Who made the poppy a political symbol? For those who collected the flower from fields in France 90 years ago and many bereaved relatives at home it was a symbol of respect for loved ones lost, but it can be used politically and has been shamelessly politicised in Scotland in recent years, where the symbol of national loss has been exploited.
In itself, the poppy is not political, it occupies the same territory as the black armband, but even this worldwide symbol of respect has been exploited for political ends by footballers in the past.
I can understand why many in England are furious that Fifa consider the poppy a political symbol and have banned England for wearing it against Spain this week, but since a few live to exploit the flower for political ends, the Fifa decision is correct.
Before making the decision someone at Fifa would have undertaken cursory research into the subject. Searching Google for “poppy football” a few weeks ago would have returned this (now archived) result. I’m sure you recall; a banner at Celtic Park, which didn’t make the news on the day it was displayed, or on the next day, was badgered by someone into the news on day three. Celtic were the target of that exercise, the England team are now collateral damage.
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With the ‘Offensive Behaviour at Football (Scotland) Bill’ looming large, this has got to be the worst possible time to sign someone who is overtly offensive, like Mikael Lustig …
I wondered along to Bhoystown this morning for the first time in many months, interesting to see Loovens, Mulgrew and surprisingly Mo Bangura running freely. Could we be getting some players back sooner than first thought?
VFTW -in what direction was Supermo ‘running freely’?
-not towards the goal, surely?
Good article, yet again Paul67!!
I liked this posted yesterday, http://q4nobody.co.uk/images/jpegif/poppeye.pdf
God forbid l interrupt the auld poppy debate, but can anybody give me an idea how to find good live music in Glasgow on the 10th of December?
Its a works day out and seemingly my own brand comical genius will not be enough to entertain the hoards all day?
Gutted Csc
Mtt
ernie/philvisreturns- The have delightful way of describing things, the Norwegians!
voguepunter says:
9 November, 2011 at 12:27
Sadly they are often the first forgotten and also quite as often they are reviled when they fall apart from stress. There were a few choppers from RM-45 that became alcoholics and lost families after serving in the General Election conflict in the South Atlantic in the early 80s – very sad to see lives wasted like that.
Awe naw no another poppy debate the noo n awe
All I’m going to say on the poppy farce will be in this post and I am proud to say that I wear my white poppy with pride. I have 2 main reasons for doing so. First the red poppy fund was set up by Earl Haig and I believe that the man whose orders sent thousands of men to their deaths for no good reason or the organisation that he lent his name to should have no part in their remembrance. Secondly I am a pacifist who believes war is not always the answer to humanities problems and I believe it is more fitting to remember everyone who willingly or otherwise lost their life as the result of any war than only ‘our brave boys’ and would encourage anyone who wishes to remember to war dead without associating themselves with the imperialistic conotations of the red poppy to do the same. Others can remember the loss of life in their own way but I’m glad that outwith the rabid media I am free to do it in mine.
mickthetic says:
9 November, 2011 at 12:32
http://www.gigguide.co.uk/Glasgow%20Listings/glasgowsunday.htm
Dontbrattbakkinanger says:
9 November, 2011 at 12:31
Ha ha, interestingly it’s the first time I’ve noticed him composed between two Centre Backs!
Referee Steven Craven has arrived at Hampden as he appeals against the Glasgow Referees’ Association’s decision to exclude him from the game.
Craven was the linesman as Celtic faced Dundee United at Tannadice last year, in a game remembered for referee Dougie McDonald’s decision to overturn a penalty given to the visitors.
The official said in the aftermath that McDonald had attempted to cover up how the incident occurred, with Craven later speaking out in the press to give his version of events.
Craven subsequently resigned from officiating in the top flight but continued to referee amateur fixtures, before being banned by the Glasgow Referees’ Association, reportedly for speaking out, a decision which prevented him from being involved at any level.
“Dougie [McDonald] ran towards me and said: ‘I think I’ve f***** up.’,” Craven told the Sunday Mail in October 2010.
“After the game Dougie said we should tell the referee supervisor [Jim McBurnie] that I called him over to question the penalty award.
“I went along with it because I wanted to be supportive of Dougie. But then Neil Lennon came in after the game and asked Dougie why he hadn’t given the penalty kick.
“We told Neil the version that was a lie. It was wrong to lie. And I’m not proud that I went along with Dougie’s suggestion.”
It hasn’t lost its meaning for those who don’t want to it to lose its symbolism.
Or has there been a big irradiation of theworlds population that has twisted their memories, minds and emotions like The Poison Belt or The Stepford Wives where they are just going through a pre-programmed intervention by ET who has forced them to lose its meaning but think that they haven’t.
