Following yesterday’s article on the cosy relationship between the police and Scottish Government, who are alarming a remarkably wide range of society, a flurry of information has been passed back to me, including the following notes on the Integration of Scottish Criminal Justice Information Systems (ISCJIS) database. The First Minister has stonewalled requests to breakdown religiously aggravated crime, claiming the Crown Office have destroyed their records, but my source suggests the information is available for analysis in the ISCJIS database. I’m told:
“The material stored (in the ISCJIS database) ranges from simple conviction records, to DNA, and social status. The data is used primarily for presenting Criminal History in court cases, and in identifying suspects in criminal investigations. It is also used of course to measure the social impact of changes in Legislation and Enforcement Policy, as evidenced by the current furore. It will also be used to predict the impact of such changes, particularly as regards Equality and Diversity impacts, which is a statutory requirement of any proposed Legislation. You see, the ‘missing’ data is actually necessary in predicting the impact on Equality of the Offensive Behaviour Bill.”
“Essentially, if you want to know how many Section 74 Breach of the Peace convictions (Aggravation for Religious Prejudice) or even charges, there were at a given point in time in a given court, you simply search on the Breach of the Peace Conviction Code and add the modifier code ‘P’ indicating Religious Aggravation. All such offences are then returned, with full access (rights permitted) to the Reports and Case Notes.”
To assist the First Minister, below is information on what the enquiry form he has to complete looks like. This is a link to the operation manual and if he’s really stuck he can call the helpdesk on 0141-585 – 8333.
We can only speculate why the authorities are so reluctant to disclose information on, on a subject so close to their hearts.
Quick shout for the John Thomson Memorial Fund, which is benefiting from the sale of 60″ posters for the recent stage play, check them out on ebay.
OFFENCE AGGRAVATION
DEFINITION: The code for a crime or offence that adds to the Offence Code by highlighting particular circumstances relating to the specific incident as opposed to the actual charge.
DATA ITEMS: Crime/Offence Aggravator.
PERMISSIBLE CHARACTER SET: Code field – Alpha or Zero.
RANGES/VALUES: The code field is 1 character long and consists of an alpha code, which identifies the Aggravation to the offence committed. It is possible that a charge can have a combination of up to 6 aggravations. An aggravation description may be held in a text field within individual systems and will be an automatic expansion of the Offence Aggravation code into text to specify the nature of the Aggravation.
PRIMARY OWNERSHIP: ISCJIS – maintained by Crown Office.
CODES: Over page:-
CODE Aggravation Inactive indicator
Anticipated activation date
0 No Aggravation
A Anti Social Behaviour
B Offending whilst on Bail
C Cancelled
D Domestic Abuse
E Disability
F Football
G Football Banning Order
H Harassment
I Harassment Order
J Connected to Serious Crime Y October 2010
K Offence against a child
OFFENCE MODIFIER DEFINITION: The code for a crime or offence which provides additional information for the specific incident as opposed to the actual charge.
PERMISSIBLE CHARACTER SET: Code field. Alpha, numeric.
RANGES/VALUES: The code field is 4 characters long and consists of an alphanumeric code, which identifies additional elements of the charge. The code will consist of an alphabetic character followed by 3 numeric characters. If no modifier exists, 4 0’s (zeroes) characters will be transferred. An Offence Modifier description may be held in a text field within individual systems and will be an automatic expansion of the Offence Modifier code into text to specify the nature of the Offence Modifier.
PRIMARY OWNERSHIP: ISCJIS maintained by Crown Office
CODES:- See offence modifier codes. The current
definitions are:-
A For Class A Drugs
B For Class B Drugs
C For Class C Drugs
W For Weapons
L Breach of undertaking
Y October 2010
N Sexual Orientation
O Sex Offenders Order
P Religious
R Racial
S Sexual
Q Transgender
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philmac blog today sums up what we are up against in this ‘One Nation’.
Hate to say this, but once the wifes terminally ill mother passes away.
I will seriously be trying to persuade her we should move South with kids.
I don’t hear about their Chapels or Priests houses being fire bombed.
Never heard of a football manager getting bombs in the post either.
A very depressed Hail! Hail!
Hamiltontim
Many things felt right at 21.yrs that do not now. My 32 in waist jeans for one.
googybhoy
That fight for equality and independence is ongoing. Granted those continuing the armed struggle are largely criminals but even the Republicans in power would tell you that the real aims are still some way off.
My point is that there are many like you who now deem the songs inappropriate but admit singing them in the past. Mostly the songs are heard at away games nowadays. My view is that largely they are part of the repertoire of teenagers and men in their early twenties, although they are not specific to these groups alone.
