Celtic will play Juventus in the last 16 round of the Champions League. Juve are seven points clear top of the Italian league having won the competition last season without losing a game. They eliminated reigning European champions, Chelsea, in the last round and finished above a good Shakthar team.
They are remarkably well organised and don’t lose many goals (10 in 17 league games, 7 less than anyone else), but this is a tie Celtic can plan for. Juventus will present the same kind of challenge Barcelona did in the group stage, but they are not as effective as the Catalans.
Celtic have faced them twice in the European Cup/Champions League previously, winning both home games and losing away on each occasions, controversially in 2001.
I’m up for this one. Fairy-tale story with the lovable Celts the only British representatives in the quarter finals? Loins girded.
‘Due to the level of demand for the CQN Annual orders received between now and 2pm Friday will be sent special delivery to ensure they arrive on Monday 24th. Last chance for the Christmas stocking filler, get the CQN Annual here!
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Good morning friends and a Big Happy (pre-Christmas) Friday from a damp and overcast East Kilbride.
Christmas day/evening out in town today with the work (featuring CQN lurkers) so ole Jobo’s even happier than usual – if that’s possible.
Dario Franchitti at Celtic Park
Jobo Baldie
You have a Fantastic Day/Evening old Chap.
My fav
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbuiQtxEZ40
Petec
I don’t judge Kojo.
I judge his words he types in black ad white on these pages.
I have nothing else but that to go on with the man/woman.
I don’t like what I have read in the past. I and others have questioned that? That has been perceived as bullying by some. That’s life if that’s how some read it.
As I say. Like the DR, SSB nowadays I just switch off.
Are you not being judgemental of those who dislike Kojo/Philvis etc.
Have you not been a little judgemental of Tom this morning
Being judgemental is a natural human instinct. Otherwise how could we ever decide whom to rust or not to trust, who would be our spouses, our friends, our politicians of choice. It’s what we do daily and almost instantaneously on meeting a stranger.
Whether I am judge by an ultimate being or not is of no consequence to me in how I live my life as I do not live it in fear of being judged by anyone or any other supreme being. I just lie it as best I can with all my failings.
MWD
Petec:
Well that does not leave me much time to polish of my Black Label.
My tuppence worth regards Juventus, they are the team I wanted.
MWD:
I’ll bell Ramie over the weekend, I think he will be setting out on a charge right about now.
I’m with MWD.
Zero tolerance of racism, no less so when it is delivered in a ‘folksy’ patois with Janet and John logic…
West Wales Celt
No need to drag Janet and John into it if wasn’t for them I wouldn’t be able to read or write.
Get your Mayan Calendar (edition 2) 22/12/2012 to 21/12/7012 here.
MWD
Moonbeams WD
Danny, I know, already you are taking on board stuff he said a while ago.
Kojo is Brutally strong in his rhetoric.
To be honest I just wanted to Praise you and your efforts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruAi4VBoBSM
Kojo is talking a lot longer term than any current commentator I have seen on CQN.
Kojo is a Brutal guy but is willing to keep taking the abuse, he is a proud person
Others might argue he is a turnip!
kitalba
07:18 on 21 December, 2012
Petec:
Well that does not leave me much time to polish of my Black Label.
My tuppence worth regards Juventus, they are the team I wanted.
________________________________________________________________
I’m just annoyed that we were all coerced into upgrading browsers.
That reallly annoys me Kitalba.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMxRDTfzgpU
What about Dick and Dora… Am I showin my age?
Although with my grammer and spelling they may well want to disown me:-)
This is good Pete
HILLSBOROUGH – Y.N.W.A HE AIN’T HEAVY HE’S MY BROTHER
kitalba
07:37 on 21 December, 2012
This is good Pete
HILLSBOROUGH – Y.N.W.A HE AIN’T HEAVY HE’S MY BROTHER
_________________________________________________________________
Youtube is never going to do this JUSTICE, Thank You Kit.
last day at work for two weeks;
let the madness commence….
kitalba
You know Fez, obviously.
I am Praying for him.
Sorry Pete, I’m not who you mean.
not ‘sure’ that is
Kit:
A quick trip to Wiki suggests you may have a point:
” The series was revamped in 2001 [1] by the daughters of Rona Munro and released by publishers StarKids with Janet and John given a totally new appearance. The new series of 33 books featured modern themes, the inclusion of ethnic minority characters and contemporary styles of dress”
The Patios Puritan will not be happy…
kitalba
07:46 on 21 December, 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm481NixqcI
apologies if you dinnae know this man already, I genuinely thought you did
ffs he really is the LIFE and Soul of the PARTY.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V07-4glSrJ0
To get this to you before Christmas, I skipped a few chapters but I’m sure BT, or Doc is Neil Lennon, would forward you a copy of the book in pdf format if you wanted a copy, or e-mail me and I’ll send you a copy.I’d post the link if I could remember where I put it.
~ MICHAEL COLLINS’ OWN STORY ~
CHAPTER XXI
WHAT THE TREATY MEANS A SYMPOSIUM
IN an endeavour to ascertain the considered opinions of representative Irish men and women Treaty proponents and Treaty opponents equally as to Ireland’s chance of freedom under existing circumstances, I propounded to Irish leaders of outstanding importance the following question :
” Under the terms of the Treaty, what does the future hold in store for Ireland ? ”
In due course I received the following written answers :
FROM SEAN MCKEON
[Major-General McKeon, T.D., immortalised as ” the Blacksmith of Ballinalee,” fought more successful battles against the Black and Tans than any other leader of the I.R.A., and, since the murder of Michael Collins, is today the most popular hero in Ireland.]
” Although I am on record as an advocate of accepting the Treaty, I want it thoroughly understood that, like every other member of my party, I am an Irish Republican. Anything less than full independence will never completely satisfy any Irishman. But with this much said, I am willing to discuss Ireland’s future under the Treaty.
” There are possibilities under the terms of the Treaty of tremendous advantage to Ireland. It gives us far more than many of us ever dared hope could be won in our lifetime. It gives us far more than we ever could have won by force of arms alone so long as our strength remained relatively negligible as compared with England’s armed power. It does not give us all we want ; all we are determined one day to have, all that is ours by right. But it does give us a far better chance than Ireland has ever known before to achieve our ultimate ideal.
” Not unnaturally, I am inclined to view the purely political phase of the present situation through the eyes of a soldier. Soldiering is my profession. Politics is not. Conferences appeal to me not at all. Explorations of avenues that may lead to agreement seem to me waste of time when the explorers, metaphorically speaking, are more intent on conducting the expedition into a morass than to success.
” A general in the field realises that a war is not won in a single battle. Only a counsel of desperation risks disaster in one final offensive. Day by day minor gains are consolidated, minor losses accepted. The final goal decisive victory is none the less ever uppermost in mind. But the high command recognise it can be won only by patient acceptance of gains or reverses as mere incidents in the general scheme.
” The most strenuous of the opponents of the Treaty base their arguments on the assumption that all Ireland has to do is flout England and thus gain complete independence on the spot. They forget that Ireland’s Declaration of Independence was published to the world in 1916 and now, after six years, has yet to be recognised by any government in the world. They forget that for most of this period British armed forces were in practical control of all Ireland. Repudiation of the Treaty by Dail Eireann now accompanied by a reaffirmation of the Republic would surely result in a return to the conditions under which Ireland lived during the Reign of Terror. Those of us whose duty it is to protect our people will not shirk that duty if it is imposed upon us but it must be the people who impose it upon us if that be their will. And I for one do not believe it is.
