Who made the poppy a political symbol? For those who collected the flower from fields in France 90 years ago and many bereaved relatives at home it was a symbol of respect for loved ones lost, but it can be used politically and has been shamelessly politicised in Scotland in recent years, where the symbol of national loss has been exploited.
In itself, the poppy is not political, it occupies the same territory as the black armband, but even this worldwide symbol of respect has been exploited for political ends by footballers in the past.
I can understand why many in England are furious that Fifa consider the poppy a political symbol and have banned England for wearing it against Spain this week, but since a few live to exploit the flower for political ends, the Fifa decision is correct.
Before making the decision someone at Fifa would have undertaken cursory research into the subject. Searching Google for “poppy football” a few weeks ago would have returned this (now archived) result. I’m sure you recall; a banner at Celtic Park, which didn’t make the news on the day it was displayed, or on the next day, was badgered by someone into the news on day three. Celtic were the target of that exercise, the England team are now collateral damage.
977 Comments- Pages:
- «
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
- 5
- 6
- 7
- ...
- 23
- »
http://thefrontofthebus.blogspot.com/2011/11/when-crowds-were-always-38000.html
DBBIA
Why did ole Bobby D change his name?
jude2005 is Neil Lennon – How come you’re called Jude 2005 anyway?
Are you like Gerry Butler’s Dracula 2000? (thumbsup)
Bloody Hell – I promised I wouldn’t as well…..
For me, the poppy and Remembrance Sunday etc is entirely a personal thing. Entirely.
If I (or you) choose to remember in a different or personal way, or not at all, that is fine.
If you will not allow other people the same courtesy it says a whole lot about you.
People who hijack the poppy for other reasons are beyond contempt. And that last statement doesn’t just apply to the Huns or politicians.
I am off out for a bit of “lunch” now – I expect my already poor typing to have deteriorated on my return.
Philvis – fair play to you.
Interesting…
Celtic have issued a statement, following speculation that they would support a hypothetical Rangers “phoenix” company, saying “internet rumours” were not true.
Without acknowledging the specific rumours, the club described them as “nonsense” and accused those pushing the story of misleading the club’s support.
Using their official Facebook page, the Parkhead club issued a brief statement on Tuesday evening.
It read: “In response to today’s Celtic internet rumours, a spokesman for the Club said: ‘The story is absolute nonsense and it’s disappointing that the Celtic supporters have been misled in this way’.”
While the rumour being referred to was not specified, social media sites and football forums on Tuesday carried discussion of a blog claiming that Celtic had considered a hypothetical situation where Rangers entered administration and used a “phoenix” company to apply to re-enter Scottish football competitions.
The blog claimed that Celtic sources had said that they would support any application made by a new Rangers company.
Comments on Celtic’s Facebook page indicated that their statement was taken by the club’s fans to be a rejection of this claim.
While Celtic have a representative on the SPL board, decisions regarding any transfer of an SPL member’s share, and any conditions placed on the transfer, are taken collectively by the board.
The SPL board is currently comprised of Ralph Topping (SPL chairman), Neil Doncaster (SPL chief executive), Eric Riley (Celtic), Stephen Thompson (Dundee United), Derek Weir (Motherwell) and Steven Brown (St Johnstone). Topping has the casting vote in the event of a split decision.
philvisreturns says:
9 November, 2011 at 12:49
Its already there and of course its not a flower but you know what I meant
Phil are you on strike at the end of the month ?
Make the greedy pay for the clean up
Hail Hail
dirtymac says @ 12:45
>> I think the qualifier would be that the EBTs were operated illegally – was Juninho’s?
We paid all that was due therefore the EBT was legal. However, one of the discussions last night was that a player cannot receive payments for playing football other than from the club; i.e. not from an independent body. By doing so the player would be ineligable.
I think that leads to Juninho being in the clear, but who knows.
Paul67
Manipulation of something laudable for political purposes indeed, and good to see FIFA making a stand.
