I was speaking to someone with only a notional interest in football last week who complained about football fans logic on several fronts including the notion of History.
I was asked, “What does it matter if a Rangers Newco playing at Ibrox being supported by the same people have an intangible claim to what happened in the past?
“Their memories remain, they cannot relive the past, what matters most is the future.”
Only a non-football fan could think like this, of course. History is the context for whatever happens today, without it, the game is diminished, but we are now in a fascinating debate. In practical terms, Rangers history could become quite a burden with the next few weeks.
The SPL are currently undertaking an inquiry into alleged illegal registration of players at Rangers during the 13 years before Craig Whyte rescued the club from the old board. Hundreds of football matches could have been played, many trophies ‘won’ with footballers ineligible to play.
If these allegations are proven, games involving ineligible players will be marked as 3-0 defeats. So much for the history, but what about the punishment?
Our friends at STV suggest that the SPL hold the view that the transfer of a league share from a liquidated company to a Newco would inherit historical rights from the liquidated party’s past. For Rangers Newco, this would include penalties for around 500 games played by Rangers FC with invalidly registered footballers.
The tariff of which could sink even the healthiest balance sheet.
But still, if liquidated, Rangers FC, founded around 1872 and incorporated in 1899 would cease. Newco can play wherever they like, it would be a new club. The law would protect it from misdeeds of the old company while any assets, such as the badge design, film archive or historic Arsenal shares could be purchased by any third party, including Newco. And before you bid, owning the badge design does not make you Rangers any more than if you acquired Rangers SPL share.
We’ve been told you can buy and sell history in recent weeks which is clearly nonsense but in finding a path through this subject you need to ask what is in the power of each and any organisation or group to affirm.
The SPL can transfer a share in the league and, in conjunction with the SFA, player registrations. Both can also impose outstanding disciplinary measures.
Duff and Phelps can sell the badge design independent of the league share.
Craig Whyte can sell the stadium independent of all of the above.
No one can sell, buy or transfer 140 years of history, which is why football fans recoil at suggestions of a Newco replacing their team.
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pedrocaravanachio67 on 12 April, 2012 at 22:22 said:
Re the last game ever against them on the 29th, we need the £40k paid first, then paid for the game in full, before one of their fans enters the stadium.
More than happy for them to start their ludicrous boycott of away games at that game; we could have a real party… and also take the opportunity to tell the SPL exactly what we think of their proposals to be discussed the following day
I feel better already ! :-)
t.v money brings in about 1.5 million a year to most clubs, how much do fans hand over, for say a hibs a aberdeen or a hearts maybe 7-10 million. maybe supporters associations could remind their clubs of this fact. all it would take is a vote and a letter to stop this in its tracks, no way will chairman’s commit suicide
lucky cody on 12 April, 2012 at 21:28 said:
The CST/CSA and other Groups of Celtic supporters have experience of working together and with Celtic on common cause. I speak with experience and hope that reassures you.
What is new here is involving other Trusts and already I see contact being made via Twitter as long as we focus on what unites us and put aside differences whilt the common objective is pursued the Supporters Trusts and Associtaions will be difficult to ignore in PT terms.
The Club Charimen do not pay players wages, supporters do and we hand over that power as each club pursues success, but on a commom cause we can take that power back.
Glasgow Celtic Champions
P G
What Little Sisters was that. Robroyston????
POTM Brown
POTY Mulgrew.
MOTY Neil Lennon
Dare I say it.
Rangers’ fans threat of a boycott has stolen a march on what all the rest of the fans in the SPL should do.
For the first time they are taking the lead. We are sitting on our hands.
James forrest..excellent as per usual.
Hh
Quick question folks, has anything ever became of the registration/ contracts of McGregor ect, and them being owned by a third party?
Or is this tied into the EBT case?
Thanks in advance.
As for Hun punishment/fate…
I’d like to see them remain in SPL. I’d like them to agree a 25 year repayment plan – £6m/ year.
No point deduction no Funding reduction just agree to pay back.
I am Neil Lennon – LTPS on 13 April, 2012 at 00:01 said:
To what purpose? To hurt clubs voting for proposals that could allow them to stay in the SPL.?
An incredibly stupid ill thought out reaction on their part.
In the deaths section of the Coatbridge & Airdrie Advertiser this week.
Thomas Linnen.
Peacefully at Wishaw Hospital on 7th of April 2012 when Celtic secured the title
YNWA Tommy. RIP.
CultsBhoy loves being 1st on 13 April, 2012 at 00:12 said:
As for Hun punishment/fate…
I’d like to see them remain in SPL. I’d like them to agree a 25 year repayment plan – £6m/ year.
No point deduction no Funding reduction just agree to pay back.
=====================
Brave of you to make that statement at this time in the morning !!
