It’s a well-established fact that we don’t have Beckenbauer and Baresi at the back, so the reason why we chose to play so high up the field is the most alarming element of last night’s debacle.
Dedryck was bound to misplace a pass, or Efe was bound to misread play. We all knew this. Regret over the last time mistakes like this were made doesn’t mean they won’t happen again. So when the inevitable occurred, our two full backs were 30 yards in front of the line of opposition attack, with our defensive mids well into opposition territory.
Efe’s failure to cover Kamara and Dedryck’s pass were consequences of the main mistake of the night, which was tactical. We didn’t lose the opening goal because of a bad pass, it was lost because we left an acre of Norway unattended.
Ronny, you should never have left so much space at the back away from home in Europe, we’re clearly not good enough for such an open system, not even close. We’ve learned nothing since what was supposed to be a lesson in Warsaw, when the same expansive errors cost us. Molde played rope-a-dope football, they could have watched us against Malmo, Maribor and Legia, as each opened their home games against us in exactly the same manner.
It must be an absolute joy to face a European opponent at home who leaves so much space at the back, begging to be exploited. If we had played with the same tactics we used in Amsterdam I’ve no doubt we would have won the game – no one in that Molde squad would get into the Celtic team.
There’s more. After dominating possession and creating genuine chances, the defeat looked inevitable from the 11th minute when we went behind. Body language changed in an instant and Celtic went out like a light. I’ll spare you what I said at the time in case it’s misconstrued, but the evidence suggests there’s more to worry about than repeating the same tactical mistakes.
Celtic have nine months and one and a half transfer windows to get ready for the next Champions League qualifiers. There’s plenty of time to put things right, but we can’t sleepwalk into another failure. More immediately, we could be out of a cup if we don’t pull our act together this week.
The original Holy Goalie, our own John Fallon, will be signing copies of his book, and no doubt giving you his thoughts on current events, at the Supporters’ Club on London Road on Sunday from 12:30. All are welcome. There’s live entertainment too, so get along and check it out.
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I still see posters saying that RD is bringing in his choice of players, and I still don’t believe it.
Take Janko, if he is indeed a RD choice, why not play him before playing an unfit Lustig, that would make sense to me.
The central defence, since the departure of JD and VvD he is severly limited.
If TB is his choice, why would he not play him as opposed to say Efe, who has made a gaff or two.
GMS and SA, not really getting much of a look in for RD choices, Scott Allen injured, but I will wager now, when fit, he will struggle to get game time.
Cifci, wtf is that all about.
Seems our downsizing has reached the scouting dept, Dundee and Manchester are the destinations now, maybes Pedro has cut John Park’s air miles.
These cavalry charges by the opposition are the killer…back 4 too slow in getting back to cover….the guy going down the left was leaving Lustig for dead.
DD
We’ve got two between three of us so still desperate for one mate.
Sipsini
She’s giving me ‘space’ :-)
A few years ago, I was firmly behind our strategy. We recruited with intelligence: Ledley, Matthews, Wanyama, Kayal etc.
Then we sold everybody.
Now we are in decline.
Scouts, coaches, players and head honchos must all share the blame.
I have just come back from being at sea for eleven nights, to watch Celtic being all at Sea for Ninety Four Minutes, as other posters have intimated all is not well behind the scene, Hope everything gets fixed sooner rather than later, and let us all be strong together till it is, as others are taking great delight in our hour of darkness, Keep the Faith and onwards to Sunday
HT
Was that a Meatloaf song? :)
Quonno
I agree that Lustig has no option but to step infield to cover when the CBs get sucked to the other side, but the point was still made I think (I hope). That far post ball when the defence has shifted over is exploited in every league in Europe, but for us, it meant that cumulative consequences of several players failing to do the basics is that they have a goal scoring opportunity. The shot ricocheted off CG into the near post corner and was a bit spawny IMHO.
Last night our players seemed less assured on their feet on that surface than Molde did. This suggests lack of proper footwear or lack of preparation.
