After a series of incidents when the country’s lowlifes threw objects at footballers (at least one was a Celtic fan) the media have presented you with a simple solution: strict liability. Strict liability punishes the club whenever its supporters misbehave. On occasion, the home club is punished, even when away fans misbehave, and on fewer occasions, the home club is punished when a completely unconnected ‘fan’ transgresses, as happened to Rangers during a European tie decades ago, when an apparent Celtic fan affixed himself to a post like a Leigh Griffiths scarf.
Coins and bottles being thrown is a depressing reality. As a consequence, anyone with half a brain will want action taken, but I have a problem with strict liability – it is action, for actions sake. It does not work.
Uefa impose strict liability on clubs in European competition. Celtic have routinely been fined hundreds of thousands of euros, without any inhibition on offending rates. No one seriously believes that would change with fines in domestic football.
Is anyone suggesting the outcome of a league title should be determined by points deducted because an idiot threw a coin? And if so, who would be the arbitrator of such a decision? How would you stop a Celtic fan again going to Ibrox to cause problems? You would incentivise this behaviour, which is lunacy of the highest order.
Scottish football resists strict liability because, like most simple solutions to complex problems, it does not work anywhere it is practiced.
We know lots about this behaviour. Many women and girls attend Scottish football, but throwing dangerous objects is a male-only practice. It is a manifestation of male violence, a consequence of many complex issues.
For an instant, the thrower of a coin is the alpha male, albeit a very pathetic one, but he gets a ‘hit’. If his act generates significant media coverage, the instant can become a week. If his club is fined, or the reputation of his fellow fans is tarnished, he does not care. He is a free rider.
Football-attending nutcases who are caught are all repentant in the dock, but object throwers are seldom caught, which is why we have a problem. It is a criminal act without personal consequences. All measures which do not connect the offender with the consequences will fail. The logical outcome to all of this will be greater video surveillance – this is what the police will suggest.
The real question is, what is society’s appetite for addressing indiscriminate male violence? If we want to outsource the problem to football clubs, I suggest its’ not very great.
224 Comments- Pages:
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FAN-A-TIC on 4TH MARCH 2019 3:32 PM
“He has been touted as one of the best young coaching prospects in European football.”
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Imo we don’t need another European prospect. Granted since his appointment to first team manager in 2017 he has done well. However reading further much of his sucess can be attributed to Rene Maric his assistant.
I feel their next move will be to a more established club in Germany.
Cheers and HH.
ROCK TREE BHOY
Can’t see how the press had any influence on BR leaving?
Of course the press will attempt to unsettle the fans but i would like to give the Celtic support a bit more credit than you suggest.
Neil has had a good start and how the season pans out will determine who is the coach next season.
No one is under the impression that discussing coaching candidates will have any impact or influence on the boards appointment.
A blog is just a forum for differing views and that’s all it should be.
JG @ 3.44
TD and his analysis is 15 years out of date.
He is describing the tail end of the liberal civilisation process that has happened in Scotland since Attlee and the end of WW2.
That elastic has snapped and the world has taken a turn for the worse.
He hasn’t taken into account liquidation.
He hasnt taken into account the NI settlement.
During the 70’s and 80’s the crap comic that is AC could get an audience making TFOD jokes — TFOD bra / loads of support but no cups — and ask questions about their signing policy.
Now nobody dares question them at any level. The press either ignores the isdue or shouts squirrel.
Not sure the next steps …
Is this the last twitch of the corpse or is a full scale Thermidor style reaction?
Before Trump and Brexit I would have plumped for the first now I am not so sure.
Am not saying Alex Neil is the man for the job but believe me me he is a Celtic Mhan thru n thru HH
https://twitter.com/willreyner/status/1102270586129211393?s=12
VFR
I did not agree with all that Tom Devine said either, but I did not read him as saying this has all gone away now.
He did, quite rightly, put this into the perspective of what used to be more embedded and structural anti-Irish racism.