I have been thinking along the same lines for a few weeks. Liquidation – They start again and after a couple of years they are the old RFC competing with us but minus the huge debt.
I think I prefer the moral debt paying Rankers struggling on for years to come.
Either way it’s a win-win situation for us I suppose but I reckon they are certainties to liquidate.
Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but anyone got a link to the discussion on referees on shortbread on Wed night? could only find a 38 min podcast which – oddly – didn’t include the discussion with Charlie Richmond.
Percy Vere on 13 April, 2012 at 00:31 said:
Apologies if this has been asked and answered, but anyone got a link to the discussion on referees on shortbread on Wed night? could only find a 38 min podcast which – oddly – didn’t include the discussion with Charlie Richmond.
================
I think it was Tuesday night.
I was judged to have crossed boundaries on Jim Spence’s blog today. I only checked my mails a short while ago. I’ll repeat verbatim the post.
“You cannot make rules up as you go along, which seems to be the case in Scotland. Anything to do with Rangers is treated differently to any other club—witness Neil Doncaster’s treatment and castigation of Hearts compared to the present situation with Rangers. What about all the small businesses that are owed money and could go to the wall? Forget about them? What if Ross County are denied promotion because their ground doesn’t come up to “standard”? The skew in Ranger’s favour from all sections of the media and football authorities is unbelievable. What should any European or UK onlooker make of it? What should the taxpayer make of it? Football should be seen to be fair to all. This is corruption on a massive scale, seemingly encouraged by Salmond and the SNP. The whole structure, SPL, SFA, SFL, needs stripped out and rebuilt from top to bottom. I suggest starting with referees imported from Europe, and an interim body set up to oversee the overhaul of Scottish football. Otherwise it will be seen just as it is—-corruption and farce. Succulent lamb, anyone?
Let’s say…. 150,000 football fans from Celtic to Dunfermline all grouped together and demanded that There should be no new cheats charter and no newco in the SPL next season ….
Threatening that there shall be newco in SPL or we will cancel our sky sports subscriptions?
Did you know that 150,000 lost sky sports subscribers will cost sky £180m over 5 years?
Evenin fholks.
Am catching up and am at top of Page 6, so mibbes this has been discussed.
Who’s the MIB for the mini-huns game?
My instincts are screaming out that they will NOT let us win anything more than the league this season, but with the recent breaking of ranks among them, I wonder if that changes the landscape somewhat?
SFA house of cards is falling down imo, and this will be the REAL big story over and above the stupid huns. But will the MIBbery continue blatantly? I think it will. It’s what they do. Cos they are stupid.
If they cheat us out of the double, my firm belief is that the SFA will be hastening their own demise.
Poetry in motion. Who’ll be the next referee to jump the sinking ship? While Gollum plays his fiddle. Cue Dallas end titles.
Anyone see any falsehoods in the post I sent to Jim Spence, who I think is one of the better guys? Or is BBC Scotland the same as the old BBC N. Ireland was–a mouthpiece for the “majority” even if the “majority” hadn’t as much as a moral between them? I would expect the mods to descend on me if I’m wrong.
jude2005 is Neil Lennon \o/ on 13 April, 2012 at 00:23 said:
Somebody posted a photograph of that on Twitter today. A lovely touch for a Dad who I would imagine was a Celtic Fan.
I noticed that the newspaper had printed it as “Celtic tile” and not “Celtic title”. Probably a bitter hun who works at the newspaper’s sad joke or me just being paranoid over a spelling mistake.
reilly 1926 , that might explain it. Either way I think they cut a discussion on refs from Wed podcast, as they mentioned it was going to be the next topic & it wasn’t. Thanks, though, I’ll try Tuesday’s podcast.
Reilly 1926, good shout. Listening to it now.
HH
PV
Apologies if I have missed earlier posts.
We know some things to be true but we need to be able to prove them to be so … and if we do then they really will blow the whole game apart.
nightshift fill yer boots.
http://soundcloud.com/jinkylarsson
Euan Norris will referee the other semi-final between Celtic and Heart of Midlothian on the Sunday. The assistants for this match are Willie Conquer and Graeme Leslie, with Stephen Finnie the fourth official.
————————-
We all know Norris’ history of penalties i think it was 5 penalties in 3 games for thems.
Why does the name Willie Conquer ring a bell?
HH
It seems clear that the majority of SPL fans want the huns sent to Div3.
The only club making a stance against this is our own (and, er, apparently the stupid huns as well….).
Celtic have a chance to unite the support of these clubs supporters and make the likes of Yorkston, and the other hun fuds running other SPL clubs, listen to their supporters.
There’s a lot to be played out here, and Doncaster’s news yesterday may well work in our favour by uniting the SPL supporters against the huns to ensure they are suitably punished, whatever they decide to phoenix themselves as.
