It is a male problem, strict liability will not fix it and video surveillance is coming


After a series of incidents when the country’s lowlifes threw objects at footballers (at least one was a Celtic fan) the media have presented you with a simple solution: strict liability.  Strict liability punishes the club whenever its supporters misbehave.  On occasion, the home club is punished, even when away fans misbehave, and on fewer occasions, the home club is punished when a completely unconnected ‘fan’ transgresses, as happened to Rangers during a European tie decades ago, when an apparent Celtic fan affixed himself to a post like a Leigh Griffiths scarf.

Coins and bottles being thrown is a depressing reality.  As a consequence, anyone with half a brain will want action taken, but I have a problem with strict liability – it is action, for actions sake.  It does not work.

Uefa impose strict liability on clubs in European competition.  Celtic have routinely been fined hundreds of thousands of euros, without any inhibition on offending rates.  No one seriously believes that would change with fines in domestic football.

Is anyone suggesting the outcome of a league title should be determined by points deducted because an idiot threw a coin?  And if so, who would be the arbitrator of such a decision?  How would you stop a Celtic fan again going to Ibrox to cause problems?  You would incentivise this behaviour, which is lunacy of the highest order.

Scottish football resists strict liability because, like most simple solutions to complex problems, it does not work anywhere it is practiced.

We know lots about this behaviour.  Many women and girls attend Scottish football, but throwing dangerous objects is a male-only practice.  It is a manifestation of male violence, a consequence of many complex issues.

For an instant, the thrower of a coin is the alpha male, albeit a very pathetic one, but he gets a ‘hit’.  If his act generates significant media coverage, the instant can become a week.  If his club is fined, or the reputation of his fellow fans is tarnished, he does not care.  He is a free rider.

Football-attending nutcases who are caught are all repentant in the dock, but object throwers are seldom caught, which is why we have a problem.  It is a criminal act without personal consequences.  All measures which do not connect the offender with the consequences will fail.  The logical outcome to all of this will be greater video surveillance – this is what the police will suggest.

The real question is, what is society’s appetite for addressing indiscriminate male violence?  If we want to outsource the problem to football clubs, I suggest its’ not very great.


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  1. CorkCelt Typed @ 21:18 On The 4th of March 2019


    The Huns think that Rodgers is nailed on to buy El Buffalo for Leicester, maybe 20/25 million and this together with the 5 million ‘Profit’ they have already made this season will give them a 30 million kitty to chase us down next year. It beggars belief.



    Yeah CorkCelt in their Dreams if they think they are going to get 20-25 Mil for toys out the


    pram EL Toys Out The Pram Wee Buffalo with a big attitude problem what medication are


    they on & they are going to have a 30 Mil money laundering kitty to chase us down nah


    it’s medication time for the Zombies in cloud cuckoo Land it certainly does beggars to



  2. Eurochamps 2nd mar 11.08



    Hi mate,I trailed back and can’t find what I thought was a great post by yourself,giving cogent reasons and argument as to why Neil should not be our manager.i can’t find it.!




  3. Good morning CQN from a chilly and damp Garngad



    So we have sheep or Sevco in semis, bring it on.



    I take it both semis are at Hampdump?



    Anyway let’s not take our eyes off the sheep on Saturday, bread and butter (league) get this one won.



    D. :)





    The Welfare sent for me today to inform me of my father being taken ill to hospital. Tried to get me to crawl for a special visit with my family. I was distressed about my father’s illness but relieved that he has been released from hospital. No matter what, I must continue.



    I had a threatening toothache today which worried me, but it is gone now.



    I’ve read Atkins’ statement in the Commons, Mar dheá! (Atkins pledged that the British government would not budge an inch on its intransigent position.) It does not annoy me because my mind was prepared for such things and I know I can expect more of such, right to the bitter end.



    I came across some verse in Kipling’s short stories; the extracts of verses before the stories are quite good. The one that I thought very good went like this:



    The earth gave up her dead that tide,



    Into our camp he came,



    And said his say, and went his way,



    And left our hearts aflame.



    Keep tally on the gun butt score,



    The vengeance we must take,



    When God shall bring full reckoning,



    For our dead comrade’s sake.



    ‘I hope not,’ said I to myself. But that hope was not even a hope, but a mere figure of speech. I have hope, indeed. All men must have hope and never lose heart. But my hope lies in the ultimate victory for my poor people. Is there any hope greater than that?