There is no way that you or I have had to put up with the same level of treatment that our fathers did. We do not even have the same treatment our younger selves had.
MadMitch may be right in that we are on the brink of going to hell in handcart but, speaking of the here and now, people do not feel as safe in issuing sectarian or anti-Irish sentiment in the workplace, as they once did. That is not to say that it has disappeared or could not make a comeback. But, we get this treatment nowadays mostly from people who hide in the anonymity of the internet or the crowd,
Tom Devine’s point was a telling one- why do our community vote in such large numbers for the SNP if they feel that Scotland is such a threatening environment for them. They surely cannot all believe in the delusion that this is all England’s fault?
And for all of Tom Devine’s perceived underplaying of the problem, he was an oasis of grown up sense compared to what was said in the Kaye Adams “debate” which was full of “it’s only a problem for the 2 Glasgow clubs”, “it’s a West of Scotland problem” and the old chestnut, if we stopped seperating children at schools we would solve it”. There really are a lot more unexamined idiocies and unconscious prejudices around this subject. Tom Devine was correct in portraying this as another in a long line of moral panics that feed the media.
I beieve there saying is “If it bleeds, it leads!”. Even, an old bigot like Lord Reith would balk at the callous and dangerous manipulations that go on under that ethical standard.
GREENPINTA
I have no idea what the boards expectations are of our coach.
I was just giving my view that many have heard of him.
I had after seeing a few of Salzburgs Europa cup games last season so was very curious to see how his team performed against us.
I was impressed with their system ,fluency and movement.
I often posted here that BR’s system was not properly implemented and our spacing was flawed.
Europe exposed that and the difference between us and Salzburgs technique and system was obvious.
I imagine how this season plays out will decide our future coaching appointment .
Hail Hail
FAN-A-TIC on 4TH MARCH 2019 4:32 PM
From what I saw the SMSM in general had been needling BR for quite some time and it was pretty much the same theme – “Have you taken Celtic as far as you can Brendan?” – that question was put to him in various formats constantly. Did it play a part in him quitting suddenly? Pass on that one – possibly.
By the way I’m not suggesting what we should and shouldn’t discuss on here – that’s not the issue, but I will be paying much more attention to how the SMSM cover Neil’s circumstance as we get towards the business end of the season. Do i think they will try and unsettle him – Definitely.
GREENPINATA on 4TH MARCH 2019 4:30 PM
FAN-A-TIC on 4TH MARCH 2019 3:32 PM
“He has been touted as one of the best young coaching prospects in European football.”
—————-
Imo we don’t need another European prospect. Granted since his appointment to first team manager in 2017 he has done well. However reading further much of his sucess can be attributed to Rene Maric his assistant.
I feel their next move will be to a more established club in Germany.
Cheers and HH.
True Greenpinata
Enough of project Managers who are just using footy Clubs for their own personal
gain by enhancing their footy CV (trophies won & success) & making name for
themselves to show that they are no past failure & have improved over a short
period of time although & however will jump ship for a bigger financial reward
or appointing an unheard of named project manager with no plan ‘B’ when
things don’t go to plan get the picture here folks yeah let’s just stick with a Man
who has our footy Club @ heart & who has also learned from his past mistakes
& is willing to compromise by making everything/attention to detail work out
for the best end results & move our footy Club in a positive & correct direction
if it’s not broke which it’s not @ present then why fix it? Cheers & H.H.
RTB- On and off the park…
SOUKOUS on 4TH MARCH 2019 2:26 PM
Salzburg under Marco Rose were 2 up with ten minutes to go against Red Star Belgrade instead of being pragmatic and seeing the game out they kept going forward and lost 2 goals and a place in the Champions league group stages.I remember at the time thinking this is really naïve of the manager and if I was a Salzburg supporter I would have been raging at him.Be careful what you wish for.