” The future of Ireland under the Treaty is a brighter future than any living or dead Irishman ever knew ; the future of Ireland if the Treaty be turned down is hopeless. Hopeless, at least, in so far as existing generations are concerned. For who doubts that England, given what the world would consider ample justification, would once again, and more eagerly than ever, send her armed forces back amongst us this time to make our subjugation more complete than ever ?
(Signed) ” SEAN McKEON.”
FROM CATHAL BRUGHA
[Mr. Brugha, T.D., formerly Minister of Defence under De Valera’s Presidency of Dail Eireann, killed during the July rebellion, was an uncompromising Republican whose public utterances proved him an ardent advocate of the use of force.]
” During the Dail debate on the Articles of Agreement President de Valera said he was against the pact because, amongst other reasons, he believed it would not bring peace. That same view was expressed by other deputies. The correctness of their judgement is being brought home to us every day.
” The most ominous proof of it was the I.R.A. Convention held Sunday, March 26. That Convention represented over 80 per cent, of the Republican army. One division alone, which stands solidly behind the Republic, has 38,000 men on its roll. The Convention elected an executive to control the army in future. These men had all taken an oath of allegiance to the Republic and to Dail Eireann as the Government of the Republic. Even when the majority of An Dail had approved of the alleged Treaty the army held
fast.
” When the new Government formed by the Treaty party was elected, the President gave an undertaking that the Republic would be maintained until the electorate got an opportunity of expressing its opinion on the Treaty. The new Minister for Defence promised the Dail that the army would continue as the army of the Republic until the people had spoken. Both those undertakings were basely broken. The Provisional Government was set up and allowed to supplant An Dail. Its chairman and two of his alleged ministers publicly repudiated the supremacy of An Dail at one of its sittings. They denied that they were in any way responsible to it. They did this in the presence of President Griffith without any remonstrance from him.
” In regard to the promise given by the new Minister for Defence, instead of adhering to it, he allowed the army to be made use of to build up an army for this usurping Provisional Government. The net result of this double-dealing was the calling together of the I.R.A. Convention and the election of an independent executive.
” The army is determined to maintain the existing Republic. Whoever else may have been play-acting when they took the oath of allegiance to the Republic, it is quite evident that those men were not. Upon them principally has been the burden of guarding the Republic against its enemies during the time of stress. How well they played their part the world already knows. The world may hear from them again when people who did nothing to establish the Republic or to maintain it attempt to give it away.
“It is almost incredible that any responsible person who has been in touch with things should be so misled as to believe that those men could be seduced from their allegiance so simply.
” What we are now asked to do is to surrender the sovereignty of the Irish people, to yield at last to our oppressors and admit ourselves their subjects. Why, the weakest day Ireland ever saw she never did that. There was always a body of opinion in Ireland that denied England’s right to interfere in Irish affairs. They were with us in every generation. Whenever they considered themselves strong enough they went out in arms against the usurper. Though beaten in the field they never bent the knee. That tradition has been carried on, and no amount of dragooning could break it. The prison-cell, the hangman’s rope and the firing-squad all have failed.
” So tenacious is the fibre of which Irishmen are made that the greater the persecution, the stronger became the spirit of resistance. It is conceivable, though unlikely, that the threat of war might stampede the Irish people into voting in favour of the Treaty without realising what it involves. It is possible that the anti-Republicans, aided by the pro-British Press, could so confuse the issue that a majority of the present out-of-date register might accept the Free State.
” The signatories to the Treaty do not agree on what it means. One of them says it gives us freedom. Another says it gives us freedom to achieve freedom. We know it gives us neither. Between us all it would be no wonder if the electorate were befogged. But even if guile succeeded, sooner or later the struggle would begin again when the people found out that they were deceived. It is almost certain that this would occur in our own time.
” We are better organised now militarily than ever we were in modern times. We are also better armed. Above all, the traditional hope of finally expelling the invader that has always lived in the hearts of the Irish race is now stronger and more widespread than ever. That yearning for complete nationhood has now become an overmastering desire. People hitherto apathetic had become infused with this enthusiasm before the Treaty was signed. The past four years have not gone for nothing. Though we did not actually drive out the tyrant, we made him impotent. Those who have tasted the delicious wine of freedom will not be put off with a draught of inferior quality. The Free Stater who thinks otherwise is living in a fool’s
paradise.
(Signed} ” CATHAL BRUGHA.”
FROM PROF. EOIN MACNEILL
[Professor MacNeill, T.D., formerly speaker of Dail Eireann and one of its most erudite members, was President and Chief-of-Staff of the Irish Volunteers at the time of the Easter Week rising in 1916 ; for his Sinn Fein activities he was sentenced to penal servitude for life.]
” The Anglo-Irish Treaty of December, 1921, is an agreement between two nation-states, Ireland and Britain, to enter into a free partnership. This partnership includes also Canada, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand.
For the present, the consent of the non-signatory states is presumed, but the presumption does not imply an admission that the British Government can bind any of these states without their express consent, and an express agreement between Ireland and the non-signatory states will doubtless follow in due course.
” The Treaty does not regulate the internal political status of Ireland. It regulates by agreement the form of the partnership between the nation-state Ireland and the other nation-states. The essence of the Treaty is that it guarantees no less freedom and sovereignty to Ireland within her natural territorial bounds than the freedom and sovereignty not as recorded in any British statute, but as actually enjoyed and exercised belonging to the other states, Canada being named as an example. This, of course, means the full freedom and sovereignty exercised by any of the states, since it is certain that Canada would not admit restrictions not imposed on a partner state.
” Any claim of British suzerainty now or hereafter set up as against Ireland would imply a similar claim as against Canada. Britain, on the other hand, claims certain facilities for defence as necessary to her safety, and Ireland, without adopting the reasons on which this claim is based, concedes certain facilities. Ireland, of course, remains entitled to guard against any use of these facilities to her detriment or danger.
” Under the Treaty, then, Ireland can and will insist on holding as partner the maximum status as it exists in practice, not in British law, of the other states. Her status must be maximum from the outset because, as Mr. Winston Churchill has acknowledged, she comes into the partnership not as a colonial offshoot but as ‘ a mother country.’ It is necessary to be clear on this, for the British Press in general indulges in the notion that Britain is endowing Ireland with powers, and the attitude of the British Ministry since the signing of the Treaty can be interpreted in some respects as being afflicted with the same notion.
” So far as Ireland is concerned, the Treaty requires no statute or resolution of the British legislature to give it effect, nor can any statute or resolution of that legislature invalidate or modify the Treaty. Britain can break the agreement ; she cannot change it, except as she made it, that is, jointly with Ireland. The only force of British legislation in regard to the Treaty is to legalise it from the purely British standpoint not to legalise it for Ireland.
” It will soon be seen that the existence of future good relations between Britain and Ireland will have for its essential condition the absolute cessation of all manner of interference by the British Government or by British political agencies hi the domestic affairs of Ireland. Ireland will not seek to interfere in British affairs. There is, however, a certain aristocratic and semi aristocratic element which has family connections and property connections in both countries and plenty of leisure to be meddlesome, and this element constitutes a danger to be watched.
