Amid all the debate about oil, currency, pensions and a million other items, I’m surprised higher questions have not been asked about our cultural identity. I’ve never said I’m British in my life, I’m Scottish, but the full story is more subtle than that.
Despite being a football fan, a Scot and a Gordon Strachan fan, I watched another channel when Germany-Scotland was on. My sense of personal identity, the anthems I cherish, the emblems I’ve always worn, my ‘national’ community, is the one I share with you.
I know we have a large number of England-supporting, English-Celtic fans here, just as there are Ireland-supporting, Irish, and Scotland-supporting Scots, but some of us feel our strongest affinity among our urban, west of Scotland-based, Celtic community. This community will only ever march behind a green flag. There is nothing wrong or unpatriotic about this, finding your own identity is what multiculturalism is all about.
There are a thousand more national identities than actual nations, but why do many of us feel more like sons of Jock Stein, than Jock Tamson, or (cough) John Bull?
I don’t think there is a single British, or Scottish, cultural institution I feel an attachment to. I was really caught up with the whole Mo Farah/Jessica Ennis-inspired Super Saturday at the Olympics – delighted at the success of British athletes, but later that day, when Ki stepped forward to take the decisive kick for South Korea against GB, I punched the air with joy. The whole Burns Night thing feels like someone else’s party.
In fact, it’s worse than not having an affinity with a British cultural institution, our Celtic community is marginalised by competitors in the south. If Scotland, which is perhaps more bound-up in tribal football culture than anywhere on the planet, had EQUAL access to the UK’s cultural markets, would we feel so excluded?
I know there are many who are happy with the way sentiment is going right now, but if those intent on saving the union want to get busy on some urgent nation-building, they should set about removing the two-tier cultural divide which keeps our club, our community, from the top table. We pay an obligatory BBC tax to subsidise an England and Wales league, our non-tax-based pay TV money goes the same way. This is a distorted market, with Scotland obscured by an England-Wales cartel. As a result we’ve been drained of talent and financial muscle for a century.
Football is not controlled by politicians, but it can be, and is, influenced by them. Westminster is speaking with a more unified voice than I’ve ever known right now. Its voice should be clear: Scotland needs equal access to the UK’s cultural markets, including football.
Our exclusion is intolerable, unfair, has fermented disaffection and must end, irrespective of what happens next week. Why would Westminster politicians be unable to say this?
Let’s hear you.
The fantastic new edition of CQN Magazine is out today. You can read it, for free, here, at it’s dedicated site (don’t try to read on the graphic below).
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The truly sad thing relating to today and yesterdays article and the descrepancies involved is it highlights that Celtic is all about the money. They don’t give two tuppeny sucks about any social aspect of the customer base unless it is a PR exercise in extolling our charitable virtues. See Campbell Ogilvie
I reckon we i.e the profit obsessed PLC are more concerned that their recent attempts to revive the Old Firm has not worked than it being at all concerned about anything political.
Maybe we can be rid of these tories once its clear that there s not enough profit in their Celtic dalliances.
They are an embarressment
HH
mWd
I agree with the view that our vote on the referendum should not be decided on the basis of which team we support or of proposed benefits to our team on one outcome or the other.
Nonetheless, after the 18th, if there is a NO majority, however slight, we will be operating within GB or UK boundaries for a while yet. In those circumstances, we will be faced with a choice of what to do with Celtic and growth of markets. We should not, equally, let our commitment to a change of national boundaries, limit ourselves to the potential for Celtic to grow.
My stated preference is that we have to grow to survive. I want a big club like ours to play in a commensurately big league. I would prefer that this was a Europe wide league but, if by default of regional proximity we were placed largely within an English and Welsh League, then I would take that as a starting point? I have little doubt that the precedent effect would see the 3 big Portuguese clubs seek an accommodation with Spanish or Spanish & French leagues, and the Dutch & Belgians with German or German & French leagues. Then it can progress based on meritocracy, to leagues where clubs find their economic and competitive levels.
SFTB
Do you actually believe that the labour Party will come back round to it’s founding principles. I believe since Tony Blair the party has taken a leap too far to the Right of centre that any step back to centre of the left of in the UK would see it never again in power in the UK.