With a nod to Paul67, I guess I also think about when (long time ago) I played. In very wet weather passes on the surface were doomed to be under and then over hit, so the tactic when it was as wet as last night was to lump over the top and force their defence to turn. The ball will sometimes skid out of play or into the hands of the keeper, but a few times it would stick in the surface water – and then LG is onto it, (then I wake up and realize it was all a dream after all).
Hope you are well.
TET…
RD gets dealt the cards he has to play with, like yourself, I don’t think he has any call on who comes in.
For saying that, his tactics and stubbornness to adapt to the run of play is costing us dear.
Like some, I think there is a lack of respect in the dressing room for him and his cohorts in the dugout.
I hoped he would make a fist of it but the crab like football and nieve tactics have left me at a loss.
Let’s see how he plays Carlton Cole (doubt he was his choice) if one up front I’ll wash my hands of him. HH
DD
Was that the band that had Terry Hurlock as their lead singer :-)
Bankiebhoy
I think you were 50% right in your reply to me the other day if you remember it.
HT
Naw, it was Terry Hurlock’s better looking brother.
Bumped into the bold Telboy one night in Partick. Strange little girl! ;)
RWE…
Gtf, you played on grass when you were young, the only time I played on grass was at rosebury in a final and I kept slipping in my sannies:(
Hamilton Tim
Good points well made. From here on in, I am afraid the clock is ticking, I decided twos I months ago that Gordon needed a rest/kick up the arse, Sunday should be that day.
Janko, there has to be a reason why Efe is preferred as a back up right back? I have no idea why.
Blackwell? What did he do wrong at Motherwell?
The injuries for Jo and Scott Allen are just bad luck,, we hope. I also believe SA will be better than Dylan, just an opinion .
Up top, we really need Carlton Cole. Now there is a statement I never thought I would say.
We live to fight another day, remember we are Celtic……what a great thing to say.
hail
Hail!,! Hail!
While these days I am largely ignored on this site (Cassandra indeed) the truth about Ronny not deciding on signings came out at least a year ago. Yet some of you don’t want to believe it.
Why not?
I don’t think Ronny is the man for the job; time for a change. He never learns from his mistakes, sad to say but that’s the reality from me.
HH
Hamilton Tim, Good post, enjoyed it.
Every team and every Club have their awful days, we have less awful days then most as we are the dominant team in our League. We are not used to days like yesterday that is why it hurts so much.
That is not to say we should just suck it up, we are right to be angry but we need to keep some level of perspective. If we do crash out of the Europa it may be time to end the Ronny experiment but in the meantime there are games to be played. We have 3 games in 6 days starting Sunday, lets win the 3 of them and see how we feel then.
More hometown refereeing at Dublin in the rugby. Glasgow hard done by. Not Scotland’s week for officials for sure.
Remember Moneyball demands the stats decide. Not the manager.
What a soulless husk of a club they have turned us into.
We died a long time ago.
Some of you are supporting zombies, much closer to home than those you laugh at.
Meanwhile Peter gets his extra bonus.
Tell me my fellow Celtic supporters. Does that make you proud?
Read about every post from last night and throughout the day and about everythings been done to death already but might as well stick my ‘expert’ opinion in.
Normally id steer clear of this place after a result like that because it can get too depressing, but there was something different about it all this time……too important……not that anything i say will make any difference.
1st of all…..cannae believe some of bhoys are talking about 2 up front still……it would be nice though eh?
Plan A
That’s it.
Ronny is only willing to put a team out in one formation to play a certain way.
Someone questioned whether he had Molde watched and it probably wouldn’t matter whether he did or not because he just sets his team up the same way each game.
My system is better than his system again?
Its his gig right now and its his right to set us up to play his way but geezo…..2-0 down…..nothing to loose…..maybe……just maybe……try something?
Armstrong and Lustig lasting an hour was an issue and 2 subs were perhaps set aside for them but to throw Ciftci on with 15 to go just seemed feeble and too little too late and to make that change without changing too much wasn’t exactly inspirational.
