Someone kindly directed me to the audio file from BBC Radio Scotland’s Sportsound programme last night. Under recent scrutiny for his role, while general secretary and director of Rangers, in the alleged improper registrations of Rangers players with the SFA, he gave BBC reporter, Chick Young his thoughts on the matter.
While the BBC gave a robust defence of Mr Ogilvie stating that he was not in any way guilty of wrong-doing in relation to tax matters, which I am happy to accept, the entire debate never touched the question which has the potential to invalidate over a decade’s worth of football results.
Article 12.1 of the SFA’s Articles of Association states, “all payments, whether made by the club or otherwise, which are to be made to a player solely relating to his playing activities must be fully recorded”. The redacted EBT agreement published last month by The Sun suggested Rangers would pay the player £1200 appearance money.
The SFA should have no interest in whether tax is due on this money, which is a matter for HM Revenue and Customs, they should only be concerned as to whether Rangers submitted details to the SFA of any payments made in connection to football, including appearance money.
My Young, perhaps trying to help, explained that Mr Ogilvie, as company secretary until 2002, had administrative responsibilities, but took on a legislative role on becoming general secretary that year. This suggests Mr Ogilvie had primary responsibility to ensure Rangers complied with the necessary legislative requirements, including registering payments to players.
Should have mentioned earlier, Mr Young suggested Rangers EBTs “could actually prove, bizarrely, to be one of the great coups of all time”.
He’s not wrong there.
We will address comments by Sir David Murray, widely reported this morning, later.
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Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire on 14 March,
Mt mate calls the Orange Walk the biggest gay pride parade in Scotland, in honour of King Billy’s fondness for other gentlemen :-)
BT
Will find out and text you later.
Battered bunnet
Superb
All is required now would be the original document.
Their rules condem them guilty IMHO.
Jam67
“However much you deny the truth, the truth goes on existing.”
– George Orwell (from “A Collection of Essays”)
Rieperman @ 11.06
Mate i was just stating how i see the outcome. I have no proof other than the gut feeling that the SFA will never take titles off the huns. They would rather photoshop docs than do that. At this stage im stunned that after 4 weeks of admin the only real damage they have taken is points loss and a couple of bench warmers leaving. The whole saga stinks and depresses me.
RaRaRasputin on 14 March, 2012 at 11:25 said:
To win the EBT case, the payments to players must be shown to be non-contractual, discretionary and made by a third party. If this is the case, these payments by definition must not have been declared by Rangers to the SFA.
If the payments were declared to the SFA then they were clearly contractual, non-discretionary and not from a third party.
———————–
OK, so can I assume then, that if the EBT case has got this far, then the contracts must NOT have been declared to the SFA?
So if the SFA now wanted to protect Rangers, by claiming that the payments WERE declared according to rules, then they CAN’T, at least not without making themselves look very stupid?
Mort on 14 March, 2012 at 10:48 said:
A company secretary is the most important role in a company.
Mort, you’re not a company secretary by any chance are you? ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=v0FVm_H_D18
IPAD Users …. young and Old please note.
HAil Hail
TBB
I see a possible ‘get out’ for Mr Ogilvie …
As you kindly showed, Rule 4 states that agreements ‘shall be signed by the player and by the secretary’.
So it doesn’t say ‘Club Secretary’ or ‘Company Secretary’, so C.O. is home alone since, as others have mentioned, CO was merely a member of the typing pool, ergo a humble secretary.
[You can take that to the Bank, Chic.]
wee chico is greetin aboot this he must be in the same lodge
ive never heard a “journo” defend someone so passionately
baks again the wall stuff fae laptop loyal they even had there biggest star murray oot talkin pish to his selected lamb lovers
as phil said
game on
Stuck between a rock and a hard place!
Your Honour I never shot David, because at the time he was shot I was actually shooting Chris!!!