Readers might find this reminder that appeared in Not The View last November of interest and a reminder of how Celtic were set up by those in charge at the time.
Not The View Nov 2010
On 8th October (2010) Celtic made an announcement where they confirmed that Poppyscotland had requested through the SPL that all clubs wear the poppy on the shirt during the weekend fixtures of 13th/14th November 2010 around Remembrance Sunday.
The full text of the announcement can be found at
http://www.celticfc.net/news/stories/news_081010170000.aspx
Normally this would be the signal for the annual circus starring the Scottish media and the Celtic support to come to town where the former attacked the latter whilst the latter fought amongst themselves. Thankfully the final paragraph in bold for emphasis in the statement that says
“In light of Poppyscotland’s decision to carry out alternative Remembrance activities from next year, Celtic Football Club has decided that it will be giving another charity the opportunity to feature on the Celtic shirt in 2011 to raise awareness of their work. Further details of this will be announced in due course.”
suggests that this is the last time the circus will come to town.
It is ironic in the extreme that an event that is supposed to commemorate the memory of the many that died to end conflict has itself been such a major source of it. It is an episode in Scottish social history that shames Scotland and the media who used it to sell papers, increase phone in figures, maximise revenue and attack Celtic.
Celtic too have to take some criticism for not foreseeing how divisive the PoppyScotland approach to the SPL would be, particularly to our Irish support who, for their own good reasons, did not want to remember, most certainly did not want to have to remember and felt the form of remembrance in the wearing of symbolic poppy on the Celtic jersey was a denial of the freedom of choice that those who died fought to protect as well as trampling on the rights they have been struggling for since the sixties.
They were not alone in some of their feelings although they too must recognise that not all Celtic supporters have had the same family history to shape their views. Respect all round is required.
PoppyScotland too should take pause to reflect if they had been far seeing enough and given enough thought to what they were asking of Celtic, why they asked it and if the charity they represent was best served by this idea. Perhaps they already have.
As for the Scottish media their response to the sounds of protest that came from some of the Celtic support was probably their most shameful hour (until the last three weeks) and hopefully in the third year after the disrespectful frenzy that filled the newspapers and air waves, they will mute or better still drop their criticism entirely and appreciate that not everyone wants to remember in the same way and most do not want the form of remembrance forced on them through guilt or conformity. A memory coerced is not a memory worth having.
For the whole Celtic support, whilst there is another year of the circus to endure, perhaps the knowledge it is the last and perhaps also from a degree of poppy fatigue, we will see this year’s Remembrance Sunday on 14th September at St Mirren pass quietly and respectfully not just in memory of the dead but more importantly out of respect for what they died for – a peaceful world.
The first Poppy Circus of 2008 inspired the following in its aftermath, let’s hope the message it contains inspires more fitting ways to remember and respect in the future those who died in the past.
Paying Respect – Speaking for The Dead
From the land of beyond
I watch and shake my head
At those fighting to pay respect to my sacrifice
In the way that they think respect should be paid to the dead.
I’m an unknown soldier killed in a trench somewhere
Bled to death as I watched rats drink from my ebbing earth life.
I died in the hope that all fighting would stop
NO MORE WAR.
But war takes many forms
It is not all bullets and shells
It’s not always fought in trenches either
Its most common battlefield is in the heart and minds of men.
In the last few days I have witnessed a battlefield,
I have watched the team I support dragged through the mud
By the mistaken, who have turned what was intended as a show of respect
Into yet another battlefield.
You do not respect me when you wear a poppy
You do not respect me when you have a minute’s silence
You do not respect me when you have a minute’s applause
You do not respect me when you walk out
You especially do not respect me when you try to divide a community
Then a country
With spurious arguments of what constitutes respect
And then broadcast those views to the nation
In radio and newspapers
In a manner and tone that encourages division
Division that becomes a cause of
MORE WAR.
If you think that all these are respect
You are among the mistaken.