Charlie Poole
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL4J-XIAKvw&list=RDrL4J-XIAKvw&start_radio=1
———–
In Dec 17 we were 2-0 up at Easter Road, went on to draw 2-2 and lucky not to lose. The following week we were stuffed 4-0 at Hearts. Lenny showed Hibernian respect at the weekend, at 0-0 and 1-0. He got the tactics spot on, it may not have been fluid but it was highly effective.
Wouldn’t mind getting ICT in the semi-final draw tonight.
Give us a chance of some payback for the semi-final debacle of April 2015 and the blatant (admitted) Meekings handball missed by all the officials.
Still the most unbelievable ‘honest mistake’ of the SFA’s many, and a possible template to prevent a rebel treble treble !
My hope is the club do not appoint a coach in isolation
There still seems to be a disconnect on the assimilation of youth to first team.
Would like to see a more cohesive strategy.
A director of all football operations should be considered.
CHAIRBHOY on 4TH MARCH 2019 10:17 AM
“There is much to admire about Scottish football and the values it holds but winning the league is what is expected of the Celtic manager now. It is the bare minimum requirement. Anything else would be failure. It’s a poison chalice to a certain extent… you wouldn’t want to be the ghuy who drops the ball on the way to 10iar…
*and that to me is why he jacked it in, it seems that he was for the joe the toff in the summer and although we would have been urinated off would have eventually accepted it, as WGS once said the Celtic job has a 3 year shelf life so he left a year early.
However, seemingly DD who sanctioned his and his staffs hiring and authorised him getting a shed load of money which IMHO he wasted in the transfer market, well not all of it, jumped all over him and forced him to stay but not before he demanded PL find a Plan B, something that buck seemingly never had on the field.
BTW can anyone tell me what Kolo Toure actually did apart from a wee jig in the dressing room, he only played 11 games and was in the team at the Nou Camp along with that other fraudgers failure Dorus Day.
His foray intae the market after Edouard, a player we were delighted to sign as a foil for the big Moose, was curtailed as it seems he was trying tae flog the latter.
As for young McGinn, mibbees his grampa put him wise tae the situation and asked him tae cool his heels, also mibbees again DD suggested that PL tell putrid and dumpster tae stick their craft and eastern star up their erses.
And Piccini, let’s get a grip here, who in their right mind after spending time in Florence, Seville and Lisbon would now swap the Mestalla for Glasgow, there are plenty of ex-pats on here, how many would go back tae the incestual wee bigoted and racist country.
IMHO again should Lenny be here next season John McGinn will surely follow him and not to the King Power Stadium
EMBRAMIKE on 4TH MARCH 2019 5:00 PM
Wouldn’t mind getting ICT in the semi-final draw tonight. Give us a chance of some payback for the semi-final debacle of April 2015 and the blatant (admitted) Meekings handball missed by all the officials.
*Fully concur and the Maryhill Magyars in the final, retribution for October 23, 1971.
TONTINE TIM
*Fully concur and the Maryhill Magyars in the final, retribution for October 23, 1971.
Your memory puts my befuddled brain to shame.
I was there and it still hurts like it was yesterday though having seen the date has just added to my confusion due to Peter Pan syndrome.
Like you i have the Celtic trait of holding a grudge which my missus just can’t comprehend.
Mon the Harry Rags
My friends in Celtic,
So it’s officially ” British Pie Week” according to Twittering and the Facing Book.
Aw well that rules out AMc and KB on our screen tonight. Difficult commentating with your gub full.?
I’m surprised, that some fans are surprised that Brendan Rodgers has taken a pounding, from the supporters.
This time last week we were in shock, and a week is hardly a lifetime after your long haired lover from Liverpool suddenly leaves your life.
I look at the outpouring from what is effectively a ‘giant of a club’ © Jose with a world wide support and it reaffirms the oversized ego, that landed in Leicester. His biggest crime wasn’t withdrawing from his contract, with no notice, it was turning me, and thousands of ordinary Celtic fans into people who dislike him, after two half years of incessant adulation. How he could do it to his family, and his extended brothers will prove a dreadful mistake in time, a mistake he’ll regret for the rest of his career no matter how many more zeros, he adds to his bank balance.