I fear staying with that over any risk Scottish independence could ever throw at me. I believe the Labour Party without it’s over riding influence from WM is saveable.
MWD says AYE
South Of Tunis
15:08 on
9 September, 2014
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
TBB >> SoT post above offered similar conclusion to you with regard to European Legislation…
All that is required now is for ratification by Europe in accepting Scotland’s Membership.
How’s that going……….anything clear & simple that can be referenced?
Paddy T the Eurosceptic.
Time for a wee chant….
“Just over the Border in Berwick one day”
SFTB
Great post that man.
It saddens me to think that there are many Scottish born Celtic fans who don’t support Scotland.
“Scots are not genetically programmed to make political decisions.”
Letter writer to a West of Scotland newspaper today asks if it true that Johann Lamont uttered the above words.
Anone know anything about it?
anybody know if john guidetti has been passed fit
for swedens u21s
really looking forward to seeing him in the hoops.
SFTB
sounds like you want the huns back and pronto
HH
“Scots clubs exclusion from UK market ferments disaffection”
Without being unkind Paul, the above could have been penned by the great Desmondo himself.
At the end of the day, no matter how people wax eloquent about it, there are no English turkehys daft enough to vote for an early Christmas by letting Celtic into evwen the lowest tiers of English Football.
275 thoughts on “Scots clubs exclusion from UK market ferments disaffection”
« Prev1…3456traditionalist88
15:27 on
9 September, 2014
ernie lynch
15:09 on
9 September, 2014
Any prospect of Celtic playing in any English league will be gone forever if it’s a yes vote.
I think that’s very clear.
===========
Clarity eh, maybe not such a bad thing when you think about it…
Actually, if/when UEFA sanction Regionalisation, I don’t think the Independence Referendum will make any difference unless they physically ‘cut’ Scotland off!
A yes vote will just mean that when change happens it will be forced through by UEFA in time as opposed to the politicians. And given the work the politicians have done so far its hardly surprising, is it?!
HH
bournesouprecipe
15:27 on
9 September, 2014
Dear Grumpalump,
First and foremost ask yourself that most vital question, will the referendum result make one bit of blind difference?
Yours unconcerned
Rutherglen
flabinho
15:32 on
9 September, 2014
“I don’t think there is a single British, or Scottish, cultural institution I feel an attachment to. ”
Except Celtic FC I assume.
Vote no if you’re a loyalist.
Parkheadcumsalford
15:32 on
9 September, 2014
James Forrest,
I would be happy to take leave of my senses. This should have been enshrined in law as soon as we entered the EU. Big problem, imo, is that if it legislated for, could not any team from any EU country seek entrance. Poor UEFA trying to deal with that. Might have good repercussions as the corrupt and the jobsworths might get their marching orders.
the glorious balance sheet
15:32 on
9 September, 2014
Why would UEFA, the SFA, the FA, the English football league and clubs on both sides of the border ever agree to allow Celtic to join the English leagues simply so that Celtic can get a share of the TV money on offer?
Why would they be open to this now when previous approaches from Celtic and the former Rangers have been rebuffed?
The notion of Celtic playing in England is a complete and utter fantasy.
Celtic is all about success in Europe against the odds. Lisbon in 67, beating Leeds, skelping Sporting Lisbon 5-0, beating the likes of Real Madrid, Milan, Barcelona (twice), Juventus at Celtic Park.
We can forget all about that if we prostitute ourselves to English football. If we were ever accepted into the English leagues we would have to start at conference level with no guarantee of smooth progression through the leagues and no European football for a number of years at the very least.
In European terms our club would become an irrelevance during our time scrapping it out in the lower reaches of English football.
Should we play Macclesfield instead of Motherwell just because there’s a few extra quid in it? Hell no!
I find the constant courting of the English leagues and their TV money thoroughly depressing. If people are obsessed with money should go and support the Clydesdale Bank.
The likes of Basel and Sevilla show that decent European performances can be sustained over a period of time without English TV deal type money.
setting free the bears for Res. 12 & Oscar Knox but saying no to CQN racists
15:34 on
9 September, 2014
weeminger
“What Jamesgang just said. It’ll be in ever SNP manifesto until independence is achieved.”
I don’t see why they have to put that in the Manifesto.
