Today we have a guest writer, Archie Macpherson, Scotland’s most celebrated broadcaster. Archie started broadcasting for the BBC in the 1960s and was the authoritative voice of football commentaries, and comment, for decades thereafter. He was co-commentator for our first European Cup win and remains a regular newspaper columnist and TV contributor.
I had a brief conversation with Archie last month when he categorically stated that Jock Stein was best manager Scotland has ever produced was. Pleased, though I was, to hear this, in the light of accolades earned by Sir Alex Ferguson, I asked him if he could substantiate his claim.
These questions are enormously subjective but few have the breadth of perspective, not to mention the analytical capacity, to tackle this one properly. This is the article he offered to write for us on the subject:
Jock and Fergie, by Archie Macpherson
If there had been no Jock Stein there would have been no Sir Alex Ferguson. It may sound a contentious statement to make but even though it is tempting to play around with history according to your own beliefs and perceptions I would stand by that as a sound interpretation of the way the respective merits of these men can be set against each other.
It helps in this matter if you can lay aside the achievements of those men from the record books and instead consider their personalities and the context in which they plied their trade.
When Jock came to Celtic as manager in 9th March 1965, he fully understood from his past experience there as a player and coach that he would find a club desperate to achieve a commanding status in Scottish football. The frustration they felt only reflected that which their massive support similarly endured around that period. They were massive underachievers.
He also knew from his own background that his task would not simply be about selecting a team, then motivating them, but about radically overhauling the perception the public in general had about the club and which stemmed mainly from the constructs of the media.
It may be difficult for a current generation to fully comprehend this but Celtic then were simply perceived as bit players in a drama where the lead actor came from Govan and always took the curtain-calls. Stein changed all that. He took on the press-pack like he had been sent in from the city’s sanitation department to fumigate.
If you didn’t turn up on the dot for his press conferences then the door was slammed on your face no matter the size of your ego. His television interviews, unlike the passive posture of that likeable man his predecessor Jimmy McGrory, were often truculent and challenging. All of this concentrated the mind of those who wrote and spoke about Celtic. They would think twice about saying anything that might offend the big man. He was strengthening Celtic’s image and, as a by-product of that, securing the self-esteem within the playing staff which previously had been sadly lacking.
And where was Sir Alec at this time? He was watching, observing. I saw him sitting in the lounge of Malpensa Airport Milan in 1970, in the aftermath of the European Cup Final there, amidst thousands of Celtic supporters, which given his Rangers connections only indicated his deep interest in what Jock was doing.
Fergie to his credit was a learner. When he went to Old Trafford it was not to a club about which there was lack of public respect. It was initial lack of respect for himself which made him take up arms against his detractors. To go to a Fergie press-conference was to see a recreation of Jock at the height of his powers. And from being beside Jock in the dressing-room, and on the bench at Scotland games, he absorbed Jock’s handling of men which could range from wrath to wit. The so-called ‘hairdryer’ treatment Fergie handed out only simulated what Jock could do to make the walls of a dressing-room bulge when it got up his hump.
Where they differed enormously as men was that Jock did not harbour grudges in quite the same way as Fergie. Jock did have his difficulties with the BBC initially but never refused to deal with them. Fergie barred them for over a decade, then got an award from the same people. So I am suggesting that although you cannot compare the achievements made in entirely different footballing environments, Fergie served his apprenticeship in the Stein era by consequently adopting much of the big man’s methodology. Jock was the ice-breaker. Fergie was the follow up.
In that sense, as the one was indispensable to the success of the other, I rate Jock as the master of the two.
My thanks to Archie for his contribution.
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BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS ………FC not PLC
04:04 on 11 January, 2014
I’ll ask him tomorrow.
Here’s a strange one from a garage band.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DejxPzR9Cso
Petec,
Found it amigo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgFU5Ak88-k
MAGS
Cheers,bud. Tell him I’m back in late April,a few minor sessions may be in the offing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lliPLRuGxq0
Juicy Gin?
