Celtic v Kilmarnock, Live updates
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Not a big Andrew Neil fan but this will do for me:
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-34877683
Herbo
If he scores six a game, he would soon bankrupt you.
I miss the buzz of watching my son play. He destroys me at golf these days. :)
Daniel did a funny.
Well done Daniel.
Right the Brazen beckons, thunderes plots and treasons to be discussed HH
Lurking Huns GIRFUYs
HERBO
Cheers for that mate, totally agree about them playing with a smile on their face, no diving and posturing. Still fear the worst for this afternoon and he’s 17 now and takes it bad !
doomandgloomcsc
HH
Hamilton level v Aberdeen!
1-1 Accies
TwentyFirst
Show me a good looser and all that. Hopefully they surprise you today.
Herbo
Get the coaches to give your bhoy a few games at the back .
It will let you save up and well done .
My bhoy’s game got called off yesterday after the ref watched me putting up the nets .
LOL
TONYDONNELLY 1304
I’ll put it more simply for you.
When someone visits your local pub,on your territory,to explain his reasoning,he expects to be met with your reasoning.
Your reasoning was clearly defined as a slap,to a man whom you knew would not be able to give you one back,due to his job.
That story came to me third-hand at best. And achieved one quite incredible result-you went down in my estimation!
I hope you are proud of that. For me,it is an extreme of bullying.
DD
Ha! I let the wean win nothing because I know the time is coming, and very soon, that he’ll scud me at everything. At least he knows he’s earned it
Canny beat a proud Dad moment. I’ve got one today. He’s away out with his Mum so I could either tell you lot or talk to the mirror :-)
SOAL
Haha nightmare. Where you wearing a CQN badge or something. MiB n all that.
No danger about playing at the back. Defenders just make up the numbers :-)
Herbo
My hands were sticking to the crossbar it was that cold
Love
SOAL.
Don’t mean to rub it in but it was beautiful this morning :-)
BMCUWP,
Why anyone would estimate TD as anything other than a liberty taker is beyond me, we know he is a low life bully from his drivel spouted on here.
HERBO
Ha , I never used to let him win either, now Im on the end of a regular skelping at pool, snooker, darts and golf. Get your victories in just now while you can
HH
HERBO
It is indeed maybe the wife could even get a washing out for a few hours
Love
TwentyFirst
Exactly my thoughts. I’m already getting a regular Skelping at FIFA.
SOAL
Definitely a good drying day.
Aberdeen draw as well, so no change at all in top 3 after week end.
1-1 f-t
Poor show yesterday but no ground lost.
Well done Hamilton.
As you were and no harm done by yesterday’s dropped points.
BMCUWP
That’s the story I heard too.
CANAMALAR
Aye,indeed. But I have to agree with the guy who tried to explain things on TD’s home turf.
I’d have done the same,have done similar frequently.
But I’ll tell you what,for all my chitchat in The Orange Club in Kilwinning,or The Rangers Supporters Club and NI Supporters Club on Shankhill Road,no-one has ever hit me. There or elsewhere.
For it to happen off a fellow Celtic supporter in a Celtic pub,that must have hurt more than the slap did.
I look forward to the media lining up Derek McInnes’ replacement tomorrow.
Maybe not.
Herbo
The skelpings will come soon. I never let my sons beat me at anything. The day has come when they beat me at every sport. :)
THEGLASGOWCELTICWAY
Always a pleasure to see you on here,bud.
How’s yer lad enjoying the match experience that you introduced him to?
My sisters were cursing me after yesterday!
BMCUWP,
That’s how cardboard gangsters operate, I’ve no doubt he will be back on babbling shite about defending himself.
Good Afternoon.
Good Afternoon.
Some took my post of yesterday as an out and out criticism of Fergus MCcann, whilst others suggested that I might be seen as condescending towards many Celtic fans and be accused of somehow “looking down” on them in some way.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Others suggested that my critcism of the PLC structure and Fergus’ chosen exit strategy smacked of revisionism and some form of wished for utopia. Again, I would suggest that is not so and will accordingly try to explain — just don’t expect brevity!!
Fergus McCann’s takeover of Celtic was to be very much welcomed. Here was someone with dynamism, a business plan, an entrepreneurial outlook and sufficient independent financial clout to see off the toxic Bank of Scotland and various other horrible institutions. He provided clear leadership and a Celtic orientated benign dictatorship. Not everyone agreed with him, and some I know felt stabbed in the back by him when it became clear that things would be done his way and no other.
However he got himself into the position where he could call the shots and I for one was glad he did.
However, I reject the idea that he was the only game in town. There were others, but they were either too close to Glasgow or members of the old board, and in my opinion they lacked the steely drive that Fergus brought. Some had a different agenda and just wanted the old board out so they could get in and say they were part owners if Celtic. What their strategy would have been further down the line is now a matter for conjecture and of no relevance. But there were others willing to throw their hat in the ring – some of whom I had no time for to be honest.