I think that just about sums it up. :-)
Henriks Sombrero on 14 March, 2012 at 10:41 said:
join the cause.
Thanks for the link…I’ve joined and placed a Facebook “like” and post on my page…won’t get much play in Canada amongst my friends, but I have explained to them some of the more salient points on the issue…can easily draw some comparisons to the treatment of blacks in the southern US over decades…
…we have a big tent…room enough for all…we are one with a common theme…
Hail Hail!
Dubaibhoy
Naw but doing a course on it at the minute. Very illuminating what a company secretary should do. If Campbell Ogilvie was doing the job and getting paid very well to do it, without actually having to do any of the things a company secretary should do (if you believe Chico and SDM) then Craig Whyte was not the first to “dupe” SDM.
Mort
Boys it’ll be good listening to Clyde and Radio Scotland with the headline, Murray was duped.
Thanks to Celtic fanzone they came up with this wee nugget.
“I was duped. My advisers were duped. The shareholders were duped”
This from a man who was quite good at ‘duping’ over the years.
Does he not remember Alistair ‘No Surrender’ Johnson and the rest of the takeover panel telling him not to touch Craig Whyte with a bargepole?
And guess what he didn’t listen, but hey ho he was duped.
Ah, the smoothest of gear changes as we start to get up some speed this morning…
So, David Murray eventually sticks his head above the parapet – obviously nothing to do with Channel 4 appearing on the horizon.
One question – if Mark Daly from the BBC could find out about Craig Whyte’s disqualification, why was Murray unable to?
Celtic Football Club will be asking for Titles to be wiped if found guilty.
Aw Naw Superb Video por cierto..
Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo on 14 March, 2012 at 12:06 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=v0FVm_H_D18
IPAD Users …. young and Old please note.
HAil Hail
********
You’re getting at me, aren’t you?
Go on admit it!
That is brilliant.
Damn paper trail…
The biggest problem with exclusive jobs for the boys blazer wearing funny handshaking shadowy organisations like the SFA is secrecy- I thought they were going to modernise and become more “transparent”. Are a few quotes on a twitter page the full extent of SFA modernisation? Captain Nemo’s investigation should have been made available in the public domain if we are striving for transparency. The problem with secrecy is that too many things can be hidden; it discourages accountability; it encourages self interest at the expense of the common good; it causes and sustains systemic corruption by providing it with an environment in which it is native…in short: secret organisations are opposed to democracy.
THE SMOKING GUN
http://kerrydalestreet.co.uk/topic/8647372/1218/
Canamalar you looking for tips for Cheltenham
Silly Boy
Here we go
Four commanders in first race (also given Daffern Seal in that race but prefer Four Commanders)
Short Price double Grand Crus and Sizing Europe
in the Coral Cup (4.00)Poole Master each way and in the 4.40 Kazlian each way (both Mr Pipes horses)
Finally New Years Eve in the last
Bon chance mes ami
anyone have a link to Phil’s article
gsu
O.G.Rafferty
Dig,dig dig,dig…………ah the mother lode?
Jam67
hen1rik on 14 March, 2012 at 12:11 said:
Yeah: Murray was duped: duped by his own chicanery.
Sparkleghirl,
thats a horrible thought, so the spl must actually wait for the outcome of the tribunal
The Battered Bunnet 11:14
Lol!
Send that to the C4 reporter.
As I understand it if the EBT was administered correctly it would have been wholly discretionary, therefore not related to playing football at all. If administered correctly therefore it would not have to have been disclosed to the SFA/SPL as payments are not contractual/related to football.
If administered correctly the Tribunal would very probably find in Rangers favour and there would be no case to answer at the SFA.
The nightmare scenario for ice cream aficionados.
The tribunal will have heard and seen lots of evidence, some documentary, some analytical, some testimony.
Documentary: Letters of intent, guarantees, conditional nature of payments.
Analytical: Did payments spike or dip during periods of injury versus continual appearances, correlate to victories, trophies, qualifications, or for individuals around the goals scored.conceded stats?
