptoms.
The cause of intolerance is not differences in ethnic, religious or sexuality, it is ignorant bigots. It is ludicrous to suggest tackling intolerance by assimilating people into some mono-culture. It’s downright dangerous to blame a minority for intolerance of, and by, them, a sentiment that will only fan the flames of hatred.
The European Examiner reports that various politicians have called for Mr Downie’s removal but SCVO chief exec, Martin Sime, apparently sees nothing wrong in SCVO running a blog discussing one of “our” Rangers players and the “Celtic goalie”, while simultaneously blaming educationally successful faith schools for sectarianism. SCVO has offered a metaphorical No Surrender to resignation calls.
A brief comment for those who don’t live in Scotland…. Attitudes like this once prevailed but are harder to find these days. We are a modern, progressive, society, for the most part.
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Re big Fraser……..
I was delighted when Neil gave him his 2nd year although would have been happier if we had bought him. His shutout record at Celtic and Norwich is remarkable and he is surely but steadily growing in stature and confidence. Paul Lambert still raves about him; he’s not a bad judge there either.
Will he make a daft mistake or two? Of course he will; show me the goalie who has not. THG made enough in his time and he was magnificent with us at his peak.
If Newcastle locked Celtic into a M£2 fee we have got ourselves another bargain; his sell on value after a few years will be much greater. Stipe Pletikosa seems a long way ago now before Neil got HIS number one.
Onwards and upwards, Fraser.
celticinthesun at 13:41
I will chase Christianity out of schools. Along with scientology, Islam, Thumbsupism and MarvinAndrewism.
What about choice? As far as I know, there is no requirement for you to send your children to any particular school so you are free to choose which one to send them to.
If you don’t agree with what they teach, find another one. No one is forcing anyone to believe in any religion.
Mort
celticinthesun – One in ten it says there. Can we have our refund please?
Under my plan you wouldn’t pay any taxes towards education, so your refund will be 100%. For you see, I’m not some bigot who wants to force my own religion or lack thereof on others under pain of imprisonment if they fail to pay their taxes.
BTW there’s a reason why parents are practically fighting to get their kids into Catholic and Church of England schools.
Few non-denominational schools see people moving home just to have a chance of sending their kids there.
I will chase Christianity out of schools. Along with scientology, Islam, Thumbsupism and MarvinAndrewism.
Nonsense. Any shenanigans from you and you’ll be chased by an angry janny wielding a lavvy brush.
And then you’ll have an embarrassing trip to A&E. (thumbsup)
Cousin showing his mature side to his coache’s decision. Poundland is a long way from France…
Following the removal of Gabon by Mali in the quarterfinals of the African Cup of Nations, the attacker Panthers, Daniel Cousin, criticizes Gernot Rohr, the coach, management of the match: “We lacked freshness, he says in an interview with the site Afrik.com. I do not understand some choices. There were fresh players on the bench, which were not used against Tunisia … “Released in the second half, Cousin added: “I heard that the coach had said it was I who had asked to leave. This is false. I was ready to make the whole game. Even at 50, 60 or 70%, I could bring something to the team. “The future for the former and Manceau Lensois? “I am now on the market. I have some contacts in Greece, but that does not tempt me too. Or in England, but nothing concrete. I do not refuse anything but I’d rather go back to France.”
jimmci
Good point about Stipe Pletikosa. His poor position for the freekick in the pre season game, and subsequent rejection, has been a blessing.
Many were despearte for us to sign him without seeing him.
TinyTim says:
10 February, 2012 at 12:20
‘Fraser Forster is a better keeper than Artur Boruc.’
===============================
That little acid trip…How’s that workin’ out for ya?
Well done on highlighting Downie, Paul.
An unreconstructed, retrograde sectarian bigot in charge of a Scottish public body…Who’d have thought it?
Downie’s entire article in processed soundbite truthspeak: “Kafflik skills, man…”
“We’ve previously seen Rangers fans outraged by Celtic goalie Artur Boric crossing himself during games but less bothered – obviously – by about our own players (like Vladimir Weiss last season) doing the same thing.”
Just to be clear Downie and his fellow Rangers fans are not quite “outraged”. They are “less bothered”.
So they are still “bothered” then.
There should be a debate as to why Rangers fans in public office feel it’s ok to admit that they are bothered about one of their own players making the sign of the cross.
Why, in the 21st Century, does this exist in the country that is “One Scotland, Many Cultures”.