The Poppy, the minute’s silence, the minute’s applause
These are all SYMBOLS
They have become empty symbols
Ditch them in the trench in which I died.
If you want to truly respect me
Remember why I died
LEST YOU FORGET
It was so that there would be
NO MORE WAR
And let NO MORE WAR break out
In the only battlefield that counts
In each heart and in each mind
If a symbol is needed at all
Find a symbol that unites
Use a symbol for eternity
(For eternity is where I am)
Or even the white poppy for peace
And do not war over which one!
But the best way to remember my sacrifice
Is not through symbols
It’s to cultivate peace in your heart
Your mind and your soul
So that no matter the symbol
No matter how much anyone may turn it to their particular cause
You always and truly respect the sacrifice I made.
So that there will be
NO MORE WAR
Vogue p- he heard the Rang##s scouts were interested ;/0
Right that’s enough banter, back to trying to find gainful employment….after I’ve finished the definitive report on the Motherwell game, read another chapter of Four Kings, watched my recording of Death In Paradise and given myself some precious ‘me time’ with a bottle of 13.5%.
By the way, after I’ve finished Four Kings my next book up was bought in Saltcoats a few weeks back, from a Charity shop. It cost £1.75 (£53.00 originally) and the dust jacket reads as follows ….
“A textbook blockbuster”
“opens the flimsy curtains that hide how power really works in Britain….”
“relentlessly provocative…”
Yep, I’m looking forward to a fairground ride of thrills and spills when I open John Kingdom’s ‘Government & Politics in Britain’.
Hail hail
Estadio
goldstar10 says:
9 November, 2011 at 12:50
Imatim and so is Neil Lennon says:
9 November, 2011 at 12:42
No idea, mate. He has been banned by his own peer group, the Glasgow Referees Association- not by the SFA, from taking charge of amateur games. How petty is that? Probably because he “talked” to the press, which will be against their rules.
Looks bad when a man who tells the truth is being punished.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
2010 Never Again
Wasn’t Craven represented previously by Paul McBride? I trust we’re doing something to help this man
tomtheleedstim – Philvis – fair play to you.
(thumbsup) to you Tom. (thumbsup)
dannymccaff says:
9 November, 2011 at 12:53
That would be on the assumption that there is no transfer-in embargo imposed on der orc.
cardiffbhoy says:
9 November, 2011 at 12:52
=====================
I’ve heard this argument before and the stats back it up…
BUT…
There’s only one thing the Celtic board have their eye on – the Sky money.
And Sky want Old Firm derbies.
Therefore…
2010 never Again
Beware the man who casts doubts and has a rolled up trouser leg <;-))
philvisreturns says:
9 November, 2011 at 13:01
tomtheleedstim – Philvis – fair play to you.
(thumbsup) to you Tom. (thumbsup)
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
2010 Never Again
Geez…..get a room
dirtymac says:
9 November, 2011 at 11:41
Previous blog. My thoughts on how Refereeing, licencing and ownership should be dealt with are at
http://celticunderground.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=693:sfa-reform-one-down-three-to-go&catid=45:season-2010-2011&Itemid=80
on licencing
The Licensing Service
This needs to be more transparent. As it stands it is likely to approve Rangers licensing application that enables them to play in next season’s UEFA competitions. This, despite question marks over Ranger’s ownership; the intent of that ownership; (an intent that has still to be conveyed to the other small shareholders in Rangers), not to mention (Scottish media style) a potential crippling tax bill.
Not only is it likely to approve a license this year in spite of the above, its role in not preventing Rangers getting into the situation they now find themselves in has surely to be investigated and changes made to prevent Rangers, or any Scottish club, endangering themselves and their fellow clubs in the future. In short the Licensing Service that is supposed to protect the financial well being of Scottish clubs has failed and that failure has undermined the integrity of our game.
