I was speaking to someone with only a notional interest in football last week who complained about football fans logic on several fronts including the notion of History.
I was asked, “What does it matter if a Rangers Newco playing at Ibrox being supported by the same people have an intangible claim to what happened in the past?
“Their memories remain, they cannot relive the past, what matters most is the future.”
Only a non-football fan could think like this, of course. History is the context for whatever happens today, without it, the game is diminished, but we are now in a fascinating debate. In practical terms, Rangers history could become quite a burden with the next few weeks.
The SPL are currently undertaking an inquiry into alleged illegal registration of players at Rangers during the 13 years before Craig Whyte rescued the club from the old board. Hundreds of football matches could have been played, many trophies ‘won’ with footballers ineligible to play.
If these allegations are proven, games involving ineligible players will be marked as 3-0 defeats. So much for the history, but what about the punishment?
Our friends at STV suggest that the SPL hold the view that the transfer of a league share from a liquidated company to a Newco would inherit historical rights from the liquidated party’s past. For Rangers Newco, this would include penalties for around 500 games played by Rangers FC with invalidly registered footballers.
The tariff of which could sink even the healthiest balance sheet.
But still, if liquidated, Rangers FC, founded around 1872 and incorporated in 1899 would cease. Newco can play wherever they like, it would be a new club. The law would protect it from misdeeds of the old company while any assets, such as the badge design, film archive or historic Arsenal shares could be purchased by any third party, including Newco. And before you bid, owning the badge design does not make you Rangers any more than if you acquired Rangers SPL share.
We’ve been told you can buy and sell history in recent weeks which is clearly nonsense but in finding a path through this subject you need to ask what is in the power of each and any organisation or group to affirm.
The SPL can transfer a share in the league and, in conjunction with the SFA, player registrations. Both can also impose outstanding disciplinary measures.
Duff and Phelps can sell the badge design independent of the league share.
Craig Whyte can sell the stadium independent of all of the above.
No one can sell, buy or transfer 140 years of history, which is why football fans recoil at suggestions of a Newco replacing their team.
Can you write an article for CQN Magazine? Give me a shout, celticquicknews@gmail.com
Pay your bills!
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. This Rangers thing is Like the First Rocky Movie (Rangers being Rocky)..One Minute their on the Canvas Never going to get Back Up..Then their Up..Then their Back down on the Canvas..
I Really Hope it’s a Different Ending this Time..
Or Have Rocky II..Next Season..
and So on For Years…
Wonder who will Play Adrianne..
Adrianne..!! Adrianne..!! Arianne..!!.
Summa
bournesoup
That’s just how I imagine TBB.
Asking fans if a Rangers newco is welcomed back into the SPL would they turn their back on the Scottish game. To date an overwhelming 78%
@scotzine
ernie..,
a bill is only issued if evidence of malpractice is available.
From the CST.
You can ge in touch via @TheCelticTrust on Twitter
http://www.celtictrust.net/?func=d_home_article&id=361
Celts for Integrity – anyone up for this?
Published on Thursday 12th April, 2012 by Celtic Trust
The announcement by the SPL of the proposed rule changes to deal with Clubs who fall into administration and/or liquidation has angered many Celtic fans and fans of other Clubs. The fact that it has also angered the RST on the grounds of being too severe is, at one and the same time, bizarre and entirely predictable given the state of denial in which that particular organisation exists. More importantly, however, is what we are going to do about it.
The Celtic Trust have asked for a meeting, as a matter of urgency, with Celtic to ascertain what their thinking is in relation to the vote on these resolutions. There have also been a number of calls from members and other supporters to look at boycotts of away games. In addition there has been a proposal from within the membership to let the sponsors of the SFA/SPL know that we will take action, in the form of boycotts and other actions, against them if they fail to bring pressure to bear on the SPL to maintain the sporting integrity of the league competition. Other members have already suggested that Celtic should tender their resignation from the league in protest if these resolutions are passed,
Whatever happens, and whatever action we choose to take, it is absolutely vital that we stand together on this one. Not only should all the Celtic supporters’ organisations and individual supporters unite to defend the integrity of the game but, if at all possible, we should be standing shoulder to shoulder with the Club in opposing the introduction of a ‘get-out’ clause for Clubs who have effectively cheated for years on end and who have defrauded the citizens of this country.
If the SPL think they can be all things to all men on this one they need to be informed, and quickly, that nothing short of a robust and impartial defence of the integrity of the game will do.