” Above all, there is the situation which the British Government and British political agencies have deliberately created in Ulster. There, simultaneously with the Black and Tan war against Ireland generally, a campaign of sectarian violence was let loose two years ago. In the same year a British statute divided Ireland into two separate administrative, legislative and judicial areas. There was no Irish demand, in or out of Ulster, for this division. It was a purely British governmental device directed against the peace and progress of Ireland. This policy cannot be maintained without violating the essence of the Treaty ; yet certain British ministers seem to think that we do not understand it.
” Having barely mentioned certain points which as yet do not appear to have penetrated the public intelligence of our neighbours many of whom still think they own us by divine right let me say that I am confident that we, on our part, if we act with a single purpose for the good of Ireland, can surmount every surviving difficulty and make Ireland as free as any other nation. We are young, vigourous, resourceful, and, in spite of all the past, we are one of the few nations of Europe that are solvent. The Black and Tan war and its Ulster accompaniment have raised the temperature and produced some fever, but we are organically sound and, as a people, we mean to have a reign of justice.
(Signed) ” EOIN MACNEILL.”
FROM SEAN MACENTEE
[Mr. MacEntee is a native of Belfast and, until his defeat in the summer elections, one of the younger members of Dail Eireann, most active in support of De Valera.]
” Two things stand out in the Treaty : first, that Ire- land, under threat of war, is compelled to forego her right to independence ; of our natural right, the latter a violation of our territory.
” Liberty is ‘ the inalienable right ‘ of the Irish as of all other peoples, and Ireland’s territorial integrity is as truly essential to Ireland’s national existence as was the preservation of the Federal Union to America under Lincoln. America waged wars to secure her liberties and to preserve that Union ; Ireland in the same just cause will fight to the end. Under the Treaty, therefore, Ireland can never be at peace, but must be at war.
” The Treaty will not bring peace to Ireland’; neither will it bring prosperity. Ireland cannot be prosperous while Ireland is not free, for all that is best in the country of intellect and of character will address itself to the struggle for liberty. All that is material will be sacrificed to that great spiritual passion the phenomenon of ages will be repeated Irish youth growing to manhood will have but one thought, not to become rich, but to become free. All its energy, all its courage, all its capacity will be devoted to that ideal. And with all this we shall have the same political instability, the same civil turmoil ; these are everywhere the invariable concomitants of injustice and oppression, and these are essentially destructive of material prosperity.
” Based upon partition, the Treaty will perpetuate disunion. Its real object is to establish and consolidate in North-Eastern Ireland an English settlement which England plans shall be the inveterate and relentless enemy of the Irish nation. England feels herself assured of the loyalty of that settlement as she is assured of the loyalty, say, of Scotland. There is no power, no authority she may concede to the Irish Free State that she will not give more unreservedly and more freely to Northern Ireland. By such a policy she hopes to make the breach which she has forced between North and South wider and deeper. She knows Northern Ireland as established under the Treaty will strive to become wholly English, while Southern Ireland strives to become wholly Irish. So that in a little time she calculates there will be in Ireland two peoples speaking different languages, holding different religions, following different political ideals.
” By her North-Eastern settlement and not by an oath of allegiance England hopes to hold Ireland for the British Empire. Northern Ireland, as established by the Treaty, is to be her new Gibraltar, a Gibraltar which, if the Treaty were to stand, would reduce Ireland for ever to political impotency and paralysis.
” The Treaty, in short, makes Ireland neither a free country nor a British Dominion, but a sort of hybrid among states, a mule among nations impotent and abject, condemned to servitude and decay. It will not stand, however ; for those who made Ireland great, the men who fought and the women who suffered, stand against it. They still stand true to the Irish Republic. The authority, legitimacy and territorial integrity of that Republic will yet be vindicated by this living generation, so that its flag, floating over every inch of Irish soil, shall secure the loyalty and homage of all who claim Ireland for their home. But when this is done, it shall be done, not by means of, but in spite of, the Treaty.
(Signed) ” SEAN MACENTEE.”
FROM ERNEST BLYTHE
[Mr. Blythe, T.D., is Minister of Economics in Dail Eireann and one of its most brilliant members, who has always been a great admirer of Griffith’s Sinn Fein policy although an Ulster man and a Protestant.]
” I believe the people who think that national effort in future is likely to concentrate itself along the lines of Republican agitation and revolutionary action are entirely mistaken. The Treaty gives, for the present, ample scope for national growth and reconstruction. The mind of the country will be given chiefly to economic and cultural development.
” The left wing in the year after next will not be constituted of the Republican doctrinaires, but of the advanced workers for a revival of the Irish language and of the advocates of tariff and banking reform. In the new situation it will be recognised that the nation’s ‘ soul ‘ is to be saved no longer by the maintenance of a political effervescence, but by preserving and spreading the use of the historic languages of the Gael. When Irish has again been made common speech throughout the country, all thought will be given a distinctively Irish tinge and objective ; Irish brains shall, at last, pay a toll of service to Ireland instead of going entirely to build up the culture and literature of other countries.
” On the material side we shall have attention turned not to the expulsion of British maintenance parties from the few coastal posts they will hold, but to the development of industries, to the utilisation of our peat and mineral deposits and waterpower, and to the opening up of direct trade relations with the many countries with which our lines of communication at present run through Liverpool or London. There are abundant proofs that the fostering care of a national government will be able to transform the economic condition of Ireland. The country is at present very backward industrially. To bring it to the point at which it ought to be will be a big task. When the back of that task has been broken, when the future of the Irish language has been unmistakably assured, then only will doctrinaire Republicanism really come to the forefront again.
(Signed) “ERNEST BLYTHE.”
FROM COUNTESS MARKIEVICZ
[Constance Georgina Markievicz, T.D., was sentenced to death by court-martial for having commanded the insurgents in the Royal College of Surgeons during the Easter Week rising in Dublin, but was later released in the general amnesty. Her hatred of England is the one dominating passion of her life.]
” Your question demands a prophecy, and at most times there is a risk in hazarding an opinion as to future events ; but in this case I do not hesitate to stake any reputation that I may have by giving as my honest and thought out opinion that under the Treaty the future holds little but trouble for Ireland.
” A friendship or agreement between two persons, parties or nations must be based on a mutual understanding.
The oath which it includes is translated as meaning one thing by Mr. Griffith, Mr. Collins and their followers when explaining it to the Irish people, while the meaning given to it by Mr. Lloyd George and his followers is the direct contradiction.
” Mr. Griffith said, speaking openly before the assembly of Dail Eireann :
‘ It is an oath, I say, that any Irishman could take with honour, as he pledges his allegiance to the Free State and faithfulness, after, to the head of the British Commonwealth of Nations.
” Mr. Collins said : ‘ . . . And we have obtained . . . a compromise on allegiance not ideal, but which enables us to pledge our true faith and allegiance only to our own Saorstat, and declares fidelity to the Crown merely in its capacity as the link between the two nations.’
” Their followers are now declaring quite openly that this oath binds them to do nothing more than to try the Free State, and make use of it to obtain the Republic ; and that they would be willing to take a fresh oath for every gun they could procure by so doing and much more on the same lines.