I blame the Kafflik Skools…
A bigoted binman launched an unprovoked sectarian attack on a Celtic fan in a kebab shop.
Craig Donald assaulted student Michael Lafferty after watching Scotland play Spain in a Euro 2012 qualifier.
Donald, who was previously cleared of racially abusing ex-Celtic player Momo Sylla, was drunk after attending a funeral before the match.
The 37-year-old asked which football teams each of the kebab shop customers supported.
When Mr Lafferty, 19, said he was a Celtic fan, Donald called him a “tattie picker”, branded him a “Fenian” and said he would “put a bullet in his head.” He then punched the teenager on the face and left the shop to get in a taxi. When he was arrested Donald admitted carrying out the sectarian attack.
On Friday at Perth Sheriff Court, Donald, a St Johnstone fan who was once convicted of streaking at McDiarmid Park, admitted carrying out an assault aggravated by religious prejudice.
Anybody help !!!!!
I would like to come and visit Scotland and see Neil Lennons Celtic pick up the treble and my wife wants to as come as well
Problem is she is Thai. She has a lifelong German residency and work permit but carries a Thai passport. She can prove that she has resided in Germany for 15 years and that we married last Autumn. I have a UK passport.
Now the problems is this the UK boder agency inform me via a poor website that I need an EEA family member VISA
But I am aware that their is a EU Directive 2004/58/EC that allows Spouses to travel with their partners throughout Europe unhindered.
I think the UK Border Agency has got it wrong and that there is nothing to pay and as long as we can show that we are indeed married then they cannot refuse us entrance to the UK.
DOES ANYONE HAVE SIMILAR OR KNOW OF ANYONE WITH SIMILAR EXPERIENCES ?
Ta in advance
HAil Hail
Dawkins may be a militant atheist, but The God Delusion is an absolutely brilliant deconstruction of all religious ideologies.
Live and let live I say. (except for Hunsfc)
What to make of today’s Herald headlines.
Is it a case of ‘When Thieves Fall Out’ or ‘See The Tangled Web We Weave, as We Practice to Deceive’?
Suppose it doesn’t really matter.
I they are fighting with each other, then they are leaving us alone.
Guys, still having to delete around four comments per day because unbroken lines of —— or links extend the page….
Hartsons Comb, 13:14 thanks for that update on the recent activity of Daniel Cousin. I wondered about that very issue.
SunnyBhoy, indeed.
Eurochamps67, cheers.
TTTT, alas, the CQ edition is officially a limited collectors’ item.
I went to School in Aberdeen and since there are no Catholic high schools there, my catholic education ended after P7. Still when I moved to Glasgow to go to the Yooni, I was one of the few tims still attending mass.
Philvis
Catholic schools are only better because God gives the pupils better grades.
Paul67
I mentioned this on here on Sunday, it was in last weeks Sunday Herald. They reported that the Catholic Church were none to happy about using the organisations website to air his own personal blog, as SVOC represent all charitable groups in Scotland, including SCIAF. Downie also has a season book for ipox.
My wife is a dht of a faith school, my daughter attends the same school. Not once have i ever had my daughter come home with homework on sectairianism. She is taught, respect, tollerance, understanding etc of all other faiths within the curriculum. She has attended mosques, baptist churches, synagogues etc. Never taught sectairianism, so i have no idea where that prat Downie gets his findings. If the teaching was so bad why is there 30 mon catholic families, again, registering their kids for enrolment this year.
She was even lucky enough to get a valentine card yesterday from a siekh boy in her class!
Hi Paul,
“”Downie’s article is subtitled “treating the symptoms not the causes”. I don’t think he was trying to suggest it’s best to treat the symptoms.”
Interesting reading – the chap is tying himself in knots to sound like the voice of reason (or perhaps it’s cogn…….no furgget that), I tried to leave a comment but it probably won’t see the light of day never mind receive a reply.
My main point was why does’t this happen in England?
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
February 10, 2012 at 1:19 pm
Hello John,
“In my opinion one key causes of sectarianism is Scotland continuing to have separate denominational and non-denominational schools………………………..the reality is that separate schools foster estrangement between Catholic and Protestant communities and influence the behaviour of children.”
That is quite an interesting observation and to a certain extent I understand the West of Scotland small mindedness that you were brought up with.
However if Sectarianism in Scottish Schools is inflicting Scottish Society, rather than Scottish Society foisting it’s dysfunctional behaviour on their offspring, would they not have the same problem in England?
