Today we have a guest writer, Archie Macpherson, Scotland’s most celebrated broadcaster. Archie started broadcasting for the BBC in the 1960s and was the authoritative voice of football commentaries, and comment, for decades thereafter. He was co-commentator for our first European Cup win and remains a regular newspaper columnist and TV contributor.
I had a brief conversation with Archie last month when he categorically stated that Jock Stein was best manager Scotland has ever produced was. Pleased, though I was, to hear this, in the light of accolades earned by Sir Alex Ferguson, I asked him if he could substantiate his claim.
These questions are enormously subjective but few have the breadth of perspective, not to mention the analytical capacity, to tackle this one properly. This is the article he offered to write for us on the subject:
Jock and Fergie, by Archie Macpherson
If there had been no Jock Stein there would have been no Sir Alex Ferguson. It may sound a contentious statement to make but even though it is tempting to play around with history according to your own beliefs and perceptions I would stand by that as a sound interpretation of the way the respective merits of these men can be set against each other.
It helps in this matter if you can lay aside the achievements of those men from the record books and instead consider their personalities and the context in which they plied their trade.
When Jock came to Celtic as manager in 9th March 1965, he fully understood from his past experience there as a player and coach that he would find a club desperate to achieve a commanding status in Scottish football. The frustration they felt only reflected that which their massive support similarly endured around that period. They were massive underachievers.
He also knew from his own background that his task would not simply be about selecting a team, then motivating them, but about radically overhauling the perception the public in general had about the club and which stemmed mainly from the constructs of the media.
It may be difficult for a current generation to fully comprehend this but Celtic then were simply perceived as bit players in a drama where the lead actor came from Govan and always took the curtain-calls. Stein changed all that. He took on the press-pack like he had been sent in from the city’s sanitation department to fumigate.
If you didn’t turn up on the dot for his press conferences then the door was slammed on your face no matter the size of your ego. His television interviews, unlike the passive posture of that likeable man his predecessor Jimmy McGrory, were often truculent and challenging. All of this concentrated the mind of those who wrote and spoke about Celtic. They would think twice about saying anything that might offend the big man. He was strengthening Celtic’s image and, as a by-product of that, securing the self-esteem within the playing staff which previously had been sadly lacking.
And where was Sir Alec at this time? He was watching, observing. I saw him sitting in the lounge of Malpensa Airport Milan in 1970, in the aftermath of the European Cup Final there, amidst thousands of Celtic supporters, which given his Rangers connections only indicated his deep interest in what Jock was doing.
Fergie to his credit was a learner. When he went to Old Trafford it was not to a club about which there was lack of public respect. It was initial lack of respect for himself which made him take up arms against his detractors. To go to a Fergie press-conference was to see a recreation of Jock at the height of his powers. And from being beside Jock in the dressing-room, and on the bench at Scotland games, he absorbed Jock’s handling of men which could range from wrath to wit. The so-called ‘hairdryer’ treatment Fergie handed out only simulated what Jock could do to make the walls of a dressing-room bulge when it got up his hump.
Where they differed enormously as men was that Jock did not harbour grudges in quite the same way as Fergie. Jock did have his difficulties with the BBC initially but never refused to deal with them. Fergie barred them for over a decade, then got an award from the same people. So I am suggesting that although you cannot compare the achievements made in entirely different footballing environments, Fergie served his apprenticeship in the Stein era by consequently adopting much of the big man’s methodology. Jock was the ice-breaker. Fergie was the follow up.
In that sense, as the one was indispensable to the success of the other, I rate Jock as the master of the two.
My thanks to Archie for his contribution.
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Bookworm
32 programmes by a bloke called Dave Roberts.
Brilliant book mate
Thebhoyfromoz
Ta for that video.
Just how good was cadets, what a wasted time.
I have tried to think this through and have some observations, questions for you.
I’ve use Q&A only to distinguish my points from those you posted.
auldheid
21:26 on 10 January, 2014
Doc
I think its source is the SPFL and SFA looking at changing the rules to make it clearer what happens if a club enters administration and if it fails to exit it with a CVA.
Q&A if a CVA fails the club fails, Liquidation, the end of the club as a legal entity. Anything else is an incentive for a risk taker to take that risk.
This is of itself laudable as it makea it harder to conjure up 5 way agreements out of thin air in the absence of clarity.
However whilst wishing the protect or preserve a clubs continuity for football reasons the football authorities have to take care they do not scare off lenders.
Q&A.If the authorities allow this as a practise no lender will touch any football club, as the risk is huge because the sporting profit available is attractive. As a point towards this, what is Sevco’s credit limit! or recommendation from credit agencies, £50k I believe, with no actual credit facility. Would banks find a relatively small business where competitors overspend with little consequence attractive? Main point I’m making here is, if football authorities allow liquidated clubs to continue eventually banks will simply say, no more business with your sport.
Otherwise liquidation is seen as a fairly attractive escape route and no detterent to a club who do not uphold or value the concept of sporting integrity.
The rule should be simple. Use liquidation to shed debt and yer deid.
Q&A. Agreed, liquidated, finished as a club, no relegation, no return. And I am not restricting this to the current problems within Scottish football. But the last point you made seems contradictory to this.
However if a club undertakes to allocate an agreed % of income relative to its earning capacity to repay ALL creditors, then and only then has it a morally recognised claim to be seen as continous in football terms.
Q&A repayment of ALL creditors is a CVA. If the creditors agree to this then good, a CVA is agreed. Anything else is liquidation. An Football authority, post liquidation imposing such actions is trying to circumvent law.