” So much for the pro-Treatyites. Now turn to their English friends speaking in defence of the Treaty in the English House of Commons. The most definite statement among many of the same kind was made by Sir Worthington Evans, December 15, 1921 :
” ‘ … Part of the terms of the settlement will be that the members who go to serve in that Free State Parliament will have to swear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution as passed by the House of Commons. How is it possible to say that within the terms of that oath they set up a Republic and still maintain their oath ? ‘
” He further stated : ‘ . . . Anson’s description of the Oath of Allegiance is that it was a declaration of fidelity to the Throne, so that in this oath we have got this : we have got an oath of allegiance in the declaration of fidelity : “I will be faithful to His Majesty King George V., and his heirs and successors by law ” and we have got something in addition, a declaration of fidelity to the Constitution of the Irish Free State, and in further addition we have the declaration of fidelity to the Empire itself.’
” Whether our envoys were themselves tricked or whether they agreed to trick the Irish people is the obvious question that Irish people are asking Coady. Whichever way the question is answered, it will not help these men to keep the confidence of the Irish people, and unless they have the confidence and the support of the people they will be powerless to govern efficiently. Nor can this Treaty based on misunderstanding bring anything but dissension between the two nations.
” Then there is the question of the Northern Pale deliberately set up by the British Cabinet in anticipation of the South becoming unanimously separatist. The situation there becomes daily worse. Mr. Collins called off the Belfast boycott. If he did so to propitiate Sir James Craig it would appear from the Press that he failed. Then, too, Mr. Lloyd George seems to interpret this Treaty so as to secure power to himself to postpone the Boundary Commission. This gives the Irish people much cause for thought and reason for suspicion, both of the sincerity of Mr. Lloyd George and of the capacity of Mr. Collins and his advisers.
” Next comes the question of the formation of the Constitution. Mr. Griffith and Mr. Collins believe that looseness of the Treaty can be made use of by them. Mr. Collins makes the amazing announcement that ‘ we make our own decision, and it is we who decide how we are to deal with Mr. Lloyd George.’ Mr. Griffith even went so far as to pledge himself openly to the Southern Unionists to give them their ‘ full share of representation in the First Chamber of the Irish Parliament, and as to the Upper Chamber, we will consult them on its constitution, and undertake that then interests will be duly represented.’
” Labour has already expressed itself on this pronouncement of Mr. Griffith’s, and labour is a power in Ireland Coady. The people, too, are suspicious.
” These are only a few of the points that the people of Ireland are pondering over today, and these are the questions that are daily being asked with more and more insistence :
” Have the signatories been fooled again in the old way and by the old enemy, and will the result of all these negotiations be :
” 1. The establishment of a new English Pale on the old lines, and
“2. The division of the rest of Ireland into two parties also on the old lines which hi the past gave us the ‘Queens,’ O’Neills, O’Reillys, etc., i.e., those who were guarding the English interests in Ireland and who derived their power from the English King and the forces behind him and the Irish rebels who derived their powers from the will and love of the Irish people.
” These rebels will be there and stand for an independent Ireland till that day when nationality has ceased to be an inspiration ; when language is dead and our history forgotten ; when Irish idealism has been lost in British materialism, and we a smug British province.
” That day will never come. Therefore I see naught but trouble in front of us till our national aspirations are achieved by the establishment and recognition of the Irish Republic.
(Signed] ” CONSTANCE MARKIEVICZ.”
FROM WILLIAM ROACHE
[Liam de Roiste, T.D., successor in Dail Eireann of William O’Brien for Cork City, has worked for years for the revival of Irish industries ; it was he who induced Henry Ford to establish a factory in Cork, and put through a scheme whereby the Moore MacCormack Steamship Company’s liners ply direct between Cork and New York.]
” Unless divinely inspired, prophecy is untrustworthy. No one can say dogmatically what the future holds in store for Ireland or for any other country. One can only express an opinion as to what it should hold, granted certain premises.
” Ireland, owing to the blighting influence of foreign rule, is a nation of arrested development, intellectually, nationally, socially, politically, economically. Now that the Irish people have secured power in their own hands what should be expected is almost immediate development in the spheres of activity indicated. For such development, however, order and at least comparative peace are essential.
” Intellectually the Irish nation can develop to perfection only on the basis of its ancient civilisation and culture which are enshrined, as it were, in the native language. Already, owing to the freedom secured under the Treaty and the taking over of the educational systems of the country by the Irish authorities, a gigantic fillip has been given to the study of the Irish language and its literature. Granted orderly development, so far as one can see, this intellectual progress, drawing inspiration from purely native ideals, is likely to be maintained. The world will, therefore, be presented with the spectacle of an ancient civilisation reanimated a civilisation that has much in it from which the world may learn.
” The sense of national distinctiveness is very strong indeed in Ireland. It was fostered rather than checked by the repressive laws of the English. National feeling is often intolerant. That intolerance is based upon ignorance or is due to conditions where the national feeling must continually show itself in protest. With a development of education in Ireland and freedom from restrictions of all national feelings it may be anticipated that the expression of the national distinctiveness of the Irish nation will be in the sphere of culture rather than in the sphere of politics.
” Socially and politically it may be expected that the development in Ireland will be towards democratic control of all activities, that there will be few, if any, privileged classes, that there will be a more just distribution of wealth and power than is found in other countries, and that there will ultimately be great individual liberty.
” While not sternly Republican in the doctrinaire sense of a form of government, the Irish people of the present day are essentially a democratic people. So far as one can judge, there is no special regard for men of wealth as such, and none for men of title. There is regard for worth and for service to the community. The traditional struggle for Ireland has been simply to get power into the hands of the people of the country and out of the hands of select coteries and classes set up by the British. The political form in which that power may express itself has varied during the centuries in the minds of the people, and even now no one political form commands universal assent ; except that the form conceived of must be democratic, one through which the will of the people can best express itself.
” The whole economic structure of Ireland needs re- moulding, and under the Treaty terms this remoulding is at last possible. Ireland having full fiscal and economic freedom is at liberty to rebuild its industries, trade and commerce, to adjust agrarian grievances, to plant the people on the soil and to solve the problem of emigration. The outstanding economic factor in Ireland for the past 76 years has been the abnormal emigration of the young people of the country. No remedy has been possible during this period. The problem can now be solved in a manner that should ensure the increase of a healthy, industrious and virile people.
” As I view the position, the Treaty arrangement is a step, a big step, in the onward progress of the Irish nation. The Land Acts were steps ; technical, agricultural and university education were steps ; the establishment of local government was a step ; the extension of the franchise was a step all tending to greater and greater strength, to more and more liberty. The Irish language movement and the cultural Sinn Fein movement marked these steps, and the rising-out of 1916 roused the spirit of the people for the assertion of sovereign independence. With the increase of intellectual and material strength which is possible under the Treaty terms the progress of the Irish nation to fuller freedom and fuller development should be rapid.
” Unfortunately, however, the prospect is marred by the spectre of fratricidal strife. If fratricidal strife should eventuate, there is no prospect but defeat and disaster for the Irish nation in this generation.
(Signed) ” LIAM DE ROISTE.”
FROM PROF. W. F. P. STOCKLEY
[Professor Stockley, T.D., is one of the pacifist members of the Dail who, nevertheless, espouses the Republican cause.]