I fully supported Fergus and do not grudge him a single penny he took away from Celtic.
What always worried me was his stated intention to leave with his money after so many years and then to deliver the club to the “fans”. My question at the time was “what next?” and in my opinion a PLC should never have been the answer.
Here is why?
Far from being a “rebels” tool, the whole PLC structure with its regulations, rules and laws, is the most conservative, capitalist and wealth orientated management tool in business. It is a perfectly good device and model in respect of some businesses but it will never deliver ownership of a football club to its fans and I have always been convinced of that.
Fergus stated that when he sold the first tranch of shares that this would ensure that Celtic would never again be controlled by just a few. In this, he was wholly and completely wrong, as once you are down the PLC route, share classes, voting rights, pre-emptoion rights and so on can all be introduced, manipulated and worked with such legal subtelty that the true impact is not noticed by the ordinary guy until it is far too late.
Once he was gone, Fergus – like any other seller – could not control that.
Many qualified accountants, lawyers and others can get lost in the detail of the companoes acts and the regulations regarding shares as it is a truly specialised field. The PLC model will always be the field of play for the stockmarket specialists who know how to buy and sell control of a company and how to make the main shaireholders ever powerful.
Celticonemanonevote has pointed out in an earlier post that over 80% of modern day Celtic shares are owned by just 5 people who might just as well be called Kelly, White, Grant, Devlin and whoever.
Contrary to what Fergus said or intended — those 5 run the show and the little man, the seasosn ticket holder, the guy with the few shares – can do very very little about it.
Now, those 5 people may well have Celtic’s interest at heart. You may disagree with them about how they go about it, but there is little you can do about the way they chose to run Celtic.
That is the result of the PLC left by Fergus – rightly or wrongly.
The PLC model is all about the ability to control an entity or business and then sell it or transfer it easily and without fuss when the moment suits. It is a series of management tools, sales devices and statutory obligations enforced on shareholder and director alike.
It has nithing whatsoever to do with consensus of opinion, common values or any type of mission statement or moral compass.
It is all about control.
So what happens when these 5 shareholders with the 80% say choose to move on?
There is nothing whatsoever the majority can do to prevent them from selling the club on to a Randy Learner, a Roman Obramovitch or dare I say it a David Murray — just as the California based “Rangers” man Lawrence Marlborough did when he decided that Rangers Football Club was not for him.
The rest if the fans had no say — even those who held biggish blocks of shares – and they lived to rue the day!
What we now have is a Celtic that is thought of as a PLC by those 5 and their board, instead of being thought of as a club.
Think about this:
Each year the PLCis obliged by law to have an AGM – it is a stautory requirement where the accounts are adopted, directors reappointed and all that statutory stuff. The reason the Companies Acts say you must have one is so that the ordinary shareholders get at least ONE chance to question the board each year and even then the meeting is steered by the board who can direct and put a time limit on the meeting — you get about half an hour to an hour of question time.
AN AGM is the BARE MINIMUM in terms of public accountability to the shareholders and in Celtic’s case none of the 5 shareholders who run the show are ever present.
That is a PLC – not a club.
A year ago, a very business like Celtic shareholder was telling me that he was looking to raise many millions of pounds for his business by a slightly unconventional method. He had been to several top law firms and all of them had charged thousands of pounds for providing him with opinions that said he shouldn’t do this, or that there were numerous problems with his thinking, and that his method was unconventional and posed numerous problems. They were all very negative and each and every one was paid and then sacked.
Eventually, the man asked another firm to tell him how his plan could be worked legally and safely and speifically told them he did not want advice on how it couldn’t be done but how it could.
The firm concerned put a bit of effort into it, provided the advice, the steppings stones and the template and were richly rewarded when the man raised many millions of pounds legally and successfully. So successfully that I believe others followed suit.
When Fergus sought an exit strategy he was given poor advice or at least advice which did not guarantee or bring about his stated intention of perpetual fan ownership. It is the only aspect of his tenure which has been a total failure. I suspect that he was advised to go down the PLC route because it was established, easy, sort of brought about what he wanted at least initially – and most importantly that any other model was just too damned hard to think about and bring into being.
Corporate lawyers are not noted for originality, creativity and for thinking out of the box. Indeed it could be argued that such thinking is in fact a threat to their long term business interests.
They are not – rebels!
Lots of people, including my late father, genuinely and faithfully bought into Fergus’ vision that “WE” would now always own part of the club going forward and have a say in its running.
Sadly, that is not the case. THAT was the undeliverable utopia with a PLC model.
A PLC model with voting rights is almost the equivalent of saying that the value of your vote in a general election will be in direct proportion to the amount of council tax you pay. If you own a wee house you get x votes, if you are the Duke of Buccleuch you get x votes times y because you own a bigger property than the wee guy — but you each have a vote — just not an equal one.