VP @ 03:23
Me too sir !
Non me culpa – when drunk transl. please – (I’ve got a Latin degree but the brain cells responsible for carrying that info were ruthlessly deleted by a bottle of Famous Grouse in 1999 – I remember the bassa. It told me to my face when I opened it that my life would change irrevocably as soon as I took one gulp).
BMCUW,
I can hit my own arse with a banjo (years of training).
Can I convince PL to sign me for above minimum wage?……..
You would think so if I can play a tune on it as well, ffs :)
Maggie, I AM stoned immaculate!
But Bobby, Golf in Prestwick . . . I can only hope,
Bogey golfer here working on putting and course management!
Not easy to comprehend.
Born agains? Just enough to get it right Maggie.
And the strong man Samson lifts the midget,
little Tiny Tim, up on his shoulders, way up
And carries him on down the midway,
past the kids, past the sailors, to his dimly lit trailer
And the Ferris wheel turns and turns like it ain’t ever gonna stop
And the circus boss leans over and whispers into the little boy’s ear
“Hey, son, you want to try the big top?
T
Margaret McGill,
Please don’t quote my lyrics without copyright permission or reference to the author.
My snake thanks you.
Now where’s the door out of here?….
Feck me, Jim Morrisson talks to Mags about controversial 70s lyrics on a blog that was discussing best remedies for the Gout earlier.
Must be a CQN issue, Father.
:))
The Ghost of Jim Morrisson
04:30 on 11 January, 2014
Margaret McGill,
Please don’t quote my lyrics without copyright permission or reference to the author.
My snake thanks you.
Now where’s the door out of here?….
———————————
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xUD6MWmSAc
For GooD
What I’m listening to now, while fellow Celtic Supporters are being criminalised with no help from no one, and being blamed for the recession on CQN.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES_Lp49eksM&list=FL0z5apok_7R_L0YSu6rjTsw
Feck me,
I was a vessel for the spirit of Doors legend Jim Morrisson there :))
Got my true identity back now :)) Not easy that rigamarole.
Pedro,
You rumbled me quickly :)))
Fortunes Favour Mibbes
04:41 on 11 January, 2014
Feck me,
I was a vessel for the spirit of Doors legend Jim Morrisson there :))
________________________________________________________
That isn’t a funny joke, it is the worst joke ever, only IMO.
Now and Then is relative.
Pedro @ 04:49,
But Jim Morrisson found it funny…..
PETEC 0437
Dave Gilmour’s early solo stuff was disappointing,IMO.
He is a guitarist,and should have focused more on his strengths.
He came into his own as he matured,putting more of his own abilities across as Pink Floyd matured.
Then,when Roger Waters left,put his own mark on the band,with an emphasis on guitar.
I’ve always reckoned that Pink Floyd without Roger Waters was much better than Roger Waters without Pink Floyd.
But whenI saw David Gilmour effectively relegating Roger Waters to a side spot at G8,I could have cried.
FFM,
It is easy to divert the Flow.
SumTimes it is impossible to divert the flow.
BMCUW,
Whit??? Totally disagree. DG’s early stuff was excellent, and along with the late RW gave the band a sound.
Re PF’s music without Waters, it was less depressing, but still unique and non-commercial. But we’d probably agree, if they’d stuck together for the 80s and 90s, it would have been extra-special.
As for the G8, it was clear to me DG was still uneasy with RW on stage – I didn’t see any upstaging at all, just RW trying hard to make amends, to his credit.
Just our own perceptions though, on two men who feel the same as most of us about modern politics.
BOBBY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g93mz_eZ5N4
Pedro,
Sun-Times- Ghost of Jim Morrisson.
I’d listen to the latter who will without doubt have a sense of humour !
Appreciate if you mibbes didn’t like him, but he was rebellious, which made me like him right away.