” Nothing is settled until it is settled right. The right settling of this world is not possible. But some right settling is.
” The English Daily Mail, publishing whole-sheet pictures of the Kaiser as our ally-to-be in the Boer War, declared that that holy war was ‘ a war to end war and make the world safe for decent men.’ A later war was camouflaged by like aspirations. Countries, small and great, were now to live their own lives, resolve their own difficulties. The resulting peace without principle has plentifully praised past domestic resolving of majority-minority strifes, as in the infant United States. But it has not been the instrument of a yet smaller minority being left in Ireland to understand itself and the world, and to calm down in that island geographically and historically one and indivisible. Any single passing from principles possible of application makes this a cry of peace where there is no peace and no right settling.
” The late Pope Benedict had principles for a peacemaking. Ex-President Wilson embodied such in his abandoned claims. And the rising of heart, the will to act on the part of millions in their response to such higher practicality was proof of some possible doing. Indeed, never was there a better chance of peace between England and Ireland than when could have been applied between them this golden rule of do as done by. There never was a surer opportunity of getting rid of irritation by minding one’s own business, not to say of mutual goodwill, or even, as far as propriety and decency demanded, of forgive and forget.
” ‘ The right and the wise thing for England to do is to consent freely to the establishment of an Irish Republic unconditionally. I make that proposal because I want to see a true and final settlement of the differences between my country and England.’ (Prof. Eoin MacNeill, English Review, Sept., 1917.)
” But England, powerful by arms, not less powerful by ruling when not pretending to rule as over rajahs, maharajahs, and khedives would not change. The whole world was filled with portraits of her as willing to let Ireland manage things Irish if only the Irish people would agree among themselves. Such was the portrait published in Washington’s day also, of fond Mother England clasping to her breast her fractious colonial child to whom no soothing thing good for it was refused.
” What has England done but refuse reality, keep up suspicions, and make the future unsure ? In victims the hostile mind continues. Therefore out of world unreality and out of unreality towards Ireland there will come no lasting peace. From pretence will come resentment and also corruption, and all that makes for a revolt of the gallant and the wise
” Further, the circumstances of the signing of this so-called Treaty are circumstances shameful in unreality. As to Washington and Franklin and Adams, so to the Irish envoy devastation of the resisting weak country was threatened immediate and terrible war. A Treaty ! And a Treaty freely made ! And between equal nations ! Can wilder falsehoods further go ? Does any man, respecting common sense, think that on such pretence will be based a rock-built refuge for a nation, for two nations ?
” (And now truly the English in the transaction, and most of the Irish in it, give up their pretences that they feared war or that war was intended. That was only a plea for a panic, as Washington dubbed the like a working on nerves dreading responsibility for re-exposing Ireland to assassins rather than warriors. John Bull, in its issue of November 26, 1921, says, ‘ We do not want a war in Ireland, and we could not afford one if we did. . . . Better blot such a possibility out of the account. If Sinn Feiners will not come to terms they should be released from the Empire and left to find their own salvation.’)
” Lastly, the unreality by this Treaty’s own terms of pretending that Ireland is a Free State ! Equal with England ! England, therefore, ‘ free ‘ when France has cut off Yorkshire and Lincoln, garrisoned them, and paid those English counties to serve France ; when France is guaranteed rights to cover whole England with all machinery of war, if France’s relations are anywhere ‘ strained ‘ ; when France holds in perpetuity the English ports of Hull, Liverpool, Portsmouth, Bristol ! What need further ? Is that a free England an England having to swear, besides, fealty to France ? Would the calling such an England ‘ free’ settle anything even if that English dog, with collar and chains, were fed fat with scraps from his French master’s table ? Who could have faith in a treaty calling unfree England free ? Who could have faith in the future of a treaty that shuts men’s eyes from the real Ireland, that Ireland that is and that will be, that is sure to be troubled, and sure in some measure to trouble both America and the world until the reality of her national life is acknowledged and she contribute even in her comparative weakness to a more settled world, because, in this one matter, a world settled right.
(Signed) ” W. F. P. STOCKLEY.”
FROM WILLIAM SEARS
[Mr. Sears, T.D., member of Dail Eireann for Sligo, is the most influential provincial newspaper proprietor in Ireland.]
” Seldom in history has a nation had such an opportunity as the Treaty gives to Ireland. It is, of course, not a new thing that a nation has suddenly burst its bonds and regained complete control of its affairs. But few people possess a land of such real and potential wealth as ours or occupy such a magnificent geographical position to make the most of that wealth.
” Imagine what possibilities there are for our existing industries, long discouraged and obstructed, when they can now count upon that driving force and fostering care that a native government can supply. Irish genius, that in the past was not permitted to direct Irish effort, can now bend itself unfettered to the task. And under the Treaty we have won the necessary fiscal freedom to make the most of our chance.
” Regarding foreign goods, we can open or close our ports to them just as we wish. The untapped resources of Ireland, long sealed up by the stranger, are in themselves a vast field for Irish enterprise and energy, even if our population were three times what it is at present.
” Then our country, fresh and vigourous, enters upon the international stage at a time when the rest of Europe bends under crushing debts and is disorganised and discouraged to the point of despair. In our people, although they have come through a terrible time, the industrial spirit and courage is equal to that of the youngest nation on the globe. It faces the future not merely with confidence, but with eagerness.
” There may be drawbacks to the Treaty from the idealist point of view ; there are none from the material. The obstacles to complete freedom that still remain can daunt only the faint-hearted The nation that frustrated the greatest military power in Europe, and won its way to the present position, cannot humanly be prevented from reaching the final stage save by some act of criminal folly on its own part.
” But perhaps it is not in the material field the Ireland of the future will make its greatest mark. The kindly neighbourliness of the Irish character, as is evidenced in the success of the co-operative movement, offered a better field for social reform than is elsewhere found. When the harsh reactions from the war have passed away, Ireland should furnish interesting headlines in social evolution, perhaps new departures the world may find of value. And from even higher fields she may garner a worthy crop, for the nation that has come through the fires of centuries of persecution must be handicapped with a little less of the world’s dross than others.
” The purging, surely, was not all in vain, and perhaps that spiritual bent in the race that in the past earned for our island a glorious title may manifest itself again and add lustre once more to the ‘ Isle of Destiny.’ We are encouraged to hope for the best when we recollect that the language that foreign tyranny set aside is now to be taken, as it were, from cold storage and to furnish to the nation a fresh and unfailing source of mental and spiritual energy and inspiration.
(Signed) ” WILLIAM SEARS.”
FROM H. J. BOLAND
[Mr. Boland, who died as the result of wounds received while resisting arrest by Free State troops, spent almost all of the time, from 1916 to the signing of the Treaty, in the United States, where he was the official representative of the Irish Republic, engaged in raising funds.]
” The future of Ireland under the Treaty is a very difficult subject to discuss. I prefer to deal with the immediate present. Ireland under the Treaty is now rent asunder and I cannot see any grounds for hope unless the Treatyites explicitly assert in the constitution of the Free State :
“1. That the nation is one and indivisible.
“2. That all authority in Ireland is derived from the people of Ireland, and
“3. That the oath of allegiance and the Governor General must be omitted from the Treaty.