They are the Scottish National Party.
The one distinguishing policy they have is to promote Independence.
They have offered that policy to the Scottish people since 1934 and have been a Scotland wide party offering that policy since the 60s.
For the past 50 years or more, Scots who passionately believed in the policy of “Independence and we’ll sort out the details later” could have triggered that circumstance by voting in sufficient numbers for the SNP. Britain was freeing a lot of African and Asian countries from colonial or dominion status in the 50s and 60s. They would not have stood in the way of a determined Scots majority to operate their own defined national boundaries.
We are told it is the brave vote. The vote that laughs in the face of being told it is “too wee or too feart” to govern itself alone. Yet this bravery failed to make itself heard in the 50s (when the Potato Scone was stolen/repatriated from London), or in the 60s (when we were kings of fitba and Winnie Mandela won Hamilton), or in the 70s when the UK was in grim conflict and Scotland was in two WC finals), or in the 80s and 90s when we qualified 5 times and were ravaged by Thatcherism, as was England). It took until the late noughties for the brave pills to kick in.
What happened then?
Have the SNP policies for Independence become any more carefully detailed and agreed?- No
Have we become any more oppressed by England and or Wales than we were in the past?-No and we never really had the same relationship with England that India or Kenya or Jamaica had.
Are we more endangered by Trident than we were in the early 60s by the Holy Loch? No, again.
All that is happened is a disillusionment with UK politics and, in particular, with New Labour politics. Now, for that, there is justification.
Some chose to stay and fight to reform the party. And some chose to be brave and ran away to be friends with the SNP.
They now have the zealous fervour of the reformed smoker and the post-Communist Malcolm Muggeridge.
They are now telling me that I am a mug and a feartie, and my parents (and theirs) were mugs for sticking with it through changing circumstances.
Now, we all have lines in the sand. There are circumstances where I would give up on current national boundaries and seek the refuge of an enclave where more harmonious social democratic policies could thrive. But neither the rise of the BNP in the 70s nor Thatcherism in the 80s drove me there. So, the threat of UKIP and or Boris Johnson will not frighten me away at their first growl either.
RWE
15:37 on
9 September, 2014
A polarized debate with name calling. I’m so glad it’s not anything very important.
On here last night, I read of Yes inclined posters celebrating the fact that they had chased off the blog another poster who had posted something of which they disapproved. His crime was to explain how the company that employs him had withdrawn millions from a Scottish institution because of the uncertainty should there be a Yes vote. He didn’t say what his views were on the issue, but included it as a cautionary tale.
The reaction(s) was/were the antithesis of what a Celtic supporter should be.
Inclusive, regardless of race and belief – my erchie.
HH
The Battered Bunnet
15:37 on
9 September, 2014
Paddy
I don’t profess to have many answers, but all over Europe folk live in one jurisdiction and work in another. I have pals living in France and working in Switzerland for instance. I’m sure we can cope if it comes to it.
Issue becomes complicated by the Ltd company malarkey. BlantyreKev’ll give you the run down, but you need to separate out tax on the company’s profit and tax on the shareholders’ dividends paid from that (post tax) profit.
Bawsman
15:37 on
9 September, 2014
Hugh Bonkle fae Dallas
15:14 on
9 September, 2014
Paul 67 agree with lots of what you’ve written. Not a lot of what you’d identify as quintessentially Scottish that I feel in tune with, but neither do I feel particularly Irish.
I’ve never got particularly upset if Scotland have lost but could have quite easily locked myself away in a darkened room after many a Celtic defeat.
But I would hope that there aren’t too many people who would have been swayed in their referendum voting intentions by the promise of entry to the EPL. Surely that goes against what we hope Celtic and the support stands for. Surely?
==========================================
Totally agree, I hope we would never play in the EPL.Maybe i’d reconsider if it explodes/goes bust and returns to normal.
medtim
15:39 on
9 September, 2014
A wee alternative way to look at this referendum.
Imagine the upcoming vote was to decide whether a currently independent Scotland should join with England or not.
If you were inclined to vote for joining with England,what would your reasons be?
Moonbeams WD. Wee Oscar’s our Bhoy and Kano’s our mhan.