FFM
Haw you,I’m trying to have a divisive topic here, and you’re pointing out their commonality?
Have you forgotten what being a MOONHOWLER is all about?
We’ll start again…
Gilmour= Daedelus
Waters= Icarus.
Waters believed he was bigger than the band,but from what I’ve read,the rough copies of sounds which were written by Roger Waters were fleshed out by the remaining members.
And from listening to his solo material,I can believe that.
It is utter garbage.
FFM – I’m the only conspiracy theorist in the village)
05:05 on 11 January, 2014
Pedro,
Sun-Times- Ghost of Jim Morrisson.
I’d listen to the latter who will without doubt have a sense of humour !
Appreciate if you mibbes didn’t like him, but he was rebellious, which made me like him right away.
——————————————-
505, A Rebel Yell?
I have no right to Judge anyone at all, at awe.
God’s story is full of evil that became good, conversely, good that strayed away frae the guid Faithers Homestead.
BMCUW,
FFS :)))
DG and RW are amazing talents, whether together or not. I
hate it when people diss DG and hark back to the early days. DG was the reason they progressed, with every album, and then DG and RW each contributed 50% to the genius if PF’s music. One thing I am an expert on, even more so than Celtic btw !!, is PF. At least neither of them is Paul McCartney.
Don’t you go all cryptic on me now. Look, if you don’t believe me, Robert Plant explains it all here….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv6h8Q3p6FA&list=FL0z5apok_7R_L0YSu6rjTsw
Petec @ 05:16,
Why you bring Billy Idol into it?? :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BU6VvcmnbA&list=FL0z5apok_7R_L0YSu6rjTsw
If you read through the entire night shift and only understand about three of the posts, is that something wrong with you or something wrong with the posters?
I typed a whole load of jibber jabber, it didnae feel totally right tho, so I deleted it, I’ve deleted so much over the years because it didnae feel right.
If I posted that stuff, I’d be KEVJ’d at least and even Kojo’ed.
I admire both of those posters a lot.
FFM – I’m the only conspiracy theorist in the village)
05:18 on 11 January, 2014
Petec @ 05:16,
Why you bring Billy Idol into it?? :)
__________________________________
Honesty is definitely the best policy. I hope ye dinnae Mind me bringing Transhumanism into the olde lexicon.
chasbhoy
If you don’t trust yourself to make your own judgements on that, then mibbes you are a moonhowler and don’t realise it.
Lack of understanding is in the beholder, not in the bringers of truth.
Or mibbes you’re just one of those people who needs everything clarified for them.
Either way, HH to ya :))
Pedro,
Apols,
Fortunes HQ just suffered a massive computer malfunction.
I think I can just about get by with this Geneva Underwood 319 White Portable Manual Typewriter. I’ve connected the ribbon cartridge to the BT line and am ready to rock and roll again. So here I am.
The connection is weak, though, so bear that in mind.
Right, now to begin my opinion on Billy Idol and Transhumanism.
To begin, Billy Idol (the pop music icon) and Transhumanism aren’t obviously connected to the uneducated eye, but gggggggggggggg,,,,,,,,,,,,sssssssssss [replace ribbon] eeeeeee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cLVl4d2T0Q&list=FL0z5apok_7R_L0YSu6rjTsw
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS ………FC not PLC
05:11 on 11 January, 2014
FFM
Haw you,I’m trying to have a divisive topic here, and you’re pointing out their commonality?
Have you forgotten what being a MOONHOWLER is all about?
We’ll start again…
Gilmour= Daedelus
Waters= Icarus.
Waters believed he was bigger than the band,but from what I’ve read,the rough copies of sounds which were written by Roger Waters were fleshed out by the remaining members.
And from listening to his solo material,I can believe that.
It is utter garbage.
_______________________
Don’t haud bach BOBBY!!!