” A constitution which will not debar those who would have Ireland free from giving constitutional expression in an Irish Parliament to the Republican ideal would, I think, be acceptable to the Republicans. But it must be understood that England forced the plenipotentiaries to sign under the threat of ‘ immediate and terrible war.’ Of all England’s abominable crimes against Ireland this latest is, to my mind, the most revolting.
” There are two shades of political thought represented in those who favour the Articles of Agreement signed in London. One, led by Mr. Arthur Griffith, asserts that the agreement gives Ireland essential liberty and is quite prepared to accept the arrangement in complete satisfaction of Ireland’s claims or, in the words of Mr. Griffith, to ‘ march into the British Empire with our heads up ‘ and settle down, a contented Dominion of the Empire, with the hope that some day the ultra-Imperialists of the Six Counties called Ulster will come into the Imperial Free State.
“It is to be regretted that Mr. Griffith has taken this course, a course which is the very negation of all that for which he has given’ his life’s work. Mr. Griffith, by his teachings of the past thirty years, is responsible to a great extent for the intense revival of Irish nationalism which found its expression in the Republic.
” The other group, led by Mr. Michael Collins, claims that the Treaty gives Ireland ‘ freedom to achieve freedom.’ Get the British out of Ireland, build up the country, and in ten or twenty years Ireland will be in a better position to fight England and so establish the Republic.’ This plea has secured many adherents to the Treaty men who heretofore were considered implacable in their desire for the complete independence of Ireland. Indeed, were it not for the fact that Mr. Collins signed them, the Articles of Agreement would have received very short shrift in Dail Eireann.
” The Republican point of view expressed by De Valera and supported by the young men of the Irish Republican Army and by all those who would have Ireland as free as America, or as England, is a simple one, based on the fundamental right of the Irish nation to the undictated control of its own affairs, owing allegiance to no power on earth save the sovereign people of Ireland, prepared to stand on the fundamental rock of right, refusing to give a democratic title to the British King in Ireland, refusing to march into the Empire with heads up, as Mr. Griffith invites, or to march in with hands up for ten years or more, as Mr. Collins would have it. Of the two policies that of the ‘ heads up ‘ is the more honourable.
” Republicans argue that once the Irish nation sanctions this Treaty and ratifies it in the ballot-box, the honour of the nation is committed, and by so doing Ireland wills her own national death. The sanctity of treaties is invoked against Mr. Collins’ arguments. It is pointed out that entering the Empire gives the lie to all that for which countless generations of Irishmen have contended. All the dead generations are fighting on the side of those who would maintain the independence of Ireland. and I am satisfied that this point of view will win in the coming election.
” Now that the army of the Republic has cut itself off from those who would accept the agreement, the future of Ireland under the Treaty is very doubtful. It remains to be seen whether Messrs. Collins and Griffith will persevere in their efforts to force the Free State against the Irish Republican Army opposition. If they so persist, then I look for serious trouble in Ireland. If, on the other hand, they tell the British that they cannot ‘ deliver the goods. I feel sure that a just peace can be negotiated between
England and Ireland. Of one thing I am certain : this so-called Treaty will not bring peace to Ireland or to England, for Ireland unfree will never be at peace. The manhood of Ireland is in revolt against this agreement, signed, as it was, with a pistol at the heads of the delegates. In the words of Franklin, ‘ Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a life safety deserve neither safety nor liberty ‘ and history proves that Ireland will never submit to the status of a dismembered Dominion of an Empire with which she has been at war for centuries.
(Signed) ” HARRY BOLAND.”
FROM DAN McCarthy
[Mr. McCarthy, T.D., is the whip of the Treaty party, and generally recognised in Irish political circles as the most efficient organiser in the country.]
” The Ireland of the future under the terms of the Treaty will be an Ireland governed by Irishmen for the common good of Irishmen. In this way we can develop our own civilisation without being subjected to, and hampered by, the interference of the foreign invader.
” Dublin Castle the symbol of English authority in this country for seven hundred years is in Irish hands for the first time in history. Irishmen the world over know what Dublin Castle stood for. From its inception it was meant for a government of corruption’s, and all the time its rulers aimed at the extermination of the Irish people.
” For centuries it has been the ideal and aim of Irishmen to loosen the chains by which Dublin Castle bound the people of Ireland, and this at last is achieved under the Treaty.
” By the Treaty we can develop Ireland in an Irish way. No longer fettered by English imperialistic aims, we can make our land fit for Irishmen to live in. England saw to it that education in Ireland was totally unsuitable to the people. We can change all that ; we can restore the Irish language to be the language of our people ; we can develop our agricultural districts ; we can open up our mines, and find employment for our people, so that no longer will it be necessary for the sons and daughters of Erin to leave their native shores to earn a living in the land of the foreigner.
” Under English rule we have been subjected to overtaxation which crippled and ruined our industries ; our shipping all disappeared and Ireland became the slave of her English master. The Treaty gives us power to levy our own taxation without outside interference.
” The future holds bright things for the Irish people. With an Irish Government replacing the rule of the foreigner by the rule of the plain people of Ireland, I can see in the near future a prosperous and well-contented country. Our work now is to build up the nation, and the vast majority of Irishmen are taking up that work with a pride and a zest unequalled.
I ” The Treaty gives us the means of attaining our complete freedom. Irish soldiers are replacing the Britisher in our streets and in the barracks throughout the country. The army of the Free State will be used to defend Ireland’s rights ; they will see that nothing that she has gained is taken from her. The soldiers which the Irish people will see in Ireland will be green-clad boys of Ireland the token of her freedom not the khaki-clad soldiers of Britain, the symbol of Ireland’s subjection.
” Under the Free State the Irish people will work out their own salvation and their destiny as glorious as the people of America worked out their fate under the Federal Constitution.
(Signed) ” DAN McCarthy.”
FROM JOSEPH MACDONAGH
[Mr. MacDonagh, T.D., is a brother of Thomas MacDonagh, one of the leaders of the 1916 Rebellion, who was executed by the British after the Easter Week rising.]
” There are many arguments against the Treaty. The principal ones are :
” I. The Irish Republican Army (not the ‘ Free State ‘ Army, with headquarters at Beggars Bush), which has renounced its allegiance to Dail Eireann since that body handed over its powers to the Provisional Government and ceased to function as the Government of the Irish Republic.
“2. All the men and women killed or murdered by the British during the last six years gave their lives for an Irish Republic, and all the sophistries of the pro-Treaty party are unable to hide the fact that the proposed pact is a betrayal of the dead who died for Ireland.
” 3. If the Treaty is accepted by the people, Ireland will assume a share of the British war debt, and will require such an army to prevent the young men of Ireland from re-establishing the Republic that taxation will become in-
tolerable and make a trade or industrial revival impossible.
” 4. The partition of Ireland is admitted for the first time by people claiming to be Irish Nationalists.
” The above four arguments show how impossible it is to expect a settlement on the lines of the Treaty. The first argument the Irish Republican Army, which still remains faithful to its oath of allegiance to the Irish Republic will not allow that Republic which was proclaimed by Pearse and his colleagues, less than 1,000 men, mostly unarmed, to be disestablished while it can count on upwards of 50,000 men mostly armed and well used to fighting. The establishment of the ‘ Free State ‘ means the disbandment of the Irish Republican Army by force, and that means civil war.