Testimony: Word of mouth, understanding, anecdotal.
If the documentary evidence is the ruin of Rangers it will not only see the Big Case lump upwards of £49m to the rising list of creditors but will see them stripped of all results and gongs for a decade and more as the SPL/SFA will be able to do nothing other than that. It will leave most in no doubt that in fact the period of cheating goes back two decades.
I have no idea how it will play out but it may be that in fact the weight of anecdotal and analytical evidence carries the day for HMRC.
Now where would that leave the SPL? They say they will rely on the FTT(T) Tribunal decision. How would a decision that is not based on documentary evidence fit with their rules? It doesn’t.
What if the FTT(T) does find that there is documentary evidence of sorts but the substance over form rules the day since the payments flat lined throughout and cannot be tied to playing football? What does the SPL do then?
The fact is the SPL (only one of the 5 competitions Rangers has played in over the period) has to conduct its own investigation, it has to be thorough and independent, and the SFA and/or SFL must also conduct its own since Rangers played in at least 4 other competitions.
There is not nearly enough correlation between the issues at stake for football as there is for tax for one to feed the other, it is as simple as that.
I have a growing concern that Stewart Regan (who has been given a lot of slack) is actually as spineless as Neil Doncaster.
When history judges them I hope for their sake that it does not describe to their Children and Grandchildren men who were right there when the biggest story in Scottish football broke, and they shirked the tackle. I fear it will.
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire on 14 March, 2012 at 12:19 said:
Is that why they’re refusing to comment beforehand then?
Does the owner of Sale Sharks smell blood at Ibrox?
Sheik Yerbouti on 14 March, 2012 at 12:16 said:
Can you paste the Kerrydale content – I cannot access from work – many thanks, in advance.
HH
TLK
blantyrekev, thanks
Rangers Be Aware!
Scottish business man Brian Kennedy is stepping up his bid to buy Glasgow Rangers, with the final bids needing to be into the administrator by the 16th of March Kennedy has put forward a bid which he has called ‘fair’.
Kennedy feels that his bid will not be the strongest stating that the bid is a ‘fallback option’ if the creditors do not agree with any other bids.
Kennedy has told BBC Scotland ‘I don’t really want to buy the club, but I don’t want to see Rangers die, I’ve said from the start that if the administrators view my offer as the best one for the club, I’m happy to take it on. But I’ll be equally happy if someone else can take it on.’
Kennedy who owns Sale Sharks is pondering a move for the club but with competition from Middle Eastern companies he feels that his offer may fall short of the mark.
As Stockport fans know Kennedy has owned a football club before when he took over at Stockport before selling his shares to The Supporters Trust in 2003. Kennedy now owns Sale Sharks and EP and is also a successful business man.
Good luck
“Paper Trail”? No, its origami por cierto…
CELTIC have made an audacious bid to land £20m rated Benfica striker Lorenzo Melgarejo on loan for next season!
The 21 year old Paraguayan international who cost the Superliga giants just £1m last year is currently farmed out to Portuguese club Pacos Ferreira where he has also caught the eye of Everton and Hannover by scoring goals for fun.
But Benfica who have slapped the massive price tag on his head to fend off would be buyers admit they could lend him out again to gain more european experience.
Celtic scouts watched him play last weekend and have asked to be kept in form with a view to the Hoops involvement in the Champions League next season.
A Benfica source said : It is up to our coach what happens to Lorenzo . He either returns to us or he is allowed to gain more experience on loan elsewhere. A decision will be made before the summer. “
jungle jam67, 12:19
Oh yes, much digging is being done. And some fine treasure has been discovered only this morning
Sir David Murray uses words like a squid uses ink.
Succulent calamari, anyone? (thumbsup)
brucecassavetes,
he might be too ‘foreign’ to own Rangers if the final moonbeams was anything to go by.