Qualification was certainly going to be harder if we lost but it didn’t mean we were out so why not try something?
Go 4-3-3, 3-4-3…..anything!
I don’t know if anyone else feels the same but to me each player in that forward midfield 3 should be very comfortable taking the ball with their back to goal and a man tight on them.
Not only should they be comfortable doing it, they should have the ability to hold that man off, turn him and beat him.
Out of the 3 id say Commons is the only one capable of doing that but with a lack of pace and being out on the wing and without anyone to cross to anyway, managing to do so doesn’t really create the opportunity for his strengths that would be there if he were doing so in a central area.
By the time we navigate the ball back and forth between Brown, Bitton and our ‘defence’ we have taken an age to work our way a further 10 or 20 yards up the park to then face two banks of 5 without any space and no-one capable of taking the ball in such tight positions.
Even if we do work it wide for Izzy or Lustig to cross, they normally need to put a pin point cross on Griffiths head as he is the only man in the box and even managing to keep their crosses in the pitch is enough of an issue for them.
Seriously…..id tell Izzy im fining you a weeks wages if you dare put your cross straight out the park and don’t get that cross into that box.
Maybe he would then?
I really felt sorry for Boyatta and Ambrose last night.
Whether you think Efe is a central defender or not is 1 thing but these guys are being asked to not only keep the back door shut but join in all this build up play as well to the extent that Boyatta kept ending up well in front of Brown deep inside their half looking to make passes…..surely Brown should have been the one taking responsibility at that point?
In one of those moments Boyatta was left with the ball and away out on the right wing in the 2nd half, 4 defenders in front of him and never had a team mate to pass to.
Sutton was moaning about too many touches but i was thinking wtf is that man having to even be out there in that position?
So many things wrong and part of it is that i think we are being coached to death.
Players have to do certain things in the structure of this build up play and not what is perhaps needed at the time but they have to do what they are told to do and often end up trying to make a pass that just isn’t on and its killing any spontaneous decision making and individual creativity.
To do all of this with a man short is another thing and once again Johansen was poor yet again and did nothing to merit not only getting that starting position but staying on the pitch in favour of Commons who at least managed to conjure up a bit of composure to get a goal back.
It would have been wiser for Commons to save his thoughts on the substitution until in the dressing room but we can all see the favouritism that is there for Johansen and it is clearly a problem in the squad….well…..certainly with Commons!
So a creative front 3 has 1 missing, 1 probably struggling still for match fitness and sharpness and the 3rd too slow to be very effective in his designated area…..leads to the guys at the back having to offer more and more support to try to create something leaving gaps everywhere…..square pegs in round holes……so flawed yet it will be put in place again in a fortnight because that is the system.
I realise those were crazy conditions last night(same for both teams) and a manager cannot legislate for poor passing but the least i expect is that they are at the side of the park talking to our players and trying to help organise them……there is absolutely nothing from our sideline.
To just be sitting on that bench watching that unfold instead of being at the side of the pitch geeing players up or settling them down beggars belief to me and especially with those fans spending what time and money they did to stand watching that in that weather.
Such a mess.
Leaderless on and off the park last night.
To me, this needs the plug pulled on it now.
3 games left in this Group, the January transfer window and the remainder of this league season for a new boss……and i mean a boss…..a manager, not a coach to get a team into shape for next seasons qualifiers.
We were a complete shambles last night. We need to get someone in the management team now not in six months time to organise things.
Sorry that last should have been for Glass Two Thirds Full
Quonno
I agree that it is definitely not just about KC’s tantrum.
But I do believe that his tantrum demonstrates that the broader “team” morale is not good, that the club paper over things that happen with a level of spin.
As for JC…it seems he sets very high standards of fitness and commitment that older pros in particular seem to resent.
Are JC’s standards too high? I have heard that sometimes he challenges the players to sprints and beats them. So what, as far as I’m concerned he makes his point very effectively. If a 47 year old can beat a 27 year old then the “WHY” focus needs to be on the 27 year old athlete.