” The second argument will make it certain that even if the ‘ Free State ‘ be now established, the patriotic youth of every coming generation in Ireland will try by force of arms to re-establish the Republic for which the heroes from 1916 to 1922 died. That will mean civil war.
” The third argument shows that Ireland, which should be prosperous, must remain poor in order that it may be made safe for the British Empire. Those people who are now clamouring for peace, thinking it is the forerunner of prosperity, will soon realise that the Treaty means national decay.
” Lord Birkenhead may congratulate his colleague on having set the Irish fighting ; Mr. Churchill on the great achievement of British statesmanship, and on the chance of making ‘ Irish civilisation a by-word throughout the world ‘ ; Mr. Griffith on having achieved freedom for Ireland and ended the fight of seven hundred and fifty years ; and Mr. Collins on having obtained the freedom to achieve freedom. But the I.R.A. are, above all, realists. They realise that the seven hundred and fifty years’ fight is not yet ended and that the Treaty does not give even freedom to achieve freedom. They are aware of the fact that they possess an instrument which, if used, renders the establishment of the ‘ Free State ‘ and the disestablishment of the Irish Republic impossible. They mean to use that instrument
(Signed) ” JOSEPH MACDONAGH.”
FROM P. J. HOGAN
[Mr. Hogan is Minister of Agriculture in Dail Eireann, and occupies the same Cabinet position in the Provisional Government.]
” The land is the outstanding problem in the new Ireland. The changed political order, which sets free the energies of the people for the task of reconstruction and nation-building, has definitely brought the question of the settlement of the broader aspects of the land problem into the first place. Land purchase on the established lines will have to be completed at once.
” The present position of land purchase is that about three-fourths of the tenanted land has been sold to the occupiers through the machinery of the British Land Acts. The benefits of t land purchase need no arguing. The improvement in the material and mental outlook of those who have been made the owners of the land they till is admitted by all. It is there to see.
” The financing of a future scheme presents considerable difficulties. The finances of the existing Land Purchase Acts have broken down. Ireland cannot afford to finance future land purchase on the lines of the last Acts. Whatever way out is found, however, it is plain that the raising of the necessary money is a matter of national credit, and from this point of view the present insecurity is most unfortunate.
” Following the completion of the transfer of the occupied land to its tenants must come the acquisition, division, and establishment of homesteads on the untenanted ranches. Due largely to the plantations of the past these ranches consist of wide areas of some of the most fertile land in the country, hungered after by the owners of tiny or barren holdings adjoining and by other classes of deserving claimants. The acquisition of these untenanted areas and their conversion into suitable holdings is a problem of immediate urgency in view of the necessity of providing for the needs even of our present population pending the development and exploitation of Ireland’s industrial resources.
” But while land settlement must be regarded as the first step towards an efficient and economical use of the land which is our greatest national asset, supplementary assistance must be given by way of a loan chargeable on the property with a view to providing the proprietor with the equipment and housing necessary to a progressive agriculture. In the case of new settlements such provision will, of course, be absolutely essential. There is little use of educating the farmer as to the necessity of proper housing for stock and implements or of the desirability of initiating different lines of development if through lack of capital or credit he is unable to effect the necessary changes.
” Equally important to the country is an efficient system of agricultural education. It is one of the anomalies with which unfortunately we have been too familiar that in this agricultural country the schemes of education have been directed to fit the youth of the country for anything rather than agriculture. Only within the last year or so has there even been a beginning made towards the establishment of faculties of agriculture in the university centres. It is a primary condition of success in developing our knowledge of the potentialities of the land, and disseminating that knowledge so as to be of practical value to our farmers, that attention to this, the fundamental industry of the country, should be firmly established as a most important function of the universities. Quite apart from agricultural research in its ordinary meaning, it would seem desirable that in these centres new possibilities of farm practice might be tested on a commercial scale. In Ireland we have too few farmers, whatever may be their enlightenment, who are so fortunately circumstanced as to be able to take the risks inherent in pioneering.
” The problems referred to are those which seem to call most for immediate attention from the State authority. But there still remains almost untouched a wide field of possible agricultural developments.
” The questions of new agricultural industries, organisation of markets, transit facilities or improvements, reclamation of waste lands, might be mentioned as typical. There is also awaiting attention the question of congestion in the West. So far only the fringe of this difficult problem has been touched. A population is there eking out a precarious existence on holdings which are either too small or too unproductive to support them. This situation has to be remedied.
” We can see, therefore, that agriculture in Ireland is at a trying period, and in grievous need of reconstruction and development. By virtue of the Treaty we have complete control of the industry. If we have difficulties and problems, we have, likewise, for the first time, power to deal with them. If we fail to bring agriculture to the level of efficiency and productiveness it has reached in such countries as Denmark, then we shall have nobody to blame for failure but ourselves.
(Signed) ” P. J. HOGAN.”
De Valera promised to contribute to the symposium, but failed to do so. However, I did obtain from him an exclusive interview during the session of Dail Eireann in December 1921, and it may be of interest to include here parts of his statement to me at that time.
” Our opponents in the Dail,” De Valera began ” and, really, I think it is only fair to explain they are not our opponents in fact however, politically speaking, our opponents have been playing politics in this matter of Document No. 2. They have succeeded in inducing a large section of the Press to make much of the seeming similarity between the oath contained in the Treaty and the oath which I suggested verbally at the secret session. As a result of their success in this attempt to mislead the people with regard to the true facts, almost all of the Irish newspapers are displaying this sort of thing …”
Here De Valera spread out an evening newspaper on the table and pointed with his forefinger to a box containing under the caption, ” The Two Oaths,” an italicised statement which read as follows :
” Mr. Sean Milroy on Tuesday revealed Mr. De Valera’s alternative oath. It is for the Irish nation to say if they agree with Mr. Griffith that this is a quibble.”
The two oaths followed in parallel columns, and the statement concluded with a further italicised line, which read :
” Mr. Milroy declared that the whole issue at stake was the difference between these two oaths.”
De Valera’s ” explanation ” of the difference, as he stated it to me, was as follows :
” The trouble with the oath contained in the Treaty,” he said, ” is not at all with regard to swearing to be ‘ faithful ‘ to the King of England; the trouble is swearing allegiance to the Constitution of the Irish Free State ‘ as by law established which amounts to swearing allegiance to the King, the King under the Treaty terms actually being the titular head of the Constitution the very Constitution itself.
” Now, since it is impossible to win the status of an isolated Republic, but because it is possible to arrange an external association with the British Commonwealth of Nations, I can see no harm in recognising the King as the head of that Commonwealth. It seems to me there is a very real difference between these two viewpoints, as there is between the two oaths.
” I suppose that the world appreciates Ireland’s true ambition. The Irish people have always wanted an isolated status like that of Switzerland or Denmark, with guarantees of neutrality. But England, rightly or wrongly, never has been able to see her way clear to consenting to this perhaps fearing in the case of war with another Power that she might have to violate such Irish neutrality and thus earn the same stigma as Germany in regard to Belgium.