    I’m saying prayers — crawler! (and a last minute one, some would say). But I believe in God, and I’ll be presumptuous and say he and I are getting on well this weather.



    I can ignore the presence of food staring me straight in the face all the time. But I have this desire for brown wholemeal bread, butter, Dutch cheese and honey. Ha!! It is not damaging me, because, I think, ‘Well, human food can never keep a man alive forever,’ and I console myself with the fact that I’ll get a great feed up above (if I’m worthy).



    But then I’m struck by this awful thought that they don’t eat food up there. But if there’s something better than brown wholemeal bread, cheese and honey, etcetera, then it can’t be bad.



    The March winds are getting angry tonight, which reminds me that I’m twenty-seven on Monday. I must go, the road is just beginning, and tomorrow is another day. I am now 62 kgs and, in general, mentally and physically, I feel very good.

  5. morning bhoys from a calm but cold Cheshire, with no midweek game, it will give lenny a chance to work with the squad before the Aberdeen game,coybig.hh.

  6. Grand Chilly Morn’ in the Chilterns…



    AULDHEID @ 10:20 PM,



    A lesson from Brendan Rgoers appointment.



    Now if I were on the Board I’d be asking questions about the risk involved in not just employing a manager but also the team that he wants to support him.



    There are stories that BR tried to entice away more than his own men.



    Neil Lennon has paid great tribute to John Kennedy and the help he has provided.



    Stability is very important for a club who want to be successful every season.



    What Id be looking into is establishing a team that stays and works with any manager appointed and any manager appointed would take the job on that basis.



    Of course it is an easier sell to an incomer if the in house team has a good pedigree for coaching and player development.



    If BR has taught us one thing it is the dangers of a personality cult where all hopes are pinned on one guy.



    So I’m not into bringing in guys who only see Celtic as a stepping stone at manager level to the EPL. which is a reason for appointing NL longer term. That and looking forward to a game in Europe again.



    However if we allow personality to hold sway then back room stability is essential. We might even promote from there if it were not perceived as lacking ambition.



    Bloom where you are planted I say.



    Well there are some very good points there and I believe it point to a bigger questions… who or what is in place of our head of sport?



    Firstly let’s deal with BR enticing away the whole of Celtic’s backroom staff… my friend put on social media that he’d taken the dietician and chef an awe:(((



    Now this points to a big question. Who is sticking these “stories” out there:



    – Level 5, the SMSM to disrupt the running of the smooth Celtic machine



    – Internet or other Bampots making it up



    – A mole within Celtic?



    Well, if we look at the sources/exclusives we can say it doesn’t seem to be L5/SMSM. The IBs have been all over this of course but don’t seem to have manufactured it. The content, whose propagating it and who the “target” is. All seem to point to a primed “Celtic minded” Celtic park mole.



    Let’s take the John Kennedy saga as a case in point…



    What happened with JK…



    Well when Leicester (re!?) approached on the Sunday, Peter Lawwel and Brendan Rodgers have a chat, it seems the back up plan was put in place… Lenny caretaker, JK his assistant.



    To a great extent giving continuity past and present.



    (Celtic’s women at) The Herald speculates on Brendan going and Lenny taking over very early Monday morning…



    BR takes training at Lennoxtown. Later he takes the backroom staff and Scott Browny into a room and tells them he’s off to talk to Leicester City. He hands over to John Kennedy and tells him to be prepared to take the team for Wednesday – presumably agreed beforehand with Peter Lawwel. BR leaves



    Peter Lawwel arrives at Lennoxtown tells John he’s taking the team on Wednesday and he’s bringing in Lenny and he (JK) will be his assistant, he asks what John’s thoughts are, JK says he’d like Damien Duff to be promoted to first team Coach.



    Lenny speaks to JK later and John tells him about DD and Lenny agrees.



    Early Tuesday morning (Celtic’s women at) The Hearld has breaks the news and has an exclusive BRs off.



    Now everybody involved seems to agree that is what happened. No one talks about tapping up or Brendan offering Celtic’s backroom staff a position at Leicester.



    Leicester’s backroom staff are in situ and are in charge of City’s game on Wednesday.



    NB: Lee Congerton didn’t go either.



    The unsubstantiated, unsupported “story” about BR offering positions to Celtic backroom staff is then put out by (Celtic’s women at) The Herald and “Celtic minded” Internet Bampots… it’s then taken up by the SMSM.



    There is no direct quote, even though John Kennedy and Damien Duff are interviewed, there is not one salient fact to back it up. Who made up this story and why?