15:45 on
9 September, 2014
Paul67
I will give credit were credit is due.
I suspect, knowing you, and reading both articles once again that you are trying to drive the debate back to footy away from Indy to a degree it has worked. I withdraw any previous assertions in my postings that you may have taken as a slight on your character. However my point stands that I do not feel the Celtic support are so easily manipulated.
One last point to all. Wee straw poll.
Who would prefer that I went back to being a facetious git about Celtic rather than talk indy?
It won’t make an iota of a differnece but I just thought I’d ask. :-)
Ernie. Any answer yet?
MWD says AYE
Moonbeams WD. Wee Oscar’s our Bhoy and Kano’s our mhan.
15:47 on
9 September, 2014
medtim
I think adding some blue to a boring white and red flag would do it for me.
MWD says AYE
Can I Have Raspberry On That Champions League Ice Cream
15:47 on
9 September, 2014
When does purdah start on CQN. I’m not allowed to discuss yes/no.
Moonbeams WD. Wee Oscar’s our Bhoy and Kano’s our mhan.
15:48 on
9 September, 2014
Bawsman
we agree on something. You should change your vote now. that was the deal. :-)
MWD says AYE
weeminger
15:49 on
9 September, 2014
setting free the bears for Res. 12 & Oscar Knox but saying no to CQN racists
15:34 on
9 September, 2014
I personally don’t see the need either. That’s why I’d previously said it was a ‘given’.
If Yes wins will the SNP even be relevant? I’d have thought not, they’d have achieved their defining goal. In the first general election following that I’ll be voting for whichever party matches my goals as closely as possible.
Som mes que un club
15:50 on
9 September, 2014
setting free the bears for Res. 12 & Oscar Knox but saying no to CQN racists
15:34 on 9 September, 2014
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
One of the best posts I have read on CQN concerning the Referendum.
Well done Sir.
#nothanks
tonydonnelly67
15:51 on
9 September, 2014
So independent Scotland want, the Queen,and the Bank of England, we already have that, am I missing something here,?
Syd Negakev
15:53 on
9 September, 2014
If moving to the EPL is just about getting more money then fair enough but there would probably be years of mediocrity and no European competition as we struggle to compete with the oligarchs and sheiks.
The fans would also lose out having to fork out in travel/accomodation etc.
So, it’s not for me and there’s zero chance of it anyway if the vote is for independence.
More skill and enterprise is required by our football guardians to build up the game here in Scotland. A link with similarly disadvantaged European nations could be a consideration although the travel/accom issue would still be a problem.
Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo
15:54 on
9 September, 2014
The truly sad thing relating to today and yesterdays article and the descrepancies involved is it highlights that Celtic is all about the money. They don’t give two tuppeny sucks about any social aspect of the customer base unless it is a PR exercise in extolling our charitable virtues. See Campbell Ogilvie
I reckon we i.e the profit obsessed PLC are more concerned that their recent attempts to revive the Old Firm has not worked than it being at all concerned about anything political.
Maybe we can be rid of these tories once its clear that there s not enough profit in their Celtic dalliances.
They are an embarressment
HH
setting free the bears for Res. 12 & Oscar Knox but saying no to CQN racists
15:54 on
9 September, 2014
mWd
I agree with the view that our vote on the referendum should not be decided on the basis of which team we support or of proposed benefits to our team on one outcome or the other.
Nonetheless, after the 18th, if there is a NO majority, however slight, we will be operating within GB or UK boundaries for a while yet. In those circumstances, we will be faced with a choice of what to do with Celtic and growth of markets. We should not, equally, let our commitment to a change of national boundaries, limit ourselves to the potential for Celtic to grow.
My stated preference is that we have to grow to survive. I want a big club like ours to play in a commensurately big league. I would prefer that this was a Europe wide league but, if by default of regional proximity we were placed largely within an English and Welsh League, then I would take that as a starting point? I have little doubt that the precedent effect would see the 3 big Portuguese clubs seek an accommodation with Spanish or Spanish & French leagues, and the Dutch & Belgians with German or German & French leagues. Then it can progress based on meritocracy, to leagues where clubs find their economic and competitive levels.
Moonbeams WD. Wee Oscar’s our Bhoy and Kano’s our mhan.