I believe that ordinary fans should have a far bigger say in the running of the club. For a start they are far more in touch with the fanbase. They spend more money on the club than the main shareholders – and they sure as hell do far more in the community than the block vote brigade.
For those who would say that fans can’t agree on the time of day at times, then I would say you are correct and so you sometimes have to appeal to the majority, appeal to the common will, common sense and at times compromise your own position.
Football fans know that a club has to be sustainable, be run as a business, and have business types at the helm. They know that they need professionals at key points no matter what the business structure and that at times you must allow those experts to lead the way.
The same fans don’t go taking out their own appendix, or stripping down their car engine by themsleves – they consult their doctor and their mechanic — but it is their doctor and their mechanic — not one that is forced upon them.
The current Celtic board do not know the meaning of the words “flexible”, “compromise” and “democratic” because with 80% of the shares owned by just 5 similarly minded and similarly situated people they have no need of democracy, compromise or common will.
What they say- goes! And that is the end of it.
Now, I fully expect that Mr Bankier has chaired his last AGM as these people are not stupid. They know and can see he is out of his depth and they will change it.
However, they also need to look in the mirror because Celtic PLC could have more meetings with its shareholders but doesn’t. They could have meeting where shareholders could hear from the ever silent non execs and discuss various things about the running of the club. But they don’t.
The club has recently started to have some extra meetings but they are only for the invited few and then all decision making is left in the hands of the board and the 5 who control the 80% – and as I have said above it is the question who follows the 5 that could be really concerning as whoever that is may just make Dermot, Peter & Co look like Brother Walfrid and Francis of Assisi.
There are other ways to run a football club, even with a PLC structure at the top where the shares are held in trust for an unincorporated association and where a board of management is elected on a one member one vote principle or even on a different voting structure which reflects that certain individuals retain a bigger shout because they have made an investmet and seek a return.
All of that can be done – it is not a myth or a piece of wishful thinking it is all possible if there is a will to do it.
Such a structure would not prevent DD lending the club money and gaining 6% interest as he does just now, and such a structure would not frighten away banks, finance houses and other potential investors. Lenders could negotiate the right to have a seat at the management table as could significant interest parties, groups and so on.
Business is a thing that moves forward and changes yearly. When Fergus walked through the parkhead gates with the keys, no businesses of any size were assisted by crowd funding or other such models.
People using such models often employ excellent gatekeepers such as Peter Lawwell who is then answerable to the common will and not just the secret 5.
In recent years the Scottish Government has openly funded commissions and investigations into the possibility of football clubs being owned and ran by fans. Paul Goodwin was appointed and ran investigative studies into the possibility and the findings are worth reading.
My post yesterday was not a criticism of Fergus McCann but a criticism of the structure he has left behind. Which structure and management, I understand is not to Fergus’ own liking in many respects. A senior company executive spoke to him recently and he was openl;y critical of certain things at Celtic and how the club were run.
Right now we are run from on high by a few as a PLC.
I don’t believe that was ever Fergus’ inetention.
However, if those running such a PLC cannot or will not engage with the ethos of the celtic fanbase — which fanbase did indeed crowdfund Fergus’ business vision to a certain extent – then they will lose customer support, see revenue drop, investment value fall and will ultimately shrug their shoulders, sell and move on — and that could be absolutely disasterous.
Being more than a club or a club like no other — means far more than painting that legend on a few seats and it means far more than producing a stable set of accounts and holding a single predetermined meeting once a year.
There were alternatives to a PLC route — but I will wager that for some legal and corporate types the very idea was just far too much like damned hard work and so the easy “establishment” PLC route was taken.
In this way the rebels appear to have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
CANAMALAR
I think he’ll ignore it and say he hasn’t read it.
Well, it would appear the SMSM will have to rewrite their “news” for tomorrow. It was to be all about Celtic being pulled back by the other two.
Yesterday, I was not well enough to go to the game. I listened to Shartbread which I never do. The presenter tells us Hearts have just scored and now they are only four points behind Celtic. Excuse me, but when do teams get points for scoring before the end of a game. Does the match not have to go the full term?Are they just inept, stupid or well you can put your own version to that?.Of course before the end of the game we were reminded that Aberdeen could reduce Celtic’s lead by winning at Hamilton.
Lhads on here have advised us not to listen to Snide or Shortbread. In future I will put that warning into practice.
Has there been a more pointless weekend in the SPL? Well other than the ones after we’ve already won the League.
Maybe the SFA should allow the substitutes to throw folding chairs on the pitch for the players to hit each other with. That should make it more of a spectacle.
BRTH 2.35pm
A very thought provoking and informative post.
I enjoyed reading that. Thanks.
Hail hail
Has there been any truly fan owned football clubs that were successful?
Typos galore in that — but I was in a hurry as the computer keeps inexplicably shutting down for some reason.
A bit lost, who is slapping who ?
BRTH
On the button again. It’s great to have someone articulate my exact opinions on PLC/Fergus far better than I could dream of.
Gaun yersel!