Many of them will perceive this as a right of passage in the same manner that you and many, many others have in your own youths.
I wonder if attendances at football matches in Scotland will suffer once this “offensive behaviour” legislation is introduced tomorrow?
I can`t help but think that many people will decide that they don`t fancy being a “sitting duck for a polisman with a quota” as
Monteblanco put it so well @ 17:17 and run the risk of losing their job and suffering travel restrictions in the event of being unfairly arrested under catch-all legislation.
I wouldn`t be surprised if the next 12 months herald a clear decline in SPL attendances.
the glorious balance sheet says:
13 December, 2011 at 18:32
Note the quote from Peter Lawwell today:- “However, this is a clear warning that such behaviour will not be tolerated”
Except when it is done by Ragers fans inside our home ground, perhaps.
The songs debate is a red herring. There is no such thing as a song that’s allowed and a song that isn’t allowed when the goalposts are moved and we are jusdge on an arbitary basis by different sets of governing bodies. We fight a a war on three fronts.
The Scottish government – who have already said that making the sign of the cross (a futile gesture in my eyes, as an athiest) could result in prosecution (persecution?).
UEFA – Who again make subjective judgements based, as far as I can tell, on the whims of marketing departments. If there is no room for politics in football, why do heads of state sit at the top table in Euro finals? Why the antio racism message? I think it’s right, but it’s political, and therefore *should* be banned. In saying that, we know the anachronisic views about racism from some of the senior white guys eh? Handshakes all rounds lads!
Celtic – The board and the new liberal elite that would have your freedom of speech commuted to only what they want to hear. Do as I say, say as I say, eh Bhoys?
It’s ridiculous. The human rights charter was drawn up for a reason. UEFA have to conform to the law, and right now Celtic should be wheeling out the big guns and sueing the skittles from them.
Instead, the board has simply painted a large dayglo target on our back. And Lawwell and Desmond have cut the ribbon on open season on us all.
The club as we know it finished. Welcome to new Corporate Celtic 2011. Some of you have the club you deserve. Enjoy it while you can, because you guys will be next in the targets.
/p
fanadpatriot says:
13 December, 2011 at 16:57
Eurochamps67
The board indeed turned against the support.Lawwell brought it up at the AGM.Why?.Slan
Why?
Because they saw all this coming and tried to give the best advice they could.
They also safeguarded the club by doing so as it forms a defence at SPL level at least.
I sometimes wish that they had worded their condemnation more as a request like so:
“Please refrain from – not that we think it is wrong to do so, but because it could be viewed as being against the competition rules and it may cause us as a club harm.”
A wee sly dig at Bains/Rangers lack of condemnation of TBB and TFS to boot.
At the same time they could have made reference to any number of offensive actions/chants from other supports that have went unpunished (was it Paul Hartley who took very loud homophobic abuse playing for us at an away ground?) this would have played to the galleries also and staved off some criticism.
That they didn’t – could it be that they are acting professionally and trying to box clever?
Plod will be delighted that we are turning on our own, and the board are our own, for all their failings.
QB
What next for us Tims- the board has decided not to rock the boat by appealing the fine- presumably hoping that this action will help it blow over quicker, and from a purely political perspective that seems a reasonable course of action. Looking at the wider perspective however their actions leave some significant questions unanswered- as no information has been forthcoming on what songs are now proscribed the support remains vulnerable to repeated punative action- why the reluctance from the recently vocal Smith to enlighten us as to what exactly we do that offends him? In addition we hear clubs in Scotland (most recently them at the weekend) and abroad sing both sectarian and political songs, yet no report to the SFA or EUFA- why are we being treated differently. My guess is that reporting us is part of the SNP’s even it up strategy and that Eddie Smith is just the puppet who agreed to complain, probably in exchange for some future promotion. If this is the case then we can expect that we will continue to be targeted- no matter what songs we sing. So for those of you who think dropping the Ra line will make this stop- I think you might want to consider why all of this is happening at this particular time- its no coincidence
bournesouprecipe says:,
Thanks for your earlier reply. I was of course being facetious (no-one has the ability to portray republicans as criminals). That ship has sailed thanks to some very brave people.
Personally I’m also of the mind that the songs about physical force republicanism are not appropriate at football grounds. More in respect of the men and women who fought and died as opposed to what the ‘authorities’ of any given day decide.
One thing that does not need clarified though and one thing that will ensure I and a lot of others walk away from supporting the club is, if in the view of the club, that Irish republicanism equates with ‘tarnishing the club’s reputation’.