I actually feel sorry for him now he cuts a lonely figure yesterday deep inside his three sizes too big King Power anorak, name calling and song singing will quickly be confined to history just like we were overnight.
LastWordEverOnBrendan CSC
SFTB.
Possibly this can help with Tom Devine’s rationale.
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/08/snp-played-scotlands-catholic-church-fool/
Happy bunnet day !!
HH
BSR,
Good post. Like I say, I’m no longer angry with him. Not worthy of it.
Almost pity him.
He has made a serious mistake that he will regret eternally. If he doesn’t it will just confirm the measure of the man.
Onwards in Celtic.
Eurochamps67
If we dont want to mess around and our main aim is to get the coveted ’10 in a row’ (if we can get number 8) then Lennon is probably the safest choice
Someone coming in trying to implement a new style straight away, with a chance it might not quite work initially, wont get the time to get it right.
B-)
Congerton finally gettin the boot
Every weeks pie week in Rutherglen
Roll n Pie CSC
WEDNESDAY 4TH
Fr Murphy was in tonight. I have not felt too bad today, although I notice the energy beginning to drain. But it is quite early yet. I got showered today and had my hair cut, which made me feel quite good. Ten years younger, the boys joke, but I feel twenty years older, the inevitable consequence of eight years of torture and imprisonment.
I am abreast with the news and view with utter disgust and anger the Reagan/Thatcher plot. It seems quite clear that they intend to counteract Russian expansionism with imperialist expansionism, to protect their vital interests they say.
What they mean is they covet other nations’ resources. They want to steal what they haven’t got and to do so (as the future may unfortunately prove) they will murder oppressed people and deny them their sovereignty as nations. No doubt Mr Haughey will toe the line in Ireland when Thatcher so demands.
Noticed a rarity today: jam with the tea, and by the way the Screws are glaring at the food. They seem more in need of it than my good self.
Clearly the next appointed manager is likely to be NL.
However if things do go wrong this season and we end up appointing someone else please make sure he has no short term premier league ambitions.
It is a reality that we have to sign players with premier league ambitions.
If all goes well at least we are likely to be rewarded with a big fee.
However we are more than entitled to insert some kind of premier league exclusion or massive compensation in the contract of any manager getting hired by celtic fc.
I would assume that Brendan Rodgers would not have allowed a 15 million release clause inserted into his contract.He held all the bargaining power thats why we only got his basic wage paid up to end of term [6 million].
The Scottish Cup Draw tonight straight after the Thistle game.
Hearts v Celtic
ICT v Sevco
I wonder if, at any point over the past 24 hours, Brendan has had a wee private moment of reflection and thought to himself, wtf have i done. It would’ve been horrible for him if he has.
I actually think it is written in the stars that this season we will have Lennon v Gerrard for the Scottish cup final this season.
Everything will be on the line.It will be billed as the biggest game in scotland for decades.
Ard Mhaca, Thanks for keeping the flame lit. Having visited the H Blocks including the cell where Bobby died, I do find reading the diaries harrowing & upsetting yet it is important to keep the memories alive.
RTE are surprisingly running a documentary on Bobby Titled 66 days. I think it’s being shown this coming Thursday.
BSR
Do you know somethin we dont :)
DAVID17 on 4TH MARCH 2019 6:38 PM
I very much doubt it; he never struck me as a man who has any doubts at all about himself. ‘I did this, ergo I am right.’
He knows exactly what he has done, and why he did it.
So good luck to him, and his hubris.
Forza Lenny.
Is Congestion away?
Plastic Whistle v Hearts Sky 115,draw after it
Sorry – that should be ‘Congerton’. Although on this occasion I feel like siding with the iPad autocorrect.
Phishing email received by me and my son saying season tickets will NOT be renewed next season.
I would advise that you don’t click on any of the links.
SS- i got it too,it says if you renewed last season online, they wont post out the written application pack.