Today we have a guest writer, Archie Macpherson, Scotland’s most celebrated broadcaster. Archie started broadcasting for the BBC in the 1960s and was the authoritative voice of football commentaries, and comment, for decades thereafter. He was co-commentator for our first European Cup win and remains a regular newspaper columnist and TV contributor.
I had a brief conversation with Archie last month when he categorically stated that Jock Stein was best manager Scotland has ever produced was. Pleased, though I was, to hear this, in the light of accolades earned by Sir Alex Ferguson, I asked him if he could substantiate his claim.
These questions are enormously subjective but few have the breadth of perspective, not to mention the analytical capacity, to tackle this one properly. This is the article he offered to write for us on the subject:
Jock and Fergie, by Archie Macpherson
If there had been no Jock Stein there would have been no Sir Alex Ferguson. It may sound a contentious statement to make but even though it is tempting to play around with history according to your own beliefs and perceptions I would stand by that as a sound interpretation of the way the respective merits of these men can be set against each other.
It helps in this matter if you can lay aside the achievements of those men from the record books and instead consider their personalities and the context in which they plied their trade.
When Jock came to Celtic as manager in 9th March 1965, he fully understood from his past experience there as a player and coach that he would find a club desperate to achieve a commanding status in Scottish football. The frustration they felt only reflected that which their massive support similarly endured around that period. They were massive underachievers.
He also knew from his own background that his task would not simply be about selecting a team, then motivating them, but about radically overhauling the perception the public in general had about the club and which stemmed mainly from the constructs of the media.
It may be difficult for a current generation to fully comprehend this but Celtic then were simply perceived as bit players in a drama where the lead actor came from Govan and always took the curtain-calls. Stein changed all that. He took on the press-pack like he had been sent in from the city’s sanitation department to fumigate.
If you didn’t turn up on the dot for his press conferences then the door was slammed on your face no matter the size of your ego. His television interviews, unlike the passive posture of that likeable man his predecessor Jimmy McGrory, were often truculent and challenging. All of this concentrated the mind of those who wrote and spoke about Celtic. They would think twice about saying anything that might offend the big man. He was strengthening Celtic’s image and, as a by-product of that, securing the self-esteem within the playing staff which previously had been sadly lacking.
And where was Sir Alec at this time? He was watching, observing. I saw him sitting in the lounge of Malpensa Airport Milan in 1970, in the aftermath of the European Cup Final there, amidst thousands of Celtic supporters, which given his Rangers connections only indicated his deep interest in what Jock was doing.
Fergie to his credit was a learner. When he went to Old Trafford it was not to a club about which there was lack of public respect. It was initial lack of respect for himself which made him take up arms against his detractors. To go to a Fergie press-conference was to see a recreation of Jock at the height of his powers. And from being beside Jock in the dressing-room, and on the bench at Scotland games, he absorbed Jock’s handling of men which could range from wrath to wit. The so-called ‘hairdryer’ treatment Fergie handed out only simulated what Jock could do to make the walls of a dressing-room bulge when it got up his hump.
Where they differed enormously as men was that Jock did not harbour grudges in quite the same way as Fergie. Jock did have his difficulties with the BBC initially but never refused to deal with them. Fergie barred them for over a decade, then got an award from the same people. So I am suggesting that although you cannot compare the achievements made in entirely different footballing environments, Fergie served his apprenticeship in the Stein era by consequently adopting much of the big man’s methodology. Jock was the ice-breaker. Fergie was the follow up.
In that sense, as the one was indispensable to the success of the other, I rate Jock as the master of the two.
My thanks to Archie for his contribution.
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Vespacide
Can’t argue with the lyrics…..as Bill Hicks said,
“By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising…kill yourself. Thank you. Just planting seeds, planting seeds is all I’m doing. No joke here, really. Seriously, kill yourself, you have no rationalisation for what you do, you are Satan’s little helpers. Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself now. Now, back to the show. Seriously, I know the marketing people: ‘There’s gonna be a joke comin’ up.’ There’s no f****n’ joke. Suck a tail pipe, hang yourself…borrow a pistol from an NRA buddy, do something…rid the world of your evil f***in’ presence.”
petec
Just true repentance?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtlwFhXARmc
petec
why?
zimmerman
01:43 on 11 January, 2014
Vespacide
Can’t argue with the lyrics…..as Bill Hicks said,
“By the way, if anyone here is in marketing or advertising…kill yourself. Thank you. Just planting seeds, planting seeds is all I’m doing. No joke here, really. Seriously, kill yourself, you have no rationalisation for what you do, you are Satan’s little helpers. Kill yourself, kill yourself, kill yourself now. Now, back to the show. Seriously, I know the marketing people: ‘There’s gonna be a joke comin’ up.’ There’s no f****n’ joke. Suck a tail pipe, hang yourself…borrow a pistol from an NRA buddy, do something…rid the world of your evil f***in’ presence.”