The process the SFA use is governed by UEFA and the new UEFA Financial Fair Play (FFP) rules that stipulate amongst other things what is to be treated as allowable income and allowable debt come into force for the new season. The problem with the FFP rules is that they are designed to stop rich owners putting money into clubs and thus help restrict player wages, the high cost of which is why so many clubs are carrying so much debt.
Whilst an indirect wage cap will indirectly help Celtic (and Rangers) by making us more wage competitive with our neighbour’s in the Championship and lower EPL, neither ourselves nor Rangers are particularly high wage payers nor do we get income Abramovic style from our major shareholder.
However what Celtic have had to compete with in the last decade is our main rivals Rangers first indulging in a questionable method of paying player wages (EBT’s) and then borrowing beyond their means to repay. This has all but destroyed the integrity of our game, something that can be inferred from the Scotsman article where it says,
‘which last season led the SFA’s legal and moral authority to be undermined by constant challenges.’
It is therefore clear to any observer that the processes that have allowed Rangers to damage themselves and with it the game that the SFA is supposed to protect must be tailored to reflect the reality of the SPL not the EPL.
In Scotland, unlike England where 4 clubs can qualify, the risk of failing to get CL money means the loser can be condemned to being the perpetual bridesmaid or not getting a wedding invite at all, forcing them into taking risks/gambles that can seriously damage the well being of each club, if not end it. So the licensing processes in Scotland have to be tighter to take more of an account of a clubs debt and to confirm that all players at all clubs are contracted on a basis that complies with standard tax law principles. ( a tick against “ Are your players wages subject to PAYE should suffice)
A way of balancing debt with income and expenditure would be a triangulation profile for all clubs. A triangulation profile would have income (A) in one corner, players wages (B) in another and debt (C) in the third. The triangle has to be equilateral and kept in balance and the figures from the accounts supplied to the SFA by clubs have to feed each of the balance points.
It gets more complicated in that what is counted as income has to be defined because some has to be allocated to non football costs,but as these need to be met they have to be included in the formula to set (A). What can be allowed as income will be defined by the UEFA FFP rules but is generally gate money, TV income, merchandising and UEFA money.
Players wages including PAYE and NI should be easy to arrive at and the debt level would have to bear some relationship to the income and wages.
So say for arguments sake (and the multiplier would have to be argued) the debt allowed was 3 times the difference between income and wages (like they used to do in my young days when mortgages bore some relationship to income) then everyone would know if a club was overborrowing if (C) > (A)-(B)*3
A simple spreadsheet drawing on the figures from the accounts with a pie chart to present the picture could be published for each club without divulging the figures beneath and any club not meeting the result of the formula would have their licence to play in UEFA competitions refused as well as it triggering an SFA audit of their accounts.
There is for Scottish Clubs (usually Celtic and Rangers) however an additional issue of what is allowable income for triangulation purposes because of the “skew” affect of Champions League money and the fact that it cannot be depended upon.
Because of the consequences of the proposed profiliing, a club borrowing would have to take a risk that they were always going to have that money as guaranteed income as its loss would risk a refusal of a UEFA license or an audit under the proposed profiling rules.
So what any sensible club would do is not to include money that could not be depended upon in the income, and if they get a windfall (like CL money) that is used it to avoid or to reduce debt levels, not to keep using debt to try and ensure they get the money that enables them to stay in debt, as Rangers have done.
In fact any sensible measure of governance in Scotland with only two realistic competitors for CL money should insist on the CL money being excluded from the debt affordability calculation by removing it from the allowable income. (since Euro Cup money is more dependable and a lot less this could be included as allowable but not CL money)
The principle of limiting debt to what you can afford is one which our banks abandoned to everyone’s cost and is a principle that needs to be restored everywhere never mind being introduced to football. The triangulation profile is a simple representation of that principle and a more detailed one looking at what is and is not admissable as income and what the debt multiplyer might be in the context of Scottish football is required. Any club who wishes to operate as if CL money is guaranteed and is allowable for financial profiling purposes could only do so if they have good reasons to believe that this is the case. Those reasons should be supplied and made public.