I went to a Catholic School in the South of England and found no such issues. All my children went to Catholic schools – again no such issues, in fact my youngest had a best friend from School who’s Mother was (& is) Verger in the local Church of England, they remain great friends today.
My advice for what it’s worth is try getting out of Scotland for a wee while and look at the bigger picture, just might lead to bigger-mindedness.
Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo says:
10 February, 2012 at 13:53
If your a Brit passport holder a quick vist to the Brit embassy / consualte in Germany and you’ll get a travel / holiday visa issued no problem.
greenmaestro says:
10 February, 2012 at 13:57
Did you study logic at Yooni?
philvisreturns says:
10 February, 2012 at 13:47
‘BTW there’s a reason why parents are practically fighting to get their kids into Catholic and Church of England schools.’
No doubt. Sadly, it has little to do with religion.
ernie lynch – No doubt. Sadly, it has little to do with religion.
Not directly, Ernie.
However, I don’t think these schools would teach children any better if they were forced to go secular. (thumbsup)
tomtheleedstim says:
10 February, 2012 at 13:54
‘Dawkins may be a militant atheist, but The God Delusion is an absolutely brilliant deconstruction of all religious ideologies.’
Not according to this guy.
‘Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology………’
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/terry-eagleton/lunging-flailing-mispunching
AsonofDan
Did you have to include that last sentence? The mental picture of that ugly hun streaking naked is making me feel
like throwing up!
This is the only fly in my Celtic supporting ointment. In all other aspects Celtic embody those human qualities I hold most dear.
But the sooner we distance the club from ‘faith’, the better in my opinion.
And teaching any brand of imaginary guff to children is just wrong, especially so in a school environment. Forget the supposed societal externalities, these may or may not exist. Schooling should be free of dogma.
(Now back to my post-hearts buzz)
Paul67,
“The cause of intolerance is not differences in ethnic, religious or sexuality, it is ignorant bigots. It is ludicrous to suggest tackling intolerance by assimilating people into some mono-culture. It’s downright dangerous to blame a minority for intolerance of, and by, them, a sentiment that will only fan the flames of hatred”
This is why they should die.
Árd Macha
Paul67
A good leader. The verifiable facts (when they’re found) would suggest Mr Downie’s “solution” doesn’t actually stand up to scrutiny. I took the trouble to look at some of his other contributions to the SCVO blog and he invariably accuses everyone else of being opinionated. Curious.
philvisreturns says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:10
‘However, I don’t think these schools would teach children any better if they were forced to go secular. (thumbsup)’
They would be no worse. They would still attract the sharp elbowed middle classes who at least would no longer require to keep up a pretence of religious faith.
ernie lynch says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:06
I studied form and bevvy.
Before Downie spouts his mouth off about education, he should check performance tables published by HMIE (a wee relation of HMRC) & SQA. The top performing state schools in both primary & secondary schools in Scotland are faith schools. Whatever next?
The thing is in Scotland Non Denominational Schhols do not exist. They are all Church of Scotland schools!
So lets close all the problem schools and make everybody go to Catholic schools!!!
I’m not a teacher, though I have quite a few friends and relations who are. I am, however, a parent and practising Catholic, very much in favour of retaining Catholic schools, where local communities so desire.
Anyway, based on the accounts of those acquaintances employed in Catholic schools, one cannot help get away from the impression that Catholic schooling is probably in a tricky place, vis-à-vis the promotion of Catholic values.
At least as far as the secondary sector goes.
I’ll give a few quick examples which illustrate my point.
Looking first at secondary schools:
Prayers: morning prayers at registration are rarely said; same at lunchtime and home-time. Many teachers seem to be either unenthusiastic or in too much of a hurry.
A small thing, perhaps, but a reasonable litmus test of a school’s understanding of its role.
In-school masses (not year group or special occasion masses): many schools offer a lunchtime mass once a week.
I would be surprised if such masses are regularly attended by as many as 10 people – from within a school’s entire community (teachers, pupils, support staff).
From an outsider’s point-of-view, addressing the above requires a bit of vision and senior management leadership which just seems to be sorely lacking.
Of course, the biggest influences are in the home, but (kids or not) if you find disinterest and a lack of example all around you, you’re hardly likely to wake up one morning and decide to start practising your faith.
The percentage of kids in Catholic schools who actually practice their faith is undoubtedly dwindling rapidly. Using my own children as examples, in primary classes of around 30, there may be around 12 who practice their faith. In secondary, this figure falls to around 2 or 3 from 30.