Relations between the coaching staff and KC are not good. That is evident.
I think Scott Brown’s role is pivotal in this situation and he seems to be marginalized in all of this.
HH
Thunder Road
I have read nothing from last night, am gutted enough….
Although agree with some of you and and HT’s essays
Look everyone. We can flog this dead horse forever, but in doing so we merely delay the inevitable.
Deila hasn’t got it. If he had it, we would have seen it by now.
Think on this quite objectively…
When we see an up and coming manager whether in the EPL, SPL or EngCh. we recognise that they are doing something extraordinary with the material they have: they are punching above their weight. Not just for the odd game, but consistently. They have a gel, a camaraderie, a belief.
Even when we see a manager getting everything out of their team, perhaps not punching above their weight, we recognise good work in action: a well organised fighting team, they deliver consistently decent results especially against below par and on-paper equally ranked teams, because their manager organises and drives them in much more productive ways.
Keep thinking objectively….
Now look at Celtic. We have a manager who to be honest, in light of the resources, facilities and support he has, compared with his domestic opposition, is struggling.
Do not be fooled by our nose in front league position: that betrays simplistic reasoning. Our opposition are handicapped, to use an analogy from the race course, by severely limited budgets, poor facilities, pressure to sell players. If you are objective you will recognise that Celtic should be miles in front. Miles.
In Europe, our failed strategies, tactical ineptitude and fractured ‘team’ spirit is laid bare for all to marvel at.
Our excellence comes in making excuses, building straw men and believing in logical fallacies.
So what…
Well where do we stand? We remain where we were after Gordon Strachan left the club. We have a very healthy dying club. We have a handsomely remunerated boardroom that throws crumbs to the plebians: enough crumbs to scrape by in the league, and just enough to give us a 500-1 shot in getting into the CL proper.
The crumbs are managed by the crumby manager. No this is no ad hominem attack on the man known as Ronny Deila, it is on the manager himself; his ability to organise, to gel his players, to beat teams, to know when to change tactics, to take a long term strategy.
In many ways, our manager is not to blame: who wouldn’t take the Celtic job, when you are being promoted 5 promotions above your head? No, it is the boardroom mentality. But we have to deal with the facts. We have to stem the loss of blood, the awful football, the disarray must end. We need a new manager in, who will not be found in the outer reaches of Lapland or Lagos. We need to be ambitious, if only in this position.
Why? Because a good manager, will realise for us the old Aristotelian paradox, that the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. He will punch above his weight. It is a far greater investment to have a manger that costs you 2 million a year than to have a half a million manager, wasting ten million a year.
I believe we have reached the point where change is required immediately. The RD team must be sacked.
Lawwell and Co. are a slow burner.
Listening to WGS and Stan last night and they both had a clearer understanding of the game than our management team.
Neg
Hi pal, how are you doing?
I would never ignore a Drumchapel Tim.
You were front line fenian warriors in that hun run scheme.
Keep on keeping on!
Glad to get all the insight from all those in the know about what happens behind the scenes.
Or you are talking pish!
Deila is finished!
End of!
Roy C i agree with your good self
If he even played two up front at home it would be the last thing the opposition would expect
The lack of flexibility is lamentable
RC
A human being who does not learn from mistakes is doomed.
A manager who does not learn from mistakes, should not be managing anything.
The Common’s outburst was very revealing for me. If you have confidence and respect in the management team you do not do that. Once again I back his passion, but you do not do that in public. It tells me that there are problems and he felt justified in highlighting them. All’s not well.
Sort it Celtic…
HH
Andrew Kerins Green and White Army on 23rd October 2015 9:48 pm
Roy C i agree with your good self
If he even played two up front at home it would be the last thing the opposition would expect
The lack of flexibility is lamentable
————–
Lenny often played 442 and was criticised as we were often out gunned in midfield against the 5.
WGS was chased from the club cos the fans didnt like him, now they want him back.