A competition without integrity is not one which many people will be willing to pay money to watch – not now and not ever.
Sorry if I’m covering old ground
Who exactly in “the SPL” has come up with these proposals, it surely can’t be Doncaster on his own? If its the SPL board, I have additional questions
Auld Neil Lennon heid –
A good statement in my opinion.
Jobo
Some alternative views about the Newco situation, if you’re interested:
Hibs
Hearts
Aberdeen
United
Kilmarnock
TTTT
TET
What do you mean coming on here and talkin’ about Celtic?
Are you no on the right site?
It’s good to hear the moral arguemnt being aired at last as it’s at the heart of this whole matter. To my mind even if Rangers win their appeal at the tax tribunal, the very fact that they used and persisted with EBTs to ensure some of the best paid people in the country did not pay tax, while the ordinary man and woman was duly handing it over, is grossly, fundamentally, immoral and, as a result, the “institution” is changed forever.
For, Rangers and manifest support of the State were supposed to go hand in hand, defining the character of the club and as a means of proudly bonding with its supporters. The realisation that they are involved in excessive, prolonged and deep rooted tax avoidance, even if proved, ultimately, to be legal, casts a long shadow on the nature of Rangers that, if they survive, will haunt them for years to come.
They have, so to speak, demonstrated themselves to be an enemy of the state and their self proclaimed place as favoured sons and daughters of the state must surely be diminished in their own eyes, not just in the eyes of their detractors. I can only see years of psychological pain for them as they are mercilessly taunted everywhere they go…unless they start to seek forgiveness and show some humility, which won’t happen.
by all means change the rules about clubs going in to and out of administration, but when it comes to liquidation then there should be no chance of a replacement ‘newco’ being allowed in to the SPL
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire on 12 April, 2012 at 20:51 said:
”ernie..,
a bill is only issued if evidence of malpractice is available.”
Bit like the PF issuing a summons then?
Resolutions to be voted on at the 30 April meeting are proposals from the Scottish Premier League executive (Neil Doncaster). They have nothing to do with the Gang of 10 nor are they a Duff and Phelps/Rangers conspiracy. The resolutions are not set in tablets of stone and have no authority in their own right. The League has form in voting down executive resolutions, in particular overthrowing plans for a 10 team league last year, so, in theory, the votes could go for or against.
Neil Doncaster, being as thorough as he is, has almost certainly shared his plan with the man along the corridor at Hamden, SFA chief exec, Stewart Regan. He is also likely to have taken guidance from the Uefa executive, specifically CEO David Taylor, formerly of this parish. It would be unnecessarily lax to leave legislative loose ends before embarking on such a radical plan, so forget about any intervention by the SFA (cough) or Uefa.
Above is from Paul67
JimmyQuinnsBits
I asked the same thing last night.
The thing that bothers me is we have a rep on the board.
I pray we had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
Philbhoy
Well we do have rather a big game on sunday, just wondering who Lenny has available so all the slagging off of the team can take place :>)
ernie,
no, its like the judge passing sentence, and the accused appealing the sentence.
The judgement was made to issued the bill.
Rangers win BTC,cqn goes into melt down shouting “it’s our boards fault I will not be renewing my season book,Paul 67 when will they make a statement on this ffs give me lawells phone number”
Jobo Baldie – any early goals at Rugby Park? I’ve a fiver on Charlie for 1st goal scorer!
The SPL post rangers…..Here is a wee suggestion that required virtually no thinking to avoid the apparent financial disaster of an SPL without them…….
I am sure cleverer folks can do much better with a bit of thought, but it is not in the meeja interest though…
Here goes :
TV income assume reduction in overall deal of roughly what is currently awarded to 2nd place club ie no change to any of non old firm teams any way……based on current irish sky deals and similar in europe……
Potential for increased revenue from TV coverage of new play offcompetition for clubs 2-7 as per Rugby Super League with prize of 2nd CL slot and UEFA slots….
Play offs would generate 6 or 7 Full houses for matches as well as heightened end of season interest as teams compete for best seeding.
Typical post season scenario :
Wild Card Games :
Motherwell v Hibs & Kilmarnock v Aberdeen over 2 legs …..
Semi finals : Hibs v Hearts & Abedeen v Dundee Utd over 2 legs
Final : Aberdeen v Hibs at Hampden for 2nd CL place
Play off : Dundee Utd v Hearts for UEFA place
For right to 2nd CL place and the riches that go with it…….