Fast forward 25 years or so and where will the knowledge and example come from … ?
The moral of the story could well be: if you want to see the back of Catholic schools in Scotland, keep your trap shut and it’ll happen by itself.
Shame, really.
FF
I am not an iPhone user, but the Club’s official app gets a plug in today’s Guardian: sounds pretty decent.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/appsblog/2012/feb/10/apps-rush-tiesto-celtic-facejacker?newsfeed=true
Ernie – these things are always arguable – there can be no conclusive proof that there is/isn’t a god.
How could there be?
I was an alter boy myself and I can tell you that, personally speaking, his book resonates loud and clear.
greenmaestro says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:16
‘I studied form and bevvy.’
Well at least you wasted your time doing something worthwhile.
Really good stuff from you today Paul. It is, indeed, ludicrous to suggest that we tackle intolerance by pretending we’re all the same.
That said, I thought the final sentiment was best of all. This is a minority issue affecting a minority of the population.
I’ve grown weary of the endless debate, which goes nowhere in the hands of some of the internet goons (apologies to those offended who shouldn’t be), and I’m uncomfortable with the extent to which we afford it credibility.
It is utterly dominant in our football culture, whilst being utterly marginalised within the broader culture. It doesn’t take a genius to deduce that football fans use this issue to score points. The greatest sin being that this has the effect of reducing the interest in, and credibility of, the genuine problems.
Scotland, in it’s remarkable independence movement (being the most effective, socialist and non-violent the world has ever seen – and I say that with no particular bias), offers the ultimate irony for it’s football fans… ok, started a thought I won’t have time to finish.
Anyway, be nice to find ourselves reading about the success of our team and club a bit more often, but imagine it will be a long time before our focus falls firmly on our own affairs again. Another irony, when you consider just how many CQN contributors have been scathing of our board and the direction they have taken the club in. The contrast between Glasgow’s two main clubs could hardly be greater, and I’d like to see those fans who berate the board for inaction/lack of spending take a seat, and the same goes for those who don’t get that our clubs great reputation and image is due to similar wisdom routed in our support.
Quizzler – Schooling should be free of dogma
Very dogmatic of you. Presumably secular dogma would also be unwelcome? (thumbsup)
ernie lynch – They would be no worse. They would still attract the sharp elbowed middle classes who at least would no longer require to keep up a pretence of religious faith.
I think they probably would be worse Ernie. Their Christian ethos contributes to the atmosphere of discipline and learning. At least, that’s what the people who work in these schools tend to think. The fact that Christian schools tend to outperform their secular equivalents, ceteris paribus, suggests there is something to this view.
I sense you dislike the middle classes, sharp-elbowed or otherwise, but there’s nothing wrong with them trying to give their children the best start in life. (thumbsup)
Chairbhoy says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:03
======================
Nice comments sir.
This alleged Director of Public Affairs will find that he has opened a pandora’s box regarding the historical development of bigotry in Scotland.
EG The REAL reason why Catholic schools exist.
Why, for decades, Catholics were forced to pay the same taxes as Non Denoms yet got a lower level of service from local government. They were required to pay the same taxes, but the only educational choice offered was a school where only Church of Scotland religious instruction was allowed. Catholics formed and paid for parish schools so that their own religion coould be taught in school to their children.
Back in the day, the Scottish Establishment went out of it’s way to force Catholicism out of their society. The marginalisation of Catholics, educationalyl, was part of that practice. Catholics actually wanted to attend Non-Denom schools and only asked that their children receive Catholic religious instruction. Instead, they were told that the Church of Scotland was the only religious instruction allowed. An instruction which at that time included tirades against the Churhc of Rome and papist influence in Scotland. Just like native Americans being forced to attend white schools, if the Catholic community had allowed this to happen, their whole culture and belief system would have been washed away in one generation.
Now because non-denom schools are almost wholly secular, the same forces that made Catholic schools necessary, are now claiming that they should be removed because they are the cause of the very sectarianism that forced their introduction. You couldn’t sell this story to a movie producer because he’d say it was too ridiculous.
HH
RWE CSC
tomtheleedstim says:
10 February, 2012 at 14:19
‘I was an alter boy’
How very er…….. modern.
Does this Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations receive Government funding?
If so, it seems a strange use of the taxpayers’ money to pursue an agenda outwith the organisation’s remit.
Árd Macha