It’s a deal breaker and while some might say of course the club aren’t saying this, it actually needs to be said out loud and clear, because of the lack of transparency and the fear that the club agree with the above and God forbid were even complicit in this fiasco.
Árd Macha
topkat says:
13 December, 2011 at 18:20
Yeah, wee Nevin ‘I’m going to bring it up every time I hear it’
With him being a Hibs fan now you would think it would be all over the papers
Is the soup good Pat?
iki 18:38,
I suspect that Lawwell and his colleagues on the board take the view that the Rangers fans can sing whatever they like as long as they keep paying their £84 admission for 2 games per season.
We need to consider if our support of the club, with the incumbent custodians, is what we want.
Now I choose not to sing Republican songs at football matches. My choice, and I’d condemn anyone who denigrates the memory by rabble rousing chants aimed at antagonising others.
But I’ll be damned if we are forced to forget the sacrifices of Republican and Nationalists by bigoted politicians and bureaucrats.
Think about it for a minute, do we want to be cowed into forgetting the sacrifices made in 1981, for example ?
For the second time in my 46 years I believe not supporting the club in the short term is the best option.
I’ll be communicating this to the club tonight, would urge any and all like-minded supporters to do likewise.
Real harm is being done to us, our bond and our history.
*does need clarified*.
Árd Macha
The lead article is about the government not making information available to us. This is unacceptable.
delete ‘ government’ insert ‘board’
hamiltontim says:
13 December, 2011 at 18:16
You make a very valid point. I know how I would have reacted back then if told to stop
BTW
BIG-CUP-WINNERS says:
13 December, 2011 at 18:46,
I agree, see my post @ 18.44. We need some clarification from the club.
Árd Macha
Stairheedrammy says:
13 December, 2011 at 18:43
Exactly right.
The SNP have just announced yet another year of “celebrating Scotland”, to go with “Homecoming” 2009 and 2014. My kids regularly come home from school with barely concealed Nationalist propaganda. Millenia of world and European history ignored, but weeks spent learning about “Scottish Wars of Independence” (which was actually a mediaeval aristocratic power struggle, but I digress).
The fact that the biggest and best football club in Scotland still celebrates the colours and history of Ireland irritates them hugely. They want us homogenised.
Strathclyde Police are happy to do their dirty work.
Now that the GB have stopped the illicit and ad ons….maybe the support should get behind them, join in the singing and inject some atmosphere into the stadium….get behind the team onwards to winning the league…instead of week in week out mowning about sammi ki or anyone else…..let the rafters roar and let glasgows finest leave with their heads bursting …eh eh eddie…. need to get a new one for sammi ooh aah ,,,,ops sorry illicit … Wonder if the ever ready eddie will be the match commander when the stench come on the 28th….ye know the family affair thing they like to create !!!!
Celtic Football Club Statement
By: Newsroom Staff on 13 Dec, 2012 18:39
FOLLOWING UEFA´s decision yesterday (Monday) to impose a fine of 15,000 euros upon Celtic Football Club, the Club would like to clarify the reason for the fine being imposed.
The charge related to “illicit chanting”, specifically, “ooh ah up the Ra”, and fell under Article 11 – 2 e) of UEFA´s Disciplinary Regulations.
we all know now
TheOriginalSadiesBhoy says:
13 December, 2011 at 17:42
Vmhan, Kano 1000 – Supporting Lenny & the Green Brigada! says:
13 December, 2011 at 13:18
I think you are being a bit disingenuous. We all know the illicit songs. Any that construe support for the IRA and possibly any that include references to Fenian(s) or ‘Orange/men/lodge/order/b******s’
…………..
You think so, I don’t!
Like you I could guess but what if the new match commander takes a dislike to the fields of athenry or the Irish national army, can you …. Erm guess what will happen?
With respect we need CFC to communicate what songs or part of songs are to be dropped, anything else is you’re guess or mine.
V
Glad the club have clarified that. The supporters can easily avoid that little tune/add on.
People at the match have reported that they did not hear this at the game. I suppose it’s past the post now but, how loud did it need to be for Eddie Smith to hear and report it?
Árd Macha
may I volunteer the notion that we bring back that old Michael Fagan song so heartily sung from the jungle in jocular
fashion and replace Michaels name with the MBB.
the problem with this “oh ah up the ra” chant is it will only take 1 buckied up twat to shout it and we will be getting reported again and again and again.
now we know, lets not play into their hands again ffs
So it is one add on chant….now we know.
Let us suggest to Uefa that they send a team to monitor the game on Dec 28. Cmon Board make a public statement and ask them along.
Last week I read on FF that Peter Lawell had asked Eddie Thompson to report Celtic to EUFA. I laughed to myself and wondered whether some of these guys had anything grey between the ears,
Now I’m not so sure. Maybe there is a grain of truth in what they said.