Whatever approach is adopted Scottish football needs a more relevant process and the SFA should be saying something about the lack of transparency in the Licensing process and what they intend to do to address it.
Without complicating matters wear it if you like and don’t if you have a problem with wearing it.
Easy peasy CSC.
Can someone text me please when the auld poppy blethering is finished, thanks in advance.
V
HH
smallest csc
In respect to Juninho playing for us and EBT’s.
Brian Quinn questioned their use legally and morally, went to HM Customs and Excise (which it was at that time) and paid ALL back taxes due.
He stopped the use of EBTs as part of player renumeration immediately after that.
So we wouldl have nothing to fear with regard to inelligible players.
Thindimebhoy – Phil are you on strike at the end of the month ?
Of course not, my man.
I’ll be making money, paying taxes, winning podiums as usual.
Make the greedy pay for the clean up
By “the greedy” you mean hardworking taxpayers, and by “clean up”, you mean clean up the human excrement, used condoms, and empty bottles of Diamond White that filthy, dirty, self-entitled screaming brats have left in and around St. Paul’s Cathedral, yes?
When a toddler throws a tantrum and makes a mess, it’s cute. Or at least tolerable.
Less so when it’s a 27 year old anthropology student with dirty blond dreadlocks and a plate in his lip. (thumbsup)
Bobby Darin ——
Small world —–
Recently picked up a dubbed in Italian Dvd of the Bobby Darin biopic —– Beyond the Sea . Kevin Spacey is Bobby Darin . Kevin Spacey does most of the singing . I paid 1 euro —- that 1 euro was 1 euro too much . .
Seriously bad .
Poppy hypocrites. Listening to prime ministers question time, i know sad, one Tory MP spoke with outrage at FIFAs decision not to allow the home nation teams to have the poppy on their shirts. She went on to mention the Xmas 1914 game of football between German and British troops. What she didn’t mention was that British and German high command threatened to court martial and shoot any one else caught fraternising with the enemy. They were afraid that the common soldiers might actually see through their little empire building war to end all wars.
2010 Never Again
Auldheid
How would we go about calling an EGM? What would it take? Cheers
Imatim and so is Neil Lennon – Geez…..get a room
You can join us.
I’ll bring the lemons, you bring the party! (thumbsup)
I always preferred Sweet Pea and Olive Oil to Popeye anyway.
And then he was no longer where he once was!
Hail hail and farewell
Estadio
philvisreturns says:
9 November, 2011 at 12:44
gorbalstam – Jeezo philvis. You the pot or the kettle?
If I was a kettle, why would I be wearing this hat and this fake moustache? (thumbsup)
———————————————————————————————–
I always suspected you were Mr Potato Head
Estadio – ag ag ag ag ag ag ag ag. (thumbsup)
Imatim and so is Neil Lennon says:
9 November, 2011 at 13:00
You could be right re Paul McBride defending him, also we, the support should be giving him some kind of support, we owe him a hell of a lot of gratitude, as soon as he spoke with Guidi the game was up for the rancid SFA cabal.
That day at Tannadice will live long in the memory for many reasons, all good.
HH
philvisreturns says:
9 November, 2011 at 13:07
Thindimebhoy – Phil are you on strike at the end of the month ?
Of course not, my man.
I’ll be making money, paying taxes, winning podiums as usual.
Make the greedy pay for the clean up
By “the greedy” you mean hardworking taxpayers, and by “clean up”, you mean clean up the human excrement, used condoms, and empty bottles of Diamond White that filthy, dirty, self-entitled screaming brats have left in and around St. Paul’s Cathedral, yes?
When a toddler throws a tantrum and makes a mess, it’s cute. Or at least tolerable.
Less so when it’s a 27 year old anthropology student with dirty blond dreadlocks and a plate in his lip. (thumbsup)
————————————————————————————————————————————–
Did an Arts Student bully you at Uni?