That plus removal by at least one tier of whatever division of a league a club occupies, the points deduction approach can be circumvented in terms of dropping a tier, so remove it as a deterrent and make demotion a certainty and history retention dependent on paying yer bills.
That should satisy both sporting and lender needs.
Q&A am I missing something? If a company can have a CVA agreed it continues, if not, it goes the way of the dodo. Why would the football authorities try to circumvent that law and allow a liquidated club to continue with limited consequence?
CVA= continuation
Liquidation=Morte.
I realise you are explaining the SFA, SPFL’s position rather than your own, I hope my thoughts are coherent, at least.
My summation, Liquidation of company should mean end of club, they are one.
Anything else is trying to jump through hoops to keep clubs going when law, and to me, natural justice would see them gone.
If I have misunderstood, misconstrued, apologies.
The SFA are tying themselves in nots to allow a club to continue after liquidation! these new rules seem to be a retrospective attempt to justify this.
I look forward to your reply.
If I’m talking nonsense tell me!:-)
fieldofdrams
22:42 on 10 January, 2014
thebhoyfromoz – awesome video mate, Mrs Fieldofdrams says thanks – she can go out in public again.
Remember Gerry McNee that night – ‘The new bhoy’s done it!!!’
Glad you enjoyed it.Have to confess that it is the first time i have seen the goals in that game!
The third goal was a belter.
Seem to recall that it was the first game at the new stadium that radio five live covered, apparently the transmission went down following the fifth goal due to the noise.
You having a go at Q7 Can I have Raspberries ?
Maley
McGrory
McNeil
Burghbhoy, I don’t know the book although I know of Dave Roberts. I believe he wrote a book about the worst football team in the world? Sevco??
Answers Q7
The Empire Exhibition Trophy – Willie Maley
The Coronation Cup – James McGrory
Dubai Champions Cup (1989) – Billy McNeill
I’ll try and post the question with the picture link again in a moment….
Bookworm, Bob Crampsey certainly was a gent. I met him once at a cricket match at Forthill in Broughty Ferry, the man was a walking Wisden! We shared our picnic with him and he sent my wife some flowers. Lovely man.
‘ The Rangers have simply gone!’……..Iain St John commentating on the Palm Sunday slaughter , the week after the St Patricks day massacre
Q 8 Click on the link below and name the Celts ( there are 11), from left to right, celebrating their Scottish Cup win (1 point for each and an Additional 10 points for all 11)
http://www.assetstorage.co.uk/AssetStorageService.svc/GetImageFriendly/721201975/700/700/0/0/1/80/ResizeBestFit/0/PressAssociation/33EE7A09C9C18132AEFA1BD984509E5E/soccer-scottish-cup-final
Burghbhoy, just looked it up. Like the idea, sounds good. The worst team was The Bromley Boys. Haven’t read it.
Phil, McNally , Vata, Marshall, Donnelly, McStay, Bonnar, , Falconer, Pierre
Phil O’Donnell
Mark McNally
Rudi Vata
Gordon Marshall
Simon Donnelly
Paul McStay
Pat Bonner
Brian O’Neil
Willie Falconer
Pierre Van Hooijdonk
only 10 in photo
Auldheid
Does a countries football association have the power to change or make up new rules without agreement from UEFA.
I would have thought all association rules should be the same and set by the governing body.
Phil O’Donnell, Mark McNally, ??, Gordon Marshall, Simon Donnelly, Paul McStay, ??, ??
O’donnell
McNally
Vata
McStay
Bonner
Falconer
O’neill
Van Hoodijok
Donnelly
Marshall
There’s only ten
Brian O’Neil!!!!!!!
Good night all
BIG-CUP-WINNERS thank you for your efforts.
————–
eddieinkirkmichael
21:50 on
10 January, 2014
BCW I am a terrible speller and hibs to me is obviously meant to be Orlando Lions ;)
Now that made me laugh :))
Can only see 10 in the photo
Phil O’Donnell
Mark McNally
Rudi Vata
Gordon Marshall
Barry Elliott
Packie Bonner
Paul McStay
Brian O’Neill
Willie Falconer
Big Pierre
fieldofdrams, indeed he was. And of course he was Brain of Britain also. Knew his music too. Visited him once and he was listening to Buena Vista Social Club.
doc
22:49 on 10 January, 2014
And then Bed.
Until we meet again…
Keep the Faith!
Hail Hail!
Phil, McNaly , Vata, Marshall, Donelly, McStay, Bonnar, , Falconer, Pierre, O’neil
POD, McNally Vata Marshall Donnelly The Maestro Bonner O’Neil Falconer Pierre – can only see 10 in the pic
The bookworm
Yeah mate great book, stumbled on it by accident , well worth a read.
LennyBhoy, laters bud.
Is that someone behind Phil?
The 11th is the Celtic legend, Shoulder!:-)
My brother phoned me that night asking what happened when GC was through because the radio went dead. I had the great pleasure of telling him we blew the radio away.
Yeah but who
Viewfaethewindae
U may have a point mate, I think that arm is the late great TB enjoying his first cup final win
TB
I spoke to ACGR today, for those who saw his starting 11 last night, subs were also used!
Charlie Nic shoulder???????????????????????????????????
Phil O’Donnell
Mark McNally
Rudi Vata
Gordon Marshall
Barry Elliott
Packie Bonner
Paul McStay
Brian O’Neill
Willie Falconer
Big Pierre
Burghbhoy
23:10 on
10 January, 2014
Could be
Could be Hoopy too though!
Could also be that Rod Stewart impersonator from the Hampdump year!
Is it Charlie Nicholas?