Peoplke can misappropriate and misuse anything. I know someone who was hit over the head by the statue of The Virgin Mary while canoodling with a lassie in Carfin Grotto. Shoel we ban statues, Grottos, brainwash people to forget their meaning or deal with the clowns who turn them into weapons, battlefields and bordellos.
Back to Bobby and my after omelette tea.
” baby face, …….”
hail hail
Estadio
Est
You should try other, THINGS!! Like a walk in the park. lol
goldstar10 says:
9 November, 2011 at 12:11
http://sport.stv.tv/football/scottish-premier/celtic/278344-whistlegate-linesman-steven-craven-arrives-for-appeal/
Referee Steven Craven has arrived at Hampden as he appeals against the Glasgow Referees’ Association’s decision to exclude him from the game.
Craven was the linesman as Celtic faced Dundee United at Tannadice last year, in a game remembered for referee Dougie McDonald’s decision to overturn a penalty given to the visitors.
The official said in the aftermath that McDonald had attempted to cover up how the incident occurred, with Craven later speaking out in the press to give his version of events.
Craven subsequently resigned from officiating in the top flight but continued to referee amateur fixtures, before being banned by the Glasgow Referees’ Association, reportedly for speaking out, a decision which prevented him from being involved at any level.
“Dougie [McDonald] ran towards me and said: ‘I think I’ve f***** up.’,” Craven told the Sunday Mail in October 2010.
“After the game Dougie said we should tell the referee supervisor [Jim McBurnie] that I called him over to question the penalty award.
“I went along with it because I wanted to be supportive of Dougie. But then Neil Lennon came in after the game and asked Dougie why he hadn’t given the penalty kick.
“We told Neil the version that was a lie. It was wrong to lie. And I’m not proud that I went along with Dougie’s suggestion.”
What became of Dallas’s defamation case v Steven Craven?
The man who pushed the first domino, we should be eternally grateful.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
2010 Never Again
Why has it taken so long for this appeal to be heard I wonder?
On the last thread there was a suggestion made that certain tainted titles should be removed if they were obtained using players that may have been inelligable. We dont know whether those players really were inelligable, or what paper work was put forward, but its an interesting scenario.
Lets say all matches involving players paid through EBT are immediately forfeit. In our own case that could include Juninho who played 14 matches in MON’s final year. Thats 42 points (assuming we won them all … not sure we did) which would drop us down to somewhere near Hearts in 3rd or 4th place. The league winners that year would be either Aberdeen or Mowbray’s Hibs.
Perhaps the tainted titles and future European licence should be withheld until all back-taxes, interest and penalties have been paid to HMRC? Assuming they dont liquidate.
Gorbalstam
Thanks.
Ktf
Mtt
My great grandfather was just one of thousands who died on the battlefield at Ypres. I will remember him on his anniversary.
I firmly believe that if a government sends its young men and women off to war then they have an obligation to look after them (and their families) if they are subsequently killed or maimed. However, they should not expect the public to dig into their own pockets to support something that not all agree with.
Wearing a poppy to remember the dead is one thing. Supporting the war effort is another.
gorbalstam – Jeezo philvis. You the pot or the kettle?
If I was a kettle, why would I be wearing this hat and this fake moustache? (thumbsup)
Excellent article on the way the poppy has been hijacked.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/05/poppy-appeal-subverted-veterans-complain
A group of veterans from conflicts including the Falklands and Northern Ireland have complained of the increasing glitz and glamour of the annual poppy appeal and of it being hijacked to marshall public support behind current campaigns.
“A day that should be about peace and remembrance is turned into a month-long drum-roll of support for current wars. This year’s campaign has been launched with showbiz hype. The true horror and futility of war is forgotten and ignored,”
This issue is further complicated here in Scotland by it being hijacked by Loyalist/Fascist/Racist groups to try and add some legitimacy to their poison.
The Smallest CSC says:
9 November, 2011 at 12:42
I think the qualifier would be that the EBTs were operated illegally – was Juninho’s?
2010 Never Again
Bzzzzzzzzzzz
Jude
I would but I’ve lost my MP3 thingummy, so i wouldn’t be able to listen to Bobby. :-)
“multiplication, that’s the name of the game……”
Hail hail
Estadio (in crooning heaven)
The current situation as regards the wearing of the poppy can only be decribed as poppyganda. When I watch TV I look out for those who are not wearing one and think there is a brave soul, does he or she not realise they will soon incurr the wrath of the nation ! How dare they go on TV without a poppy on their left or right breast
Both wars should be remembered but is the poppy not a symbol of the military dead, what flowers do we wear for the civilians who died in wars
You get sick of the jingoistic stuff from the politicians, now I see Cameron is on the poppy train. FIFA are correct to ban symbols on the national shirts if they allowed the poppy make way for crescent moons and other national symbols when nations have special days in their calenders
Jude….How thick am I
Brilliant!
hail hail
Estadio
Thindimebhoy – FIFA are correct to ban symbols on the national shirts if they allowed the poppy make way for crescent moons and other national symbols when nations have special days in their calenders
O noes, somebody call the SNP: http://www.uksoccershop.com/p-11301/2010-11-Turkey-Nike-Away-Shirt.html (thumbsup)
The Faithful in Arms- The Celtic Football Club 1888
Tho’ our soldiers have gone at the call of the drum
To many a field afar,
Their fancy flies to the Paradise
No matter where they are.