So loads more meaningful games attracting bigger crowds, more exciting TV matches no rangers to depend on, chance of CL for many……..
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire on 12 April, 2012 at 21:05 said:
”ernie,
no, its like the judge passing sentence, and the accused appealing the sentence.
The judgement was made to issued the bill.”
No it’s not. No more than the fiscal makes a judgement in issuing a summons.
HMRC are not a judicial body.
A wee follow up to the “whose idea was it anyway?” question.
If,as reported,it was the work of Mr.Doncaster in his capacity as Executive,can anyone clarify if devising such resolutions are part of his mandate?
Where does it appear in his Role Description/spl rules/articles of association etc?
Where,for example,do the notions of an 8 vote for the most radical proposals and 11 for others come from?
Also,where does the timescale for perusal,understanding and voting on some of the most dramatic proposals in the history of the game being a laughable 19 days come from?
From a man/organisation which,54 days after the event,still have no outcome as to whether sectarian singing took place at a football match?
Or,more than 5 weeks after starting an investigation into whether clubs operated payment schemes not reported to them/him and still no news?
Kris Commons, despite barely featuring this season, is third in the SPL assists table with nine assists, one behind Tony Stokes on ten, and Interesting Davis who has 13 for the Huns.
To me it’s a quite incredible stat, and shows what Commons brings to the team, even though he has yet to score this season. On Saturday, I thought he exuded menace any time he had possession in the final third.
.
StMicheal..
Did Davis Stumble in the Penalty box 13 Times then..:O)
Summa
Awe Naw
Are you coming over to the best wee bigoted country in May?
I’ll echo Awe_Naw, or Paul67, in his words.
No-one is going to step in here. If the SPL chairmen vote for this, the gig is fecked and Scottish football is sentenced to a long slow death.
That will be the price of “saving” Rangers. Darryl King, in his urge to forgive and forget, has ignored the true nature of the game, and why fans go to see it. Ask the supporters of Kilmarnock, who this year won the League Cup. Football is not set in stone. It is a game where anything can happen and everything can change. It is a game where 11 play 11 and on a day where one manager has done his homework and another has not, giant killing acts can take place which live in the memory of fans forever. The future is not written. Not when the game is straight.
But if football is a rigged game, like professional wrestling, where one side is allowed to do anything in pursuit of victory, where the rules do not really apply, where those rules can be ignored, or changed, at the whims of one club, then the game is NOT straight, and the idea of going to see becomes less interesting.
Scottish football fans already see this as a skewed game, with the whole league favouring two clubs in the big decisions, in the dispersal of income, in the voting structure etc. They see this and they don’t like it and it’s put off tens of thousands of them in the last few years. Remove the last vestiges of pretense, turn this into something that, by its very NATURE, is a rigged game … and watch them march into the sunset in their droves. Watch the low slow decline become a sharp downhill slide into oblivion.
Kill Rangers and clubs will die says King, and he might be right. But only those who, like Der Hun, are dependent on a flawed system which is slowly strangling the sport. But let Rangers urinate on the rule-book, make it official, legislate for huge frauds and bring the wrath of the banks, the tax authorities, local authority bodies and other organisations down on the national sport – Celtic included, and we WILL suffer for Rangers profligacy if these measures go through – and this game is TRULY dead, and that day will not be long coming.
Clubs will die SLOW deaths, but they will die nonetheless. Sponsorship money will dry up as sponsors realise – partly as a result of supporter action – that they have bought into a fix, a con job, and that the fans aren’t playing.
Banks will demand debt repayments over shorter periods, to protect themselves – and why the Hell not? HMRC will be thermonuclear in their anger, and act accordingly. I guarantee that political pressure of some kind WILL be brought to bear which removes football’s protections under the law, or forces draconian measures, the kind Rangers DO deserve, will be brought in nationally, across the UK, as creditors react in HORROR to what the SPL has done.
The Cheats Charter is a suicide note. Without “sporting integrity” this becomes rollerball, where the person willing to stoop lowest stands the best chance of winning. That is not a sport myself, or many others, want to watch. Darryl King tonight – we owe him a debt of gratitude. Because now the wretched face of the hun has been revealed in all its twisted malice.