———
Monsanto.
Time to fight Bach.
Doc
22:53 on
10 January, 2014
I have tried to think this through and have some observations, questions for you.
I’ve use Q&A only to distinguish my points from those you posted.
auldheid
21:26 on 10 January, 2014
Doc
I think its source is the SPFL and SFA looking at changing the rules to make it clearer what happens if a club enters administration and if it fails to exit it with a CVA.
Q&A if a CVA fails the club fails, Liquidation, the end of the club as a legal entity. Anything else is an incentive for a risk taker to take that risk.
This is of itself laudable as it makea it harder to conjure up 5 way agreements out of thin air in the absence of clarity.
However whilst wishing the protect or preserve a clubs continuity for football reasons the football authorities have to take care they do not scare off lenders.
Q&A.If the authorities allow this as a practise no lender will touch any football club, as the risk is huge because the sporting profit available is attractive. As a point towards this, what is Sevco’s credit limit! or recommendation from credit agencies, £50k I believe, with no actual credit facility. Would banks find a relatively small business where competitors overspend with little consequence attractive? Main point I’m making here is, if football authorities allow liquidated clubs to continue eventually banks will simply say, no more business with your sport.
Otherwise liquidation is seen as a fairly attractive escape route and no detterent to a club who do not uphold or value the concept of sporting integrity.
The rule should be simple. Use liquidation to shed debt and yer deid.
Q&A. Agreed, liquidated, finished as a club, no relegation, no return. And I am not restricting this to the current problems within Scottish football. But the last point you made seems contradictory to this.
However if a club undertakes to allocate an agreed % of income relative to its earning capacity to repay ALL creditors, then and only then has it a morally recognised claim to be seen as continous in football terms.
Q&A repayment of ALL creditors is a CVA. If the creditors agree to this then good, a CVA is agreed. Anything else is liquidation. An Football authority, post liquidation imposing such actions is trying to circumvent law.
That plus removal by at least one tier of whatever division of a league a club occupies, the points deduction approach can be circumvented in terms of dropping a tier, so remove it as a deterrent and make demotion a certainty and history retention dependent on paying yer bills.
That should satisy both sporting and lender needs.
Q&A am I missing something? If a company can have a CVA agreed it continues, if not, it goes the way of the dodo. Why would the football authorities try to circumvent that law and allow a liquidated club to continue with limited consequence?
CVA= continuation
Liquidation=Morte.
I realise you are explaining the SFA, SPFL’s position rather than your own, I hope my thoughts are coherent, at least.
My summation, Liquidation of company should mean end of club, they are one.
Anything else is trying to jump through hoops to keep clubs going when law, and to me, natural justice would see them gone.
If I have misunderstood, misconstrued, apologies.
The SFA are tying themselves in nots to allow a club to continue after liquidation! these new rules seem to be a retrospective attempt to justify this.
I look forward to your reply.
If I’m talking nonsense tell me!:-)
=========================
Where I differ slightly is that clubs will always survive in one shape or another and if the supporters of a club that has been liquidated want to have another go in a lower tier then that should be accommodated.
However the accommodation should be recognised and calling yourself the same entity not countenanced UNLESS a condition of acceptance is that you pay off all creditors over a period of time as a percentage of income.
The problem is that in writing the rules you have to be aware of sending out the wrong message to potential lenders, so there has to be a deterrent of real deterrent value but the reason that most clubs get liquidated is not that they cheated fellow clubs with dodgy tax arrangements, but simply overspending and poor financial management.
I think we have to be careful not to think every club will behave as Rangers did and that is where a bit of judgement in terms of encouraging a chastened club to get back on its feet comes in by providing a moral means of redemption.
The problem we face is the emotional one that what remains at Ibrox is anything but chastened.
This suggests that somewhere in the reasons for liquidation you make tax evasion an absolute dead end if that is the what has taken place.
I think one of the reasons that this subject causes so much feeling is that there has been no admission by those in the game responsible for what happened (Rangers and their SFA and SMSM buddies) of the sheer scale of the damage Rangers have done to our game with their help.
Zimmerman, Bill was the last living prophet I can think of.
Stripsearch for Boston.
RRC – True Repentance, what the feck you been guided by?
zimmerman
01:49 on 11 January, 2014
petec
why?
B3 sp3cific.
HAIR BAND ALERT, Monkey Business HAIR BAND ALERT.
petec
My conscience for the most part…
You awrite there?
I seemed to have rattled your cage, mate
See my advice at 01:19
:-)
DR M
23:03 on
10 January, 2014
I think this from UEFA Statutes answers you.