The Green & White like a beacon light
Upon their paths has shone,
And the question slips from Celtic lips,
How Did The Boys Get On?
Tho’ the seas divide, they think with pride
Of the team they left behind.
They are faithful still through good and ill,
They bear the Celts in mind.
So memory clings in their wanderings
To lighten a trooper’s load,
The tramp of feet down Janefield Street,
Or a vision of the London Road.
Far across the surf, they can see the turf
That came from the shamrock shore,
The team tripping out, the welcome shout,
They heard in days of yore.
They read with zest of Britain’s best
And the mighty deeds they’ve done.
When the mail comes through, one thought in view:
“Have the Good Old Celtic Won?”
From ‘Celtic Football Guide 1942-43’- as published in ‘An Alphabet of The Celts’ p.461- McBride, O’Connor & Sheridan -ACL & Polar 1994
HH
M
Bobby Darin (May 14, 1936 – December 20, 1973), born Walden Robert Cassotto, was an American singer, actor and musician.
Darin performed in a range of music genres, including pop, rock, jazz, folk and country. Although unknown to the public, his health was dangerously fragile and this motivated him to succeed within the limited lifetime he feared he would, and ultimately did, have.
In 1960 after romancing singer Connie Francis, and being run out of the house by her strict Italian father, with a shotgun, breaking her heart, Darin married “Gidget” actress Sandra Dee, whom he met while making his first film Come September (1961). They made a few more movies together at Universal Studios that were moderately successful. They had one son, Dodd Mitchell Darin (also known as Morgan Mitchell Darin) before divorcing in 1967.
-lifted from Wiki /EWLM/EWTB.
Hey Jude. (thumbsup)
Imatim and so is Neil Lennon says:
9 November, 2011 at 12:42
No idea, mate. He has been banned by his own peer group, the Glasgow Referees Association- not by the SFA, from taking charge of amateur games. How petty is that? Probably because he “talked” to the press, which will be against their rules.
Looks bad when a man who tells the truth is being punished.
Paul67 – are you exploiting the poppy to get hits ?? (joke !)
Apologies in advance for the over use of figures in the following post.
Since Phil’s latest “exclusive” it seems the timternet world has been in meltdown, with rammies breaking out left right and centre between good tims (MWD & James Forrest – you 2 shake hands or I’ll bang yir heids together), who are worried of the repurcussions of any deal or no deal the Celtic board may agree to.
There is a lot of talk of the downsides of the Huns leaving the league, in the event that liquidation happens, which I personally think won’t, albeit administration, and the 10 point hit that comes with it, is a distinct possibility.
It’s worth looking at the stats the last time one of the SPL big boys was out of the top league.
Hibs are the 4th best supported team in Scotland. They were last relegated at the end of 1998. That season they had an average attendance of 12,000, (10,679 if you take out the Edinburgh derbies, and the 4 home games against Celtic and the Huns – which had an average of 14,851) . The following season their average attendance was 10,217 as they won the 1st division so they seemed to maintain their core support, even dropping down a division, with the drop being down to the lack of derbies and CFC/Huns games – around 4000.
The average attendances across Division 1 increased that season from 2500 to 3000, which could be down to various reasons, but the inclusion of Hibs in that division could be the main one. Attendances in the SPL didn’t change without Hibs.
These figures show :
“old firm”/derby support equated to around 4000 extra tickets sold on those match days, so the loss of the Huns to a club the size of Hibs would equate to say 4000 x 2 home games x £30 a ticket, £240K in lost revenue.
Murderwell are doing ok this season, their average attendance has gone up from 5255 last season to 6182 this season.
In games without the “old firm” it is up from 4172 to 4548. So thats 400 extra people going because they are doing well. If you spread that out over 19 home games @ £30 a ticket that’s an extra £228k. The likelihood of Murderwell or Hibs doing better is obviously increased by the Huns being in a different division.
To the teams in Division One, the increased revenue from the Huns visiting would be similar, assuming their loyal(ist) away support continues to attend matches, even if they dropped by half to around 2000, assuming £20 a ticket in Division 1, that could equate to around £80k extra for every club in the lower division – a sizeable sum to many of these small clubs.