15:56 on
9 September, 2014
SFTB
Do you actually believe that the labour Party will come back round to it’s founding principles. I believe since Tony Blair the party has taken a leap too far to the Right of centre that any step back to centre of the left of in the UK would see it never again in power in the UK.
I fear staying with that over any risk Scottish independence could ever throw at me. I believe the Labour Party without it’s over riding influence from WM is saveable.
MWD says AYE
Paddy Turner
15:57 on
9 September, 2014
South Of Tunis
15:08 on
9 September, 2014
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~#
TBB >> SoT post above offered similar conclusion to you with regard to European Legislation…
All that is required now is for ratification by Europe in accepting Scotland’s Membership.
How’s that going……….anything clear & simple that can be referenced?
Paddy T the Eurosceptic.
Time for a wee chant….
“Just over the Border in Berwick one day”
tonydonnelly67
15:58 on
9 September, 2014
SFTB
Great post that man.
iPaddy McCourt
15:59 on
9 September, 2014
It saddens me to think that there are many Scottish born Celtic fans who don’t support Scotland.
====================
What do you mean support?
Should we all be going to Scotland games in our kilts and see you jimmy hats or is it more the standing in a bar shouting at a screen kind of support you favour?
Maybe international football doesn’t do it for many of us.
Maybe the cost of being a football fan these days is prohibitive.
Either way I don’t think Scotland lack suppot anyway?!
quonno
15:59 on
9 September, 2014
“Scots are not genetically programmed to make political decisions.”
Letter writer to a West of Scotland newspaper today asks if it true that Johann Lamont uttered the above words.
Anone know anything about it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBH55ZeZU4w
Lord Stewart punted the ball down the street, deciding that..
Not to allow the appeal over the ring fencing of money may “inconvenience” the share issue, a share issue that would benefit both parties if successful…
The appeal hearing is scheduled for November…
Oh well
setting free the bears for Res. 12 & Oscar Knox but saying no to CQN racists
15:34 on
9 September, 2014
On the point of being disillusioned with Westminster, why would I join or try and reform the Labour Party just because they no longer match my aspirations for how we can be a better society. I had voted for them in the past then Lib Dem at the last election because I felt they were more inclined to a fairer and more equal society, and we all know how they turned out.
The problem isn’t even the parties it’s the system and a more proportional system has been rejected.
In my view nothing will change with Westminster politics without them getting an almighty shock, and this could be it. I think things could improve across the whole of the United Kingdom with either result in the Referendum. I sincerely hope it does.
As I stated the other day to Ernie (or NegAnon) there’s a line roughly across the country from the Mersey to the Humber, provided the main parties appeal to the voters below that line, the results above there makes no difference whatsoever. Regardless of what people say the needs and concerns of that part of the country are different to those in the North.
It’ll get worse if the changes to voting boundaries agreed in 2012 get through when it’s up for debate again in the next parliament.
Awe_Naw_No_Annoni_Oan_Anaw_Noo
16:03 on
9 September, 2014
SFTB
sounds like you want the huns back and pronto
HH
Don’t blame SFTB. He is only taking a lead from Celtic Board.
MWD
Monteblanco
When we meet our higher aspirations as in via the Foundation or any charity avenue, it is only because we have met our lower ones on Maslows’ table of needs.
The blog today imo reflects the lower needs, yesterday’s the higher.
You cannot have one without the other.
Had the Christian message been expressed love yourself as your neighbour perhaps this would have help the realisation that in giving to ourselves as we give to our neighbour, we are protecting our neighbour for times when we have nothing to give.
In my it repeated story of the man watching the boy on the beach, the boy would not be there had he not taken care of himself.
Monetblanco When I shuffle off my mortal, the banana will said we’ll at least you tried to tell them how I operate.
And I’ll say they’re too busy playing banana and judging everything to see you at work.
And he’ll say “did you mention forgiveness, the antidote to judgement?”
and I’ll say
Seventy times seven.
PaddyT
I deliberately used the France/Switzerland example because the Swiss aren’t in the EU.
I could equally have used the example of the many folk who live on one side of the Irish/UK border and work in the other, which would be more representative.
Fact is, people and money move with few restrictions.
Fact is also I have a very similar issue to face, which I have yet to resolve.
