Make what you wish of Strathclyde Police reporting Celtic fans for “illicit chanting” to a Uefa match observer in October, the bottom line is that Uefa have fined Celtic €15,000 (around £12,700), established a benchmark for future action and more importantly sullied the club’s reputation.
Job done by those who wanted this confrontation to happen.
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Chelsea have a very small team dont they
Good Evening,
It is a sad reflection of Scottish society in 2011 that Paul’s two posts today start with the Scottish Government’s apparent need to hide the state of Sectarianism that is extant in Scotland today, and end with a report on the fine imposed by Eufa for supposed illicit singing or chanting.
I am afraid it is in times like these I revert to my former self, and dust down a past long left behind.
To explain what I mean by that let me start at the end so to speak.
I have no time for those who collect public data and then seek to bury the findings simply because the result does not suit them. That is Government of the Politburo of the 70’s. Worse still, to hide such figues so as to cover up endemic discrimination and sectarianism is an abuse of Governmental Power. It took Abraham Lincoln just two minutes to deliver the Gettysburg address and to emphasise “Government of the people, for the people, by the people”– a saying which all supposed democracies would find hard to argue with.
If I am one of those people. I do not want to find that my Government chooses to suppress data and statistics which may lead right minded folk to determine for themself what sort of Government of the people, by the people , for the people should take place. I do not want the collected data held in the dark and only discussed in the hushed corridors, and behind the closed doors, of power. Clearly, Freedom of information is not something that this Government subscribes to as a whole, and if it is not mature enough to believe in such freedoms, it is not mature enough to govern an independent Scotland. The End– full stop.
On the singing and chanting???
I personally do not like the sort of singing that will get MY football club into trouble with any authority. I support a club that has a proud and unique history among football clubs, in that it was started to feed the poor and underpriveledged and that its roots and ethos stem from a desire for social justice for all men, women and children from any walk of life, any faith, and any country. That ethos and credo was established at a time when there was blatant and virtually lawful discrimination— if it was not declared specifically unlawful then it was lawful. Nothing can ever be “nearly illegal”, it is either illegal or it is not. So at the time discrimination– sectarianism— was more than just alive and kicking. It was not made unlawful and so was practised freely.
I want Celtic to be recognised as it was in 2003. As the club with UNIQUE fans, fans like no other club, fans who travel in such numbers that it is hard to behold, and fans who behave in such numbers that they are welcomed throughout the world with open arms and who the “authorities” cannot ignore and have no option but to praise from the high heavens.
Make no mistake, EUFA and FIFA are in many ways about money, and the bhoys in Seville brought more money to the Spanish City than any other club in Europe could bring to any other city. Where was the Champions league final that year and who won? Do you think the host City would have swapped with Seville for the so called lesser tournament? You bet your bippy it would– in retrospect. With the Celtic fans, Seville and EUFA hit the jackpot! The aftermath was that each and every city wanted Celtic to come out of the hat to visit their city. They wanted their share of the Green pound– and EUFA knew it.
Now, we are tarnished as being the other half of the blue coin.
Let me make something abundantly clear in that case. Whilst we might think such a viewpoint is unjust and unwarranted– and I will come back to that—– I would walk over hot coals to avoid being in anyway associated with the reputation that has been garnerd by that other support. En masse, they are not of my ilk or to my like. I mean no offence when I say that, there are many good rangers supporting fans, but I genuinely believe that their general and collective football supporting experience bears no relation to the happy festival like atmosphere that I have enjoyed over 5 decades now in many European countries and beyond. I want OUR established brand of football support— I want NOTHING– not the merest shadow– of theirs!
Accordingly, I am with Paul in asking, requesting, begging if you like, those fans who sings songs which could tarnish that reputation to desist. Whether at home or away, whether in jest or in reverence, whether they be many or few. Please just stop– we have plenty else to sing about.
I also say that as the son of an Irishman, as someone who believes in the right of the Irish People to self determination, to freedom of speech and self governance in whatever form they so choose. That is a basic and holy right as far as I am concerned.
I also say all of the above with a deep love of Irish folk music and Culture– in fact all Celtic ( with a hard C ) folk music and culture– but particularly Irish music and culture. It is what I was raised with, what sits deep within my soul, courses through my blood , and fills my spirit. It will always be mixed with a love of history and belief,and hope, and history will always be full of insurrection and rebellion in days gone by. In the past I have been dismayed by some of the dreadful ad ons once previously sung at Celtic Park. Some of the songs that were sung by our fans were intolerable as far as I was concerned– even more offensive that the ones from across the city— because we were better then that, we were never the other half of their coin. Not then, not now and not tomorrow. At least — not for me!
But Today, those songs are gone thank God. In the main we have a whole canon of songs to sing, about players, about games past, about our history and support. What’s more, we have new songs and adaptations for the very best of reasons. Just can’t get enough– upbeat,happy and supporting the Thai tims. We could sing all day if we so chose and would offend no one.
So personally, I would leave the “Ra” songs at the door of Celtic park on a Saturday or any other day– purely becuase I want to advance the club and its reputation. Not the Board. Not the shareholder. Not the investors— but the ordinary everyday support, the history, the ethos and the spirit of Celtic in itself.