NegAnon, What gives you the right to lecture the rest of us. Sometimes you make good points, sometimes you post nonsense not unlike the rest of us.
We all want what is best for Celtic, I’m sure you do too.
You post as if you are one of the few who cherish the soul of Celtic and that the rest of us have sold out. What is it that you want us to do.
Do you want to see a total Boycott of the Club, if that is what you want then why not do something about it yourself, if that is not what you are advocating then please what is it you want.
love the summin up HT – for many reasons aswell as there being the slightest glimmer of hope. Maybe just maybe there’s a chance ronnie will learn though it took him fu**ing ages to learn kc is our only quality on the fu**in park.
is it easy to change u16 e ticket to adult ? call the ticket office?
Andrew Kerins Green and White Army
He had to try something else but he’s damned by his philosophy. HH
DD
spot on amigo HH
TR
Great post. You got a lot of time on your hands to type that? :)
I’VEHADTOCHANGEMYNAME on 23RD OCTOBER 2015 9:54 PM
love the summin up HT – for many reasons aswell as there being the slightest glimmer of hope. Maybe just maybe there’s a chance ronnie will learn though it took him fu**ing ages to learn kc is our only quality on the fu**in park.
is it easy to change u16 e ticket to adult ? call the ticket office?
– See more at: http://www.celticquicknews.co.uk/dont-blame-defenders-this-one-was-down-to-tactics/comment-page-13/#comments
—–
Aye mate but if you’re close enough you’re better going in to the TO to sort it.
okay … just for the sake of argument, someone has to stick up for RD …. (well, sort of)
I agree that he has his flaws. His failure to have or adopt any system other than 4231 when it is clear that it isn’t working is a problem. However, going one step deeper …. why isnt it working?
It is a system that requires basic balls skills that most Celtic (and indeed most British players) simply lack (at least in comparison to most other pros). Over the last 30 years or so, basic ball skills in the scottish and english game have fallen far behind most other countries have improved. Tactically, most other countries have adapted to suit the difference in basic ball skills.
I look at Celtic’s players, and many of them seem unable to even make or take a pass while moving. Very few even seem to be aware of where they should be positioned in order to make themselves available to receive a pass from a teammate. Even our ‘skill’ players lack either the skill, or the confidence in their skill, to take on a player. How often do we see Celtic players – when confronted with a defender – do a 180 and pass the ball backwards? Far too often!.
I see a lot of football (on tv) from all over the world, and the level of skill I see in the SPL is far behind many (and will soon be surpassed by teams in Canada and America).
RD comes from a country which is playing better football, and so he presumably thinks that the systems that worked there, will work in Scotland. But the players here dont have the basic ball skills to play the fast paced game that the 4231 system demands.
Now, is the lack of skill RD’s fault? No.
But, is it his fault that he cant teach the basic skills to pros? Or that he cant adapt a system that suits/gets the most out of the skills that our players do have? Arguably yes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfONiJsmDgQ
Anyway, we are Celtic supporters…
CmonChristyCSC
Sipsini
You will be washing your hands then.
He will NOT change from 4-2-3-1, that is a given, and if the truth be known, either would I, it’s the way forward in todays modern game, if the players do what they are supposed to do, ours don’t.
It will take time to get this system working, time that many don’t want to afford him, but the man who matters will give him the time imo, I understand the kids are learning it, so maybes in a year or so they will be able to step in when required.
My problem is that he can’t change when things are not working, if he can’t see the problems we can see, that is seriously worrying, maybes he has faith that the players will sort it, that is also worrying, cos they haven’t till now.
Whatever, still a Tim, and for that I am eternally grateful and honored.
HH
RWE
Yes – agreed.
The full-backs shouldn’t both be forward at the same time.
I also think we maybe need a more defensive DM who can play behind Brown and Bitton in European games. Doesn’t have to be a superstar – just someone who has a more natural instinct to hold back. If our attack breaks down he becomes an extra defender. Sacrifice one of the three attacking mids.