” Knowing that it is impossible to win this much, and having already agreed to endeavour to find the way to effect a real peace between the Irish and English people, it does not strike me as being repugnant to recognise the King of England. I go even further, and say the objectionable feature of the Treaty oath is not in agreeing to be ‘ faithful ‘ to the King, because I disagree that there is any analogy between such a term and the fealty of a slave to his master. On the contrary, I take it to mean that it is the faithfulness of two equals who prove it in keeping a bargain made.
” The point is that the oath contained in the Treaty actually and unequivocally binds the taker to ‘ allegiance ‘ to the English King, for under the terms of the Treaty the Constitution of the Irish Free State ‘ as by law established ‘ is the King of England and nobody else.
” As a matter of fact, those in favour of the ratification of the Treaty are taking an unfair advantage in making it appear that the difference between the two oaths is the only actual difference between us. My verbally proposed oath was the least of what I offered by way of counter proposals. It is not even correctly expressed, as a study of it immediately makes apparent. I never put it on paper. Had I done so, it would have been properly expressed. I did not expect it to be written down and used against me in a public session of the Dail.
” I have repeatedly said in the public sessions that the Treaty is objectionable because it does not mean peace. The reason for this is obvious. The Irish people never mean to become part of the British Empire, but they are eagerly willing to be faithful to any agreement they enter into, even an agreement designating the king as titular head of the negotiating party. We earnestly, honestly and faithfully want to establish and maintain peaceful relations with England, but this can be ” and here De Valera paused as if choosing his words with the greatest care ” only when ‘ we ‘ means the Irish nation, and not British subjects within the Empire.
” My plan of peace is much more acceptable to Mr. Lloyd George than this Treaty, unbelievable as that may sound. It is more acceptable to him, if he only knew it, because it spells real peace, whereas the inclusion of Ireland within the Empire will never spell peace. If peace were to come on the lines I have proposed the greatest difficulty that might well eventuate would be to prevent too much fraternisation between the two countries !
” Whether the Dail will ratify the Treaty or reject the Treaty I do not know, nor can any man know. But one thing I do know, and I am sure that every man and woman in the Dail knows it too ratification will not mean peace. It will mean sooner or later that the English Government will have to face the centuries’ old question of Ireland for the Irish people. This I am so convinced Mr. Lloyd George fully comprehends as to leave me little moved by the arguments of our opponents that rejection would be immediately
followed by war.
” When Mr. Lloyd George knows, as I am positive he knows, that he can have a permanent and faithful peace with Ireland, including the association of Ireland with the Commonwealth of Nations of the British Empire so long as we remain ourselves and have not to become British subjects I think there can still be arranged such a peace not only can, but will be.”
FROM SIR MAURICE DOCKRELL, M.P.
[Sir Maurice is the only Unionist member elected from the South of Ireland to the Imperial Parliament, who, after his experience in the House of Commons, became an ardent Home Ruler. He is one of the principal business men of Ireland.]
” One would need to be a super-optimist to predict a future for the Treaty amid all the happenings of the moment. The flash of light which heralded its arrival may either have revealed an unsuspected precipice or may have temporarily blinded us to its full meaning. We may resemble birds who, after being released from captivity, circle round and round in apparent perplexity as to which is the true course to their objective. All Irishmen who are lovers of their country will hope that we may soon find and pursue with unerring aim the road that leads to a happy and prosperous Ireland.
(Signed) ” DOCKRELL.”
FROM His GRACE MOST REV. DR. T. P. GILMARTIN
[Dr. Gilmartin is the Archbishop of Tuam.]
” If educated men with a sense of citizenship are returned to Parliament, if judges and police are worthy of their roles, if, in a word, all the organs of the new State function normally, a great future awaits us. The country is fresh and undeveloped ; the population is healthy ; the people love their homes and their families ; the vices of civilisation are to a great extent unknown, and all the fixed factors of progress are, I think, realisable. But there are many unknown quantities in the problem, and there
are many ‘ ifs ‘ in the political prophecy.
(Signed) ” GILMARTIN.”
FROM RICHARD CROKER
[The late Richard Croker dictated and signed the following statement while lying on his sickbed a few weeks before his death in his home, Glencairn,
in Stillorgan, a suburb of Dublin.]
“In my opinion there are four countries in the world Coady which can be properly called progressive. They are America, Japan, Germany and the Argentine Republic. In my opinion the Irish Free State will rank among the best of these if it is given a chance. But . . .
” The way the leaders of this Irish Free State are handicapped reminds me of last year’s Grand National. Out of 27 starters two finished, and the second of these had fallen at the water- jump all due to the impossible difficulties of the course. Just this applies to the men who are now trying to establish the Free State.
” These men are looking forward, instead of backward ; they are trying to bring prosperity to their country. Their faces are set to the future, and their minds are not dwelling on the wrongs and misrule of 750 years. But will their opponents take down the hurdles and lighten the weights and give the Free State a chance ? Until we have an answer to that question nobody can say what the future holds in store for Ireland.
” Progre
What we should look out for is who is speaking Globally just after 11 AM ( I will be sleeping) . The ProPagan news site might be out of sync slightly but…
If Prince William is gibbering then just throw that in the trash where it belongs.
Pete,
I know of him. This youtube of the Opera House, @ 0:20 the geezer walking out of the crowd with the jeans and leather jacket, that’s me. ( It was a cold day by Brisbane standards.) My second of fame.
Sydney Opera House J.C.G.E.
FREE AGENT ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!
Morning folks, been looking back at earlier posts from people and reading who we think Celtic should sign in the transfer window….well here is my number 1 player to sign.
Ricardo Quaresma, I have seen him in the flesh 4 times whilst he was playing for Besiktas, the guy is class and the kind of attacking player we need at Celtic, he puts bums on seats big time. He is a free agent as he was released from his contract early, not for footballing issues, he was always the fans favourite. I sat at A Galatasary v Besiktas match and seen the best piece of skill that i have ever seen. It’s on youtube but i can’t post a link from work. Look him up he is worth 10 minutes of your time!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Quaresma
MWD Being judged by a supreme being………….. I like you and you always buy your round
There you go done….I have judged you.
HH
Kitalba
Have you got shares in the scroll by facility?
Still here, but now, for some weird numerology mumbo jumbo reason, the time’s been refined to 11:11 precisely. What rubbish….on a par with phrenology & blood-letting.
Meanwhile…..in the real world…
Morning all!
Well the world never ended then – eh?!
There’s a surprise!
Still time ‘tho I suppose!
HH!!
While away your last few minutes….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20jp0T_0WBc
U2-In Seville!
Or how about THE CLASH??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohxFjFGB92I
Or the ultimate for the occasion…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDN9y2vTdUs
Appropriately enough form APOCALYPSE NOW.
THE MIGHTY TIM
Always buys his round?
There can be no finer accolade,IMO.
MWD,you have indeed been judged by THE MIGHTY TIM,you have also been honoured!
I,of course,cannot say te same about you,as the only time I was in your company,I was erm tired after a long day………….
What’s happened to the blog?
Basic mechanics getting dismissed as something that only god knows about.
We mAy as well all give up and return to caves.
Anyway can’t wait until the festive period as I’ll get to go to my first (and maybe only) Celtic game of the season. You bhoys up the road don’t know how lucky you are.
Hail hail
Tom
Watch out for stalkers – online and offline.
M
CHAIRBHOY 0752
Aye-same as mine!
So still a young whippersnapper,then…..