Wtf…
Quonno
Joanne Lammont utterred those very words on the first Scotland Tonight debate held on Independence a couple of months back when she and Nicola Sturgeon both embarrassed themselves live on national TV in what I can oly term acat fight. those words being the most embarrassing of the night however. You will catch it via you tube if you seek it out.
MWD says AYE
Im still laughing at the Jaws story
Ah’m votin’ “Mibbees.”
I think I miscounted
Seventy Seven times seven.
Quonno@15.59 – Aye, she said it. Here’s the clip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBH55ZeZU4w
RWE
16:05 on
9 September, 2014
Lord Stewart punted the ball down the street, deciding that..
Not to allow the appeal over the ring fencing of money may “inconvenience” the share issue, a share issue that would benefit both parties if successful…
The appeal hearing is scheduled for November…
Oh well
Does not mean that they will win appeal.
Judge has got to avoid appearnace of predjudice by refusing apppeal.
Baws man 15.37
Baws by name talking baws by nature! Talking of baws I’d gie my left baw for Celtic to play in the EPL , Celtic with the resources Sky would give would romp that league within 3 years ala man city! ! Like it or lump it we are dying a slow death in Scotland, the chickens have came home to roost brought on by the demise of the huns as witnessed by our diminishing attendances etc etc.
Auldheid
do you really want to be part of something that pays an individual £342,000 per week for the purpose of entertainment.
not sure I do!
MWD says AYE
Private Fraser “We’re doomed ah tell ye, doomed.”
Doing what Scots do best – fight amongst ourselves.
Removing the chip-on-the-shoulder England factor maybe turn out to be removing the only thing that actually ever drew Scots together.
Bhoylo,
I canny read Ernies posts now without the theme from jaws popping into my head :)
weeminger
16:10 on
9 September, 2014
In my view nothing will change with Westminster politics without them getting an almighty shock,
If reports are true that the high heid bummers are ducking out PMQs to come to Scotland then they have already hand an almighty shock.
Thanks for the youtube link.
BBC’s coverage of the independence referendum us absolutely shameless. Wall to wall (uncritical) No coverage with token reference to theYes camp afterwards.
#voteyes
copy and paste error, sorry :/
The Glorious Balance Sheet
It’s not about Celtic joining an English league it’s about all Scottish clubs having the freedom to chose where in the UK they wish to operate.
If you have not noticed that lack of freedom, the same freedom that independence paradoxically seeks, is killing Scottish football as a commercial enterprise.
It shows you how crazy politics is.
Lord Srewart made an arse of it on Friday, and got his neck pulled over the weekend, prob. At an extra ordinary lodge meeting, anyone surprised with this judgement has just landed in Scotland, from god knows where?
Phil MacGiollaBhain@Pmacgiollabhain · 1m
http://www.philmacgiollabhain.ie/an-inconvenient-truth/#more-5050 …
Meanwhile I understand that the bills are piling up.
quonno
16:16 on
9 September, 2014
To be fair it’s not quite as bad in the full context, and I think she just doesn’t really know what she’s saying a lot of the time.
T88
thought I was hallucinating….. 8))
MWD and weeminger
The short answer is “I don’t know” and admitted that where I stated there may be some future line in the sand that will scare me.
What I do know is that there have been various periods of disillusionment with the Labour Party and Socialist progress. In the 30s many were driven into the arms of the fascists and the communists from becoming disillusioned social democrats, frustrated by the progress of parliaments and the resistance of established power.
Awe Naw
“sounds like you want the huns back and pronto”
You mean, in contrast to all those times I have outlined my real position on the huns?? This post, where I don’t mention them or accord them any relevance in the debate, reveals that I believe the opposite to what I said?
Sounds like you want us to play in the West of Scotland amateurs. See how easy this attribution lark is!
quonno
Aye, and you’ll be being telt what to say by the Sevco Board? Is that how it works? Or do we debate it like grown-ups instead?
weeminger
16:19 on
9 September, 2014
quonno
16:16 on
9 September, 2014
To be fair it’s not quite as bad in the full context, and I think she just doesn’t really know what she’s saying a lot of the time.
Problem is that she is probably saying what London Labour has programmed her to say.