The hun is not sorry. He does not repent. He sees no reason to. He believes it is his right to defraud, to cheat, to behave with reckless abandon and then be absolved of all of it because he is who he is. The scabby faced thug in the deadbeat string vest, with all the finese of Jimmy Five Bellies and the morals of an Enron salesman. “Sporting integrity” means nothing. Integrity itself as a vain idea, best left in romance novels. The Good of the Game comes down to the good of one club. Now the world can see it for what it is.
I feel a backlash of epic proportions coming if this goes down. But, as I say, it will not come from the so-called “authorities”, who’s idea of justice is as warped as the club they are labouring so mightily to save, in whatever rancid form.
It will come from people like us.
Woe betide the “guardians” of our game if this comes to pass.
St Michaels
Good stat, and NL seems to be playing him more centrally than last season. Commons and Samaras will influence the game on Sunday. Same team v Kilmarnock for me.
Voguepunter has 1 of them palm trees next to his big armchair in his living room ,big Peter McAully originaly from Burnside told me ,thats the truth
OK, I admit I’m not on the habit of sitting on boards of high-profile organisations, and I may be chewin on an old bone whilst others have the rib-eye
But… if I was on the board of the SPL, I guess I’d be a wee bit unchuffed that proposals were being put out into the public domain without due governance.
Really? Proposals for major changes to SPL rules, and the board don’t get the opportunity to discuss and review – whats the board there for?
I am honestly too cynical in the capabilities and discipline of your average human being for conspiracy theories. I don’t believe there has been an ongoing conspiracy across governing bodies – a mindset problem with some individuals, yes.
However, there is a smell of fear and underhand dealings in all of this. Some people in power have honest, if misguided, fears about the impact of no huns on scottish football, others are trying to cover the tracks of their misdemeanors, and others have ulterior motives. I’m now convinced there is collusion between these; for different reasons, but to the same purpose.
Malorbhoy
At this moment. I dont know. Waiting on a VISA for the wife
HH
Well worth a read.
Apologies, off topic, but a good read if your interested in Hillsborough and the connection to the battle of Orgreave.
Dan
I welcome the statement from the Celtic Trust. If the SFA/SPL think they can blitzkrieg ( in Berlin at the moment ) sporting integrity they must be called to account.
It would help if the Celtic Trust could reach out to the Celtic diaspora through the Internet and CSA to align on the Celtic Supporters views. Equally it is important to connect with supporters of other clubs to ensure there is a broader mandate established for the battle that lies ahead.
There needs to a complete rejection of a newco entry to the SPL otherwise it is all out war with the SFA/SPL and the various sponsors such as sky etc
Celtic need to realise that today and for next 3 years they are Scottish football. They need to stop feeling like the victim ; Celtic need to take leadership and start demanding what they want. This ” keep our powder dry approach ” will allow nobodies like Regan and Doncaster to renter the newco. Celtic need to flex their muscle.
I do not trust Peter Lawwell on this newco. I suspect he will take the path of least resistance. Already I hear to many well placed Celtic fans giving tacit approval to a newco in the ‘right circles’.
The sporting integrity phrased was coined by Peter Lawwell during Gordon Strachans last title win. Now the Celtic Trust have to remind him that this is on a totally different scale to then ; it’s cheating, tax evasion, double contracts all rolled up into one as opposed to extending a season by 2 weeks.
So I strongly urge the Celtic Trust to go the full way and I am convinced they can be successful…….with Peter Lawwells support.
James Forrest – excellent post as usual…………….
James Forrest is Neil Lennon! We are ALL Neil Lennon! on 12 April, 2012 at 21:22 said:
Bang !
Cut’n’pasted’n’saved if you dont mind Sir.
StMichaelsBhoy2 on 12 April, 2012 at 21:16 said:
…………
I think the MIB have the greatest no of assists for der Hun…. Ave goal per game innit.
V
Very quickly lads, POTM votes for March please for my report, did a quick vote the other night but only got 3 votes! So a few more in the nex half hour or so would be great as I am currently writing the report with a view to sending it to Paul tonight! :)
HH
champions!
Beging to feel swamped by the ever arriving information from Paul.
We are used to being told we are/were paranoid.
Paranoia doesn’t even start to explain the rage, the feeling of being stood on and kept in place.
I can only hope and pray our board rise up to claim the righteous ground – the ‘Holy Ground’.
Auld Neil Lennon heid on 12 April, 2012 at 20:53 said:
From the CST.
………………………………..
Good, measured statement from the CST and in complete contrast to the rubbish that the RST come away with .
How can two supporters trusts be so different?