If they do make it back to the SPL they’ll no doubt stick 3 more stars on their shirts, giving them a total of 8 fake stars. And then they’ll add a ninth in reward for the 8. Which will be rounded up to 10 due to them realising that the decimal system has just been introduced.
One club who has a LOT to be angry about is surely Aberdeen.
They hit a rapid downward spiral, as did we, when Minty brought in his unique financing skills to what was just a mid-table club.
The Aberdeen supporters have proved to stick by their team, whereas the huns will bail at the drop of a hat, and seek excuses to riot elsewhere.
Hibs also have a lot to complain about. Are they about to be punished for trying to manage their club within its means??
Other clubs and football in associations in Europe have already lodged complaints.
Doncaster can do what he wants.
Ding dong, the huns are deid, the wicked huns are deid.
It’s the SFA that are next :))
Fortunes favour
“It seems clear that the majority of SPL fans want the huns sent to Div3. The only club making a stance against this is our own”
What’s our stance?
Meanwhile 32 people a week are dying in the UK directly as a result of this ConDem government’s cuts. (even The Mirror & The Daily Mail! are up in arms about this)
Rankers fall into the same bracket as the ConDems. Heartless lying fascists who cannae pay their bills,but still want to swill tax-free champagne.
Animals all.
Bloke109
The Club’s? We don’t officially know, do we? But we the supporters obviously want them gone. So any newco in that sense must start afresh.
Unofficial stance? Well, ask Dermot Desmond how much money he has lost in CL revenue since he joined us.
Bloke109
Apols, reading back see what you’re getting at.
The only outlet that I’ve heard confirming the club are against Doncaster’s proposals are the BBC.
Celtic have made no comment on it that I know of.
I think it’s safe to assume this is correct, but may be proved wrong. There may be a lot more behind this than meets the eye (well, of course there is). Is this what you’re getting at?
Fortunes favour
Sorry, misunderstood you – thought I’d missed something official.
Bloke109
No apols necessary. It’s what we’re all waiting on. But I would say, silence has been our game in recent years.
imo the Celtic board members are looking at the financial situation first and foremost, and I don’t believe that this would mean them looking for a parachute hun club to maintain old firm finances. Rather, this situation is a massive vehicle for changes to a climate of chicanery that has seen us lose millions upon millions every year to sustain hunnery.
I find myself defending the board again after being annoyed at their failure to defend the support in the past year. Hoping they don’t let me down, but also seeing the financial motivation for them backing up my optimism.
Fortunes
Re Celtic’s postion officially, I demand they say nothing! There’ll be plenty to say at the right moment. The moment of an SPL vote for example, the liquidation event when it happens, the newco proposals, the SPL/SFA punishment, UEFA intervention – best thing to say is say nothing.
Well bhoys operation save the Hun went active Tuesday .
The good old spl and sfa join to give them even more assistance.
How anyone one can continue to pay to fund a rigged set up is beyond belief and some are prepared to continue to support the cheats charter.Even fans from various spl clubs understand fair play and integrity over blind love for there club.If Neil Doncaster thinks his plan is going to save the cheats then it will drag the whole of Scottish football to the grave.The Celtic plc must make a stand here and now and show the rest of the clubs that sporting integrity is paramount.If this newco is put into the spl then the game is well and truly up sh@t creek without a paddle.
How long now to the FTT case result ?
How long now to the spl investigation into 2 contract ?
And all Neil Doncaster and Stewart regan are worried about is new rules if a newco is to gain entry to the spl.
There will be no feckin teams left in Scotland if they allow ra gers to stiff all their creditors once the banks and hmrc demand payment in full now.
Jam67
Bloke109
I think so too….but it’s heavy going waiting :)
The congrats to Ross County seemed to pre-empt the madness of King Doncaster.
Feck knows where it’s going. I think I share the same thoughts as yourself.
But do have a shadow of doubt as per Awe Naw and Canamlar on this.
Where I disagree with them is that Dermot has lost a rake of money due to hun chicanery. I don’t think he’ll be comfortable letting them continue Scot-free to do it again for the sake of some TV money. I give them more credit than that, and see them seeing the opportunity to take down the REAL cause of our pain, the SFA.
And at the moment, there seems no way out for them. Their grave is dug. This is the bigger picture as far as I’m concerned. The SFA. Deid as a dodo.
Fortunes Favour Mibbes on 13 April, 2012 at 02:09 said:
I have had a couple of indications that your fears are unfounded.
Auldheid
Busy night so just catching up.
Do you know, are the CST and CSA going to propose any sort of boycott and will they be seeking the clubs support in this?
I have a recurring image in my head. Hyman Roth Birthday cake being sliced on a veranda in Cuba, while Michael Corleone looks on and listens to the Spin.
Now I am not saying who represents Hyman, Michael or even Freddo, but while History cannot be bought, sold or transferred……
It can be rewritten.
Roll on the Revolution….