    Is it the same folk who released the stories about the summer’s “China crisis”, the rehash of the McGinn saga, Brendan Rodgers eats babies etc etc… The whole covert black PR campaign stinks – well if you’re a Celtic supporter who believes we are more than a Club (like you and I).



    Now to the head of sport at Celtic thing… I’ve touched on this before. As we don’t have a Head of Sport or Director of Football thingy who makes these decisions?



    It is said part of the reason Lenny left, five seasons ago (maybe the last straw even) was the fact that Celtic were bringing in a new formation, game plan and tactics (throughout the squads) and Ronny Delia was to be brought in as assistant Manager as a specialist to coach/implement these changes.



    So I’ve asked the question, is it an individual or a collective that makes these decisions and who are they. Their decision making is obviously final.



    T’uther day when Lenny was brought in as caretaker he was told John Kennedy was going to be his number two, he was told he wouldn’t be changing the way Celtic play…



    This time he accepted it… no place for Garry Parker!?



    Maybe if Lenny gets the job fulltime Garry will come in.



    It was very telling that there were changes to the Celtic approach at the beginning of the Hibs game, we didn’t look great and some tactical tweaking was made that changed the performance for the better (won us the game!?) Lenny credited JK with making those changes.



    So you are spot on and stability and continuity is very important at any Club but especially one the size of Celtic with a playing “ethos”.



    It’s interesting that Lee Congerton was offered the Head of Sport role at Celtic. Maybe Celtic have realised exactly what you are saying and planting things to get some blooming continuity and stability…



    If it’s to succeed, maybe they should get the mole and “blow it bleed’n head off;)”



    Hail Hail

  7. !!Bada Bing!! on

    Article in the Daily Mail today,by an ex Grade 2 referee,saying Dallas is still the puppetmaster,hang about with his boy,you are cert to make it.

  8. Park Road 67 on



    Pope Pourri and Pope Soap on a Rope aye very good ghuys ??

  9. Hot Smoked –


    well, personally speaking, I’m just home from a wonderful week in the Canarian sunshine. Wasn’t exactly free, mind you.


    And good morning, friends, from a cold and post-rainy East Kilbride.

  10. FOOL TIME WHISTLE on 5TH MARCH 2019 12:49 AM



    What he said …??????




  11. How many people have been involved in `incidents` this season ?


    How many people have been to football matches this season?


    How does that compare with Society in general?


    Is the Media reaction in perspective?


    Is there an ulterior agenda?




  12. Back to Basics - Glass Half Full on

    Pius 12th.



    His legacy was spun by a pile of BS called ‘The Deputy’ by Rolf Hochhuth, an East German communist, who claimed the pope did nothing to denounce the holocaust.



    Published in 1963, the liberal western media grabbed the false message and ran, sprinted actually, with it.



    A fabulous book – The Myth of Hitler’s Pope – written by a Jewish academic very skilfully deconstructs this narrative.



    Worth a read.

  13. Chairbhoy



    There is no direct quote, even though John Kennedy and Damien Duff are interviewed, there is not one salient fact to back it up. Who made up this story and why?



    I can’t speak for The Herald article to which you refer but, in the sister newspaper, The Evening Times, the article by Alison McConnell was bold enough to include the headline “John Kennedy admits emotional pull of Celtic stopped him making Leicester move with Brendan Rodgers” and lead with the sentance “John Kennedy rebuffed the call to head to Leicester alongside Brendan Rodgers, Chris Davies and Kolo Toure with the 35-year-old insisting that the emotional pull of Celtic was too difficult to sever.” Now, that could be all made up nonsense but, if so, John Kennedy has colluded in it and has not spoken out about the assertion.



    More crucially, it does contain a direct quote (before this becomes a myth) from JK who says



    “There wasn’t a moment when I might have gone too…..I’d a great relationship with Brendan,” said Kennedy. “The first I spoke with him about this was Monday morning. He said he was probably going to speak with Leicester and to get ready to take the team.



    “Peter arrived at the training ground in the afternoon, discussed the possible plans and told me that I was wanted here, to prepare the team and if there was going to be an appointment that I’d be assistant manager.



    “For me, I’ve had a really close attachment with this club. A lot of people say it and that kind of stuff.



    “But I’ve spent a large chunk of my life here in terms of being a player and working behind the scenes. There’s certainly an emotional attachment there. To leave would be very difficult for me. This is another great opportunity for me to move up and progress and hopefully finish the job that’s been started.”