XII. RECOGNITION OF THE UEFA STATUTES, DISPUTES
1. Recognition of the UEFA Statutes
Recognition of the UEFA Statutes
Article 59
Associations’
Statutes
1 Each Member Association shall include in its statutes a
provision whereby it, its leagues, clubs, players and officials
agree to respect at all times the Statutes, regulations and
decisions of UEFA, and to recognise the jurisdiction of the Court of Arbitration for Sport
The rest does not copy so check the link
http://www.fpf.pt/Portals/0/Documentos/Institucional/EstReg/UEFA/Estatutos%20UEFA.pdf
Briefly UEFA Rules OK (when it wants to that is)
Vespacide
George Carlin was another.
If you want to go far in this world today lie to yourself your employers your children everyone you Love and everyone you come into contact with your Bank balance will swell and you will have done your duty.
Blind
Agreed Zimmerman, we have consensus.
RRC:
02:00 on 11 January, 2014
petec
My conscience for the most part…
You awrite there?
I seemed to have rattled your cage, mate
See my advice at 01:19
:-)
__________________________________________
cage tatatata rattling with such excellent Sonics.
wHEN you eventually GET THERE
Down – Stone the Crow
This might not be to everyone’s taste but I like it, Lamb of God Vigil.
petec
I’m sure one of us knows what your last post means
:-)
Vespacide
lol…sitting here with a Lamb of God t-shirt on would you believe.
RRC:
02:00 on 11 January, 2014
petec
My conscience for the most part…
You awrite there?
I seemed to have rattled your cage, mate
See my advice at 01:19
:-)
_____________________________
I’m not one for meeting people, I’ve stated this many Times on here. I remember meeting yer Guid Self at the brilliant Oscar bucket collection, very briefly. You might be right. I now know that all the Doors I opened up… can be closed. ;)
In the New York Groove lives a 2000 Man
Hail Hail.
RRC:
02:22 on 11 January, 2014
petec
I’m sure one of us knows what your last post means
:-)
———————————————————————————
I figure it ain’t you.
:-} seriously cool Zimmerman.
Wakey Wakey
Bohemian grove
alexjonescsc.
Evening Fholks,
Zimmerman et al, re Bill Hicks and George Carin, you have another member of the new fan club :)
Think I said it before here, but I remember the footage that Bill Hicks filmed of the Waco “Disaster”, at the scene with his companion, and they filmed live the footage of two US tanks moving in on the building, to the two doors, one at each end of the building, and unleashed flames into the building, setting it on fire and murdering all inside.
The footage was deleted from youtube a few years ago.
We can now add Bill’s name to the list he himself comprised:
[paraphrasing]
Jesus Christ – murdered
Martin Luther King – murdered
Malcolm X – murdered
John Lennon – murdered
JFK – murdered
Reagan – murdered.
Bill Hicks – ?
Ghandi – murdered
petec
Company B, my man, Company B
That was a day to remember always, was it not, bud?
I have spent a lot of the year gone by opening doors I had once closed.
My Dad, for one.
It’s all about The Doors…
The Changeling…
Bobby Sands loved hearing the Birds sing.
TJ Hooker?
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
RRC:
02:35 on 11 January, 2014
petec
Company B, my man, Company B
That was a day to remember always, was it not, bud?
I have spent a lot of the year gone by opening doors I had once closed.
My Dad, for one.
It’s all about The Doors…
The Changeling…
________________________________________
I have nae idea at all, at awe, what I do Know, that day helped me be a lot less selfish in my Own Life, I got a long way to go to just become a Filthy Rag, I am determined to become that filthy rag tho.
We are BORN into SLAVERY!
Great wee biog on Bill Hicks here:
http://geoffolson.com/page5/page8/page28/page28.html
“I laid in a field of green grass for four hours going ‘My God, I love everything.’ The heavens parted, God looked down and rained gifts of forgiveness, acceptance and eternal love from His unconditional heart, and I realized the true nature of my existence, of all our existence, is God’s perfect and holy sunship, that we are spirit, we are not bodies, we are mind, we are thoughts in God’s mind, his beloved children, and that has never changed, and anytime that you look through the body’s eyes you are seeing illusions… I’m glad they’re (mushrooms) against the law, because imagine how that would f### up this country.”
Bobby Sands and T.J. Hooker in the same sentence at last,
i can now go to sleep a happy man ;)
petec
“I am determined to become that filthy rag tho”
Is there a biblical reference within that statement?
…just curious
Bill Hick’s best quote imho
all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves.
And it’s goodnight from me
Anyway, it’s getting late, or early…
“Out here on the perimeter there are no stars
Out here, we is stoned, Immaculate”
Texas Radio & The Big Beat…