When I read BRTH last night I said to myself, Celtic can handle this. Then today we’re told there will be no appeal. I suspect Lawell will never tell the fans what was deemed “illicit” but in future he will be the judge. A sad outcome. Was there a board meeting? What in mid December?
I only hope that Neil Lennon has the sense not to make any comment on the matter. However, I feel that would be wishful thinking on my part.
ASonOfDan says:
13 December, 2011 at 18:32
philmac blog today sums up what we are up against in this ‘One Nation’.
Hate to say this, but once the wifes terminally ill mother passes away.
I will seriously be trying to persuade her we should move South with kids.
I don’t hear about their Chapels or Priests houses being fire bombed.
Never heard of a football manager getting bombs in the post either.
A very depressed Hail! Hail!
————————————————————————————————————————————————–
Well said all this wringing of hands by the little Scotlanders in our support about singing a few Reb songs, why aren’t they so articulate and animated on the real issue – anti Irish anti Catholic bigots that infest Scotland. Oh yes and for the Uncle tim appeasement society (Chairman P Nevein) – our moto – Stop singing reb songs and we will be accepted in Scotland – why yes maasa i’s be a good Bhoy now i’s a promise.
And for all those who talk about the EPL – the EPL and England can take a long flying f**k – do we really want to play teams like Chelsea, Leeds etc with the baggage some of their support have. They make the H*n look like choir boys.
So thats what we got fined £12,500 for “Oh ah up the Ra” What a load of ballocks.
Ard Macha,
Like you I am glad the Club have clarified matters. I think you will find it was sung at least once at the very beginning of the game. (Obviously, that’s all it took to get the match commander to report us: we’ve been set up and walked into their trap.) Let’s end it there. Now, can we all get back to supporting Celtic?
They were filming the GB at every home game….so the ooh aah could have been from any game…..this was the one smith chose
Oh, STV was back to calling it “offensive chanting” this evening.
Was there a precedent for a Scottish polis to report a club to UEFA or did Eddiebhoy take it upon himself to set one.
If so why Eddie??
Is that the first game you were at where you heard offensive/illict/sectarian/racist/get’s up pat nevins snivelling nose chanting.
Thought not EddieBhoy so who’s yanking yer chain money nuts??
SP
Now we know indeed.
You cannot sing “ooh Ahh Up the Ra”
That is why the board did not appeal.
It was sung, it shouldn’t have been.
You cannot appeal against something that evidence proved was wrong.
The only people who have hurt our club are those who are so arrogant as believe that they can do as they please.
Aways good to know we have got hunners a songs to sing
Army = anthem but y’all knew that.
V
Eurochamps 67 at 19.28
All we want is to be treated in the same manner as everyone else- do you condone us being singled out for preferential treatment while the hun chant their sectarian ditty’s with impunity?
For goodness sake, why was that so difficult? Why didn’t they say that before?
I don’t know what the board could have done here.
They’ve been done up like kippers, just like the rest of us. The hun are allowed to indulge in continual religious and racial hatred and it is either ignored (e.g. Saturday), or they are in fact praised for it (post-league cup final) by the police.
The fact is that had the board appealed the uefa decision they would look ridiculous. They have stated at the recent AGM that they want the IRA references to cease; if they subsequently appealed a punishment for precisely that, they would look like the huns did after their tussles with uefa, when they spat the dummy, shot the messenger and refused to deal with the real problem. I believe the board have taken the moral high ground and appear much better for it than bain et al did.
Of course, if the board had colluded with Smith/the polis in this affair, then it would be deplorable and I would 100% join the calls for their removal. But until someone gives me some evidence for this I will presume their innocence. It remains pure speculation.
The real enemies are the cops (probably getting orders from on high) and the SNP government liars.
Let’s pull together, oppose the bill, press for the stats on sectarian crimes to be published, and stop referring to the ra at the games. Let’s win this league and punish these ba**ards in a way they will never forget – our Lenny lifting up the SPL trophy in May.
Much wailing and gnashing of teeth over nothing.
All will be revealed after the result from the big tax case comes through. How we deal with the consequence of that will be my own personal guide on how I approach things.
The tartan army started to win the battles of hearts and minds by adopting a friendlier attitude to the neutrals. Compared to the English , dutch, Italians, Germans, Poles they have a good reputation.
We have basically taken on the huns on two fronts. Our behaviour and the impression we want to convey and the financial aspect. We hoped that by doing both well that it would be good for us. The real reason both have been so successful was the supports desire to distinguish ourselves from the huns.