    Now, that story leaves a lot of wriggle room and space to insert your own timeline. You already gave yours in your post this morning. However there is an alternative order of events……



    BR tells JK he is leaving for Leicester and offers to take JK along (in case he loses his job in the afermath?)



    JK tells him , no thanks graciously. (as might Damien Duff if he was offered)



    BR offers to leave his coaching info with JK and leave him temporarily in charge of team matters.



    Along comes PL to tell JK that, he would like to offer him a continuing role and interim promotion to First Asst. coach ( as with all coaching offers- this is a temporary gamble- not a job for life)




    As I say, I have no inside information or contacts but, without this additional source of clarity, my version is just as plausible as the one you put forward.




    As for :-



    Is it the same folk who released the stories about the summer’s “China crisis”, the rehash of the McGinn saga, Brendan Rodgers eats babies etc etc…



    I don’t think that stands up to scrutiny. I heard the China Story from a source that claimed some first hand witness status way back. I never presented it on here and neither did my source (at this point, for the more paranoiac among us, may I point out that I have never met Peter Lawwell individually nor have I ever spoken to him nor anyone in the Celtic hierarchy, except Brian Wilson and that was back in the 70’s and had nothing to do with football). I saw no point in spreading a rumour that I could not substantiate, Sure MON managed to successfully sue a newspaper up here for stating he was in talks with an English club to leave Celtic, even though there was a great deal of truth in what the paper said (unusually for that rag.)



    I did not post the China rumour at the time because it served no purpose other than to advertise in a “I know something you don’t know” fashion. I did not post it because it could only harm us as a club while Brendan was here. But it did leave me with less a sense of betrayal at the end, as I believe (not know) this rumour to have been broadly true.



    Even after BR left, I still did not post what I’d heard about the China job. I hinted to you that it could make a difference to your evaluation of BR leaving , which you appear to be putting down to animosity with PL and a failure to back him, if I have you right. You stated it would not and I still did not release the story.



    The first I knew that the story had broken was when Harry Brady released what he had heard. Now crucially for your argument, that this was leaked by insiders to blacken BR, Harry appeared to put a different twist on it. He framed it as evidence that BR was already unhappy with PL and had looked at China in order to get out of his Parkhead Hell i.e. Harry had the same view as yourself.



    I do not hsare that over generous vindication of an existing theory. Seems to me that this is “Don’t let the facts get in the way of an interesting theory”.



    My interpretation is that when Celtic (or PL and DD) found out that BR was wanting to go, that is when the relationship really deteriorated nad we were dealing with a “want away” manager.



    I also believe that BR did a great professional job at Celtic whilst he was looking post-China for another suitable get out of Parkhead job. SO too did the players and so too did Boyata after he did the dirty on us for the AEK match.



    It is possible to trod a middle ground between believing PL is all bad and BR is all bad. Neither is a hero to me- just 2 ambitious guys who served Celtic well for a period and then left. They will never reach the level of a Stein or McNeill or MON but Brendan has my thnaks for the squad he left us and I continue to jope and believe that we will get through this season with a league title (The SC is less predictable)

  14. Matt Stewart on

    What follows is stunningly interesting…especially if you have been on the sauce for the best part of a week.



    As I leave my living room the light switch for the hall is outside the door on the wall to the left. Why in recent months do I keep reaching to the wall on the right to click it on?



    Anyway, my map of the world on the scullery wall has many wee flags on it marking places that have had the dubious pleasure of my presence. A notable unmarked treasure trove, Inveraray will no doubt be in raptures as it anticipates our arrival some time around lunchtime today. And so I rose early to get myself fully psyched up for the expedition north and stuck rigidly to some advice I found in the Guardian a few months ago concerning the ‘Breakfast of champions”.



    It seems that contrary to established lore the best way to kick start one’s metabolism is ……ta ra….Red Wine and Strawberries. Sadly I searched high and low and couldn’t find any strawberries so had to substitute them with two bags of Co-op cheese and onion crisps, which to be fair complemented the Co-op Limetree Merlot (a little known diamond fermented in Oz) stunningly well.



    “Get back to the point the point Matt!!!!” screams Agnes.



    “Who’s Agnes?”



    Well may you ask.



    Well never mind, she’s for a later wee meander round my synapses, and she’s upset because I am going to Inveraray and she wasn’t asked. Mind you neither was Mick but he was stoned out his skull at the time and was in no fit state to be consulted.