I know nothing but I know I am in the Kompany of gurus of Music.
nae rabbitt punches or gouges…….
That’s no a Rabbi thats a *********
Good Times?
Pedro,
:)) That rabbit was being cast for Watership Down.
Nothing worse than running over a rabbit.
Reminds me of one of my cruel episodes in life. My burd at the time was driving me home from the pub after patiently listening to me talk hours of endless pish.
It was that time of year where rabbits suicidally play ring a ring a roses on the middle of the road and then a game of dare with car lights.
She was distraught when one of them stared her in the face as we raced towards it at 50mph.
Poor we thing bounced off the windscreen and landed on the car roof.
When we got home, I asked her if she’d seen Watership Down. When I heard “No”, that was it. Straight into the video player, and spent 20 mins fast forwarding to this song and the “road” scene.
Last laugh was against me, as we ended up bubbling away together and promising to become vegetarians and Geenpeace members :)))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neBftfMt5xA
Austrian captain Marc Janko has told Neil Lennon he is the man to end Celtic’s search for a striker.
A £5million target in 2009, Janko was given a guided tour of Lennoxtown by the Northern Irishman when he was first-team coach under Gordon Strachan, before the player honoured a gentleman’s agreement to stay with Red Bull Salzburg for another year.
The 30-year-old forward finally joined Dutch club Twente, then Porto, before pitching up at Trabzonspor where he was a second-half substitute in Thursday’s 3-1 defeat to the Parkhead club.
On show: Trabzonspor striker Marc Janko played against Celtic in the Antalya Winter Cup on Thursday
Deeply unhappy in Turkey, however, the 37-times capped Austrian international says he would now jump at the chance of a move to Glasgow.
‘If Celtic are looking for a striker to come in and score goals, then tell them I would walk to Glasgow from Turkey to join – honestly,’ said Janko
‘If I was to get the chance to talk with Celtic again, then I would be interested.
‘For me, the time so far in Turkey has been terrible. I don’t know why it has turned out so badly.
‘I don’t think Celtic would have been impressed by my game against them – it was horrible. But I have been sick for a week and have had no energy.
‘But I can only keep trying to prove my value in games for the Austrian national team – which I have done consistently – and hope that things improve.’
On the search: Celtic manager Neil Lennon is looking for a new striker to join the Glasgow club
Janko has scored 16 goals for his country and has a career record of 104 goals in 204 appearances.
Consigned to the bench for much of his time in Turkey, however, he described his current situation as ‘awful’ and believes a move to Scotland could rejuvenate his career.
‘I first came to speak to Celtic a few years ago when I was at Salzburg. I visited Glasgow for two days of meetings but things did not work out as they could have done and as I now wished they had done.
‘I had already given my word to the owner of Red Bull – Didi Mateschitz – that I would stay with his club for one more season and in the end I stood by that gentleman’s agreement.
‘After that one year I moved to Twente in Holland and had a good time playing well and scoring goals. Then FC Porto made an offer I couldn’t resist to take me to Portugal.
‘Unfortunately, things have not worked for me since then in Turkey, and if I could choose things differently I would be playing at Celtic.
‘I was in Glasgow to meet with Gordon Strachan in 2009 – but I always remember meeting with Mr Lennon at the same time in the manager’s office.
Prolific: Austria captain Janko (centre) has scored 104 goals in 204 appearances
‘I got on well with him and he showed me around the training ground and it was clear how much Celtic meant to him.
‘I was given a tour of the city, taken to the stadium – which was fantastic – and I could just imagine how it would be completely full.
‘But for reasons not really to do with Celtic – more to do with the agreement I had given to Salzburg – the move did not happen at that time.
‘Okay, the offer Celtic put before me was not the biggest, but my decision not to come was more down to the relationship I had at Red Bull.
‘You never know what can happen in the future – I am always hopeful that good things can still happen to me as I’m only 30 and still hungry.’
Better link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGyQmH9NZcw