What I am trying to prove, in a very lengthy way, is that the SPL does not need the Huns. Reduction in TV revenues could be offset by increased match day attendance, and the possibility of European Income, and the monies due for finishing higher in the table.
If I can work that out, I would hope that the boards of Celtic, Hibs, Aberdeen and Murderwell could work it out.
Connie Francis! What a hell of a life she had, a hell of a life!
QuadBhoy says:
9 November, 2011 at 11:32
There are plenty of journeymen “hammer throwers” in Scotland who will give their eye teeth to play for rangers for minimum money..
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Do you think the employing clubs will be willing to sell these players in January for minimum / no money?
I’d hope that there are more chairmen in this league that look after their own clubs interests ahead of Rangers, if only so I could have a wee laugh at the bidding via red tops process that the MBB seems to favour as he did with Goodwillie.
—————————————————————————————————————————–
To an extent yes I do, because I’m not talking about their star players like Goodwillie I’m talking about “hammer throwing journeymen”.
I give you Motherwell last week. How much did that team cost. How much did they get paid. I honestly don’t know the answer but I suspect not very much. Look what they did to us…..with the help of the referee and whoever appointed him. And why referee that game after being out for so long.
Nothing has changed.
I stand by my original point. I don’t think they will be playing their under 19’s. One thing that mob don’t do is they don’t give up. Don’t expect that. They will go down kicking and screaming to the bitter end. I hope to live to see that bitter end. I use the word bitter deliberately.
Paradoxically it could actually be good for Scottish football if they played their under 19s because what do you think our board would do ? Might even be a good thing to develop some of our youngsters.
Est
Thers Phil tryin to badger in. Its to Early In The Morning for this banter!! lol
I would like to see Celtic fans who want to pay respect to those who have been killed in or by wars to consider wearing a white poppy. http://www.ppu.org.uk The white poppy is a march of respect for the dead but detaches it’s self from any militaristic or political connotations the red poppy has. I will be wearing a white poppy and not a red one.
Non-Poppy wearers and Human Induced Climate Change deniers – all heretics and pariahs in 21st century british society.. spot the recurring theme?
As a child, we always bought a Poppy. Often it was a self service type arrangement, with a box of Poppies and a collecting tin on the counter of the Butcher’s shop or Post Office. Other times, a collector on the Main Street or in the town.
The daft wee pin at the back ensured they didn’t last two minutes before falling off. We would often buy another to replace it. The daft green plastic stick thing at the back of a later design was hopeless unless you had a button hole. But we knew that.
The Poppy was a symbol of respect for those who died in the wars. It was as simple as that. As a kid around that time of year, I would often ask my my older relatives what it was like, the War. I got little back from them, but this story remains:
When the ‘Great War’ started, my Mother’s Father, Eddie MacNamara, ran away aged 14 to join the Army. His older brother Peter had joined up weeks earlier. Apparently it was the thing to do. His father found out, went down to the barracks in Dreghorn, and dragged him back home. The following year he did it again. This time his father decided to let it be a lesson to him. He was invalided out of the Somme the following year, the lucky one of the family. At age 16, a war veteren, Eddie went back to school, got into University, ended up a distinguished scholar of History, Queens Medal winner no less, and Head Master of St Margaret’s in Airdrie. His brother Peter was never found, missing in action, and assumed dead.
[This joining up ‘thing to do’ has an interesting contemporary context. My Grandfather’s Grandfather was one of the founders of Hibernian FC. The family was culturally Irish and profoundly Catholic, living in the same community at the same time as James Connelly for example. Their patriotism to the British Crown would be abhorrent to many of their progeny.]
Later in Secondary School, I remember being captivated by the history of the First World War. I couldn’t believe how abysmal it was. I would recall the old story of my Grandfather and his brother, and try to imagine the horror of it all. Each November, I would buy a Poppy and cast my mind back to those history lessons and remember my Grandfather, his brother and imagine again their ordeal in the mud and the blood of France. The Poppy on my blazer was simply an expression of thanks. A symbol of gratitude.
Nowadays, the Poppy has been requisitioned. It has become a statement conformity and of absurd, narrow British Nationalism. You can buy Poppies in all sizes. Presumably only the very best British people are allowed to wear the really big ones. Not to wear one in the media is a public disgrace, with vilification falling swiftly on those who dare not wear it.
I don’t buy a Poppy anymore. It is meaningless.
I regret that. But I don’t forget.
Well said Paul67, it has to be said; just heard Cameron saying in response to a poppy question in parliament “the MP reflects the views which not just the whole house share, but the entire nation…..” speak for yourself davie boy
It is ridiculous, I have no problem with the poppy per se but the insidious ‘poppy facism’ that Jon Snow warned us all about has never been more prevalent as it is these days