    But none of the above matters because that wasn’t what I wanted to say.



    So on Sunday (day six of being on the ultimate batter with an occasional half an hour’s kip to revitalise my blood cells and liver), me, Tony and Harry were watching the Dundee Utd v ICT game, sitting as always in the bucket seats in Sharkey’s Intellectual corner.



    As the clock ticked towards 4pm, a couple of bedraggled visitors from the land of the Mersey wandered in and asked if their wee local derby was available to watch.



    The Gorbals, ever cosmopolitan in its welcome, stuck it on the other telly above the entry door. But inadvertently swapped the commentary on our box and we ended up watching the Scottish cup game while listening to the scouse ramblings of the events at Goodison.



    The thing is ….No one really noticed or gave a toss. The roar of the crowd was enough.



    TV commentators are an effin waste of the airwaves.



    Obviously we do need radio commentators although not necessarily ones like Liam McCleod who witter on about things that he had for breakfast on the day he first went to school and then in the middle of his porridge description screams “It’s a goal”.



    When he is describing the action on the radio, I actually turn the sound off and imagine what is happening. I usually get a better view if the game by just watching ‘flash scores’ on my phone.



    I’ll have a lot more to say on this when I get back from Inveraray …so I’ll leave you with this.



    The Breakfast of champions and my packed lunch for the journey.






    Inveraray is in for a treat!



    As for the light switch conundrum…Agnes has just ‘enlightened’ me. Truly remarkable and I will reveal all in due course.



    Hail Hail




  15. Matt you need to take a long hard look at yourself , there’s at least another five spaces in that spice rack,go on man fill it up with spices you only ever use once…go on , go on you might find some exotic wans in Inveraray



    Have a great day oot



  16. SFtBs @ 9:09 AM,



    Yes, think it’s pretty much the same article… it’s headlined…



    John Kennedy: There was no chance I was leaving Celtic for Leicester City



    …in The Herald.



    As we now know and lets be clear – John Kennedy wasn’t offered a position at Leicester City. So why was the story framed to give the impression he was. The person writing this article had – the Lenny for caretaker story early Monday Morning (way before everyone else) and had the Brendan Rodgers “Exclusive” early Tuesday morning.



    If we read what JK is actually quoted as saying…



    “I’d a great relationship with Brendan,” said Kennedy. “The first I spoke with him about this was Monday morning. He said he was probably going to speak with Leicester and [for me] to get ready to take the [Celtic] team.



    So, BR had not been formally offered the position and didn’t offer John a position. JK is very clear on their “first” conversation on this subject.



    “Now, that could be all made up nonsense but, if so, John Kennedy has colluded in it and has not spoken out about the assertion.”



    Well, there you have it!! Why would anyone put John Kennedy in that position… not a very nice vista is it?



    We have Phil Mac saying similar to Alison McConnell, having BR taking three layers of Celtic backroom staff –


    he states Damien Duff told Brendan where to go and claims this comes from a “Celtic Source”.



    On the China Crisis thing, Yes I remember you saying. I’d love to hear your take on it please. But can totally understand why you’d keep it stumn…



    As we know Harry Brady is a IB who is very close to the Celtic Board… so his take/spin is very interesting…



    “They will never reach the level of a Stein or McNeill or MON”



    So very true, as a wiser man than I put it…



    …Paradise Lost…



    Hail Hail

  17. An Tearmann,



    Thank you for highlighting the removal of my post, regarding Neil Lennon and his future possible employment at Celtic.



    There definitely was a post because Kinglubo responded to it, (and others have contacted me by text)



    KINGLUBO on 2ND MARCH 2019 11:20 AM





    That was my exact thinking as well. In the past, the board had loads of opportunities to back him up



    I will now contact the mods to find out why my post was removed as , if I recall correctly, there was no profanity etc.



    I am not so precious about my witterings as to record them.


    Could there be an editorial bias on moderation?




  18. Back to Basics @ 9.03



    Hochhuth is WEST German and certainly not a communist. Look at Wikipedia.




    Good to see you posting!



    Hope you and your lovely lady are very well!

  20. Apologies to mods.



    Not editorial bias simply I may have mentioned something about a fatherless Irish Catholic being less than apologetic.



    My mistake, sorry.




  21. mike in toronto on

    A relatively quiet week on CQN



    I’m stuck on a 2 hour train ride to the middle of nowhere for a hearing …. so, if there is no news, could someone at least start a good rumor to pass the time? Thanks

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