RobertTressell – Vote Yes for Strike Action on 30th November – I always suspected you were Mr Potato Head
Ha!
Actually I’m more like Buzz Lightyear. (thumbsup)
RobertTressell – Vote Yes for Strike Action on 30th November – Did an Arts Student bully you at Uni?
No, but they wouldn’t share their weed either.
So yah boo sucks to them. (thumbsup)
Auld Neil Lennon heid says:
9 November, 2011 at 13:06
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Why is there not a professional audit conducted at the SFA like most other businesses?
Surely things like the EBT’s and the like would be picked up by this…..especially as it’s obviously in the SFA terms of reference to abide by standard accountancy and legal practices?
Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo says:
9 November, 2011 at 11:37 (previous)
To clarify these are not my proposals per se, they are what I think might be the conditions that would be necessary to allow any parachuting. I wrote them yesterday from a footballing integrity context.
In respect of your point about the social aspect I would hope this nettle and opportunity is also grasped to have Rangers condemn the likes of TFS and TBBs as WRONG, not because they break the law but morally wrong, and I would also hope that some visible indicators of success would be established to be able to measure how far their anti sectarian measures (hah) were meeting their targets.
I say hope because I doubt the social aspect will be a top priority in deciding Rangers future by the SPL and in any case that fight is taking place on the wider political arena (Offensive Behaviour) where the battle is not over yet. The RC church in Scotland still having a pivotal role to play there (in my opinion).
Lots to do.
Neil Lennon is (and always will be) a Celtforlife (*O*) says:
9 November, 2011 at 13:07
Would that be your qualifier?
I would state that irrespective of having paid it back, if you’ve illegally used a tax-avoidance/whatever scheme in order to pay players wages that you could ill-afford, you should forfeit any points accrued when that player played – this would include us if it was proven that our scheme was illegal.
My only get-out on this would be if the tax and nic was squared up within the allowable tax periods.
If you don’t apply such a rule, then (very much theoretically) a club can run up vast sums in such schemes (like £30-40m) then go on to win much more cash from the CL (this is where it’s very much in theory) by getting to the final a couple of times perhaps. Having pocketed upwards of £100m or so in various revenues from CL and advertising, merchandising etc, they then come clean to HMRC and pay back the £25-35m owed in PAYE and NIC.
Everything’s ok, it was paid back? I don’t think so.
All you need to know about Poppuies can be found by googling ‘Poppy Fascism’
Poppy now means Propaganda. It has been shamelessly harnessed by the powers that be to try and exempt ‘our brave boys’ (sic) and the exploits of the military from too much criticism and scrutiny.
I asked last year and I’ll ask again this year – where is the national symbol for the men and women who are killed in the course of their work? Where is the memorial and the symbol of the people like some of my own family who died early deaths as a result of the crap they had to breath at their work?
These people did more to build our countries than those who were sent to or volunteered for war.
A more fitting tribute to the victims of war is a sincere and lifelong effort to make the world a better place and to campaign against more poor people being sent to kill and die on behalf of the rich. And a national day of remembrance for workers killed in the course of their work.
Imatim and so is Neil Lennon says:
9 November, 2011 at 13:13
I was thinking about making that a condition but from memory of the letter Regan sent St Leo in response to asking how a UEFA licence was granted this year (the wee tax bill issue) Regan mentioned some quality control process.
If there is one then the question has to be is it up to the job?
Who guards the guards is an issue. Had the SFA been “policed” over the past three years there would be no Offensive Behaviour bill on the table.
Ok lads off to stroll in the sun.
Poppuies? Try Poppies instead. D’oh
RobertTressell – Vote Yes for Strike Action on 30th November – Where is the memorial and the symbol of the people like some of my own family who died early deaths as a result of the crap they had to breath at their work?
There’s nothing to stop you from creating one Robert? (thumbsup)