However.
With all of that said there is no doubt in my mind that Celtic should appeal the EUFA decision.
It should appeal with all force, intelligence, legal justification, and moral fortitude because this decision is wrong and the message that it is wrong should be spelt out loud and clear to the Authorities at Eufa, Hampden and Holyrood.
While I don’t want to bring us into conflict with the authorities, I have no hesitation in challenging those authorities with vigour when whenever that is warranted. That, too, is what Celtic is about when needs must. That too stems from our history and culture.
As yet we know nothing about why Eufa reached the decision they did. Until that comes through then we are only left to speculate.
I heard Jim Traynor say that Celtic will appeal as they are shocked that they have been fined for a first offence so to speak– especially given the excellent track record that has been established by the support. That is a good point, and past record and first offence should be considered. Eufa should also act consistently and recognise the steps that Celtic take to prevent any offensive singing by the support– as was recognised by the SPL.
However, these points are secondary– very secondary— in the land where I live.
Illicit is not the same as offensive, or sectarian, or unacceptable. Illicit means ” Not legally permitted or authorised, unlicensed, disaproved of for moral or ethical reasons”.
Remember that up above I said that something cannot be almost illegal or unlawful– it has to be determined specifically unlawful or illegal. Similarly, something cannot almost be illicit— it either is, or is not.
I was at the Rennes match and from my seat in section 202 I could not hear any singing that was offensive or illicit.
So who did this singing and what was it?
I am not one of those who takes the view that even if one or two people sing something offensive then that brings you within the scope of the Eufa section. There has to be a concerted part of the crowd singing or chanting anything to make the charge make sense. Otherwise, one wee man, singing something totally disgusting or unlawful on his own amongst sixty or seventy thousand at any match at any ground could get the hosts prosecuted. Does that make sense of the legislation? No– of course not!
So let us presume, that the offence was occasioned by the Celtic Symphony and that part of the song which says “Ooh ah up the Ra! x 6 on two occasions.
For a start, many sing Ooh ah up the Celts, and personally If I could get the Wolfe Tomes to re-record the song with those lyrics I would. However the fact is that the song ws recorded with those words.
And here we come to the legal nub, because whilst it may annoy Strathclyde Police and the Scottish Government. they have absolutely no jurisdiction in this matter and the absolute clear law of the land. That song is fully Licensed according to UK law, it is not and has not been declared unlawful by any authority in any jusridiction under any law.
The Celtic Symphony has bee deemed fit for general release with that chorus by the Public Censor. It can be freely bought in HMV, Amazon, Itunes and many other public stores both on the High Street and online.
Censorship, in Great Britain has a long and strict history, the second strictest in Europe behind Germany. It is not to my knowledge a devolved power and so Holyrood is not permitted to create its own level of censorship in the recording arts.
The song is also to be found on DVD’s which are again subjected to the public censor.
Further still, record companies and retail outlets have further layers of censorship which they invoke from time to time– even when the public censor has allowed something, the stores have invoked their own standards and refused to sell something—– and yes this particular song has passed their scrutiny too.
At every level of examination, that song with those words have passed all forms of scrutiny and censorship invoked in the United Kingdom.
Whatsmore, unlike other songs, it does not invoke any sectarian thought or suggestion, does not discriminate against colour, does not celebrate death or violence, does not glorify being up the knees in anything, nor falls into a category that would breach, of itself, the law of the land.
The song can be sung anywhere without fear of prosecution.
So why does it fall foul of the law if sung at Celtic Park?
The answer is that it doesn’t. A look at the lyrics tells you that the song is a bout the mythical idea of a visit to this very ground to watch this very team. You might not like it, you might not sing it– but the authors wrote it about the jungle of old that once stood in Paradise. So it is a song that belongs in the stadium technically. As for the Ra bit– well it is recounting Grafitti on the wall at that time– what 20 years ago?
I said earlier that songs about the past will always be in part about insurrection and rebellion— in many ways the full lyrics of the sonhg say the same thing. Perhaps here though, the past is just too recent for some?
Legally, this charge should be knocked right out of the court– right out of the ground so to speak– not because I want the song with those words– I don’t– but because to allow the decison to stand merely delays an argument and a legal debate which we are destined not to have in this land unless it is in a court and at the expense of an individual– and Celtic are not about that. The club have a duty to attack the decision and explore the legalities in the proper jurisdiction, rather than let an individual fan mount the same argument at his or ger expense and at his or her risk. If Celtic were ever a “club” for social justice– the this is an occasion for that Club to take the lead. Besisdes, this is precisely what the outgoing chairman said at the last AGM.
Lest you think that this is mere legalese for the sake of it, there have been many attempts by Strathclyde Police over the years to bring prosecutions for things that someone didn’t like. Whether the prosecution be under the obscene publications Act, The Video Recordings Act, The Official Secrets Act or whatever, at all times the legalities had to be tested and in most cases the authorities are found wanting in their idea of the law. But someon ehas to take a stand first.
I recall being in Glasgow District Court when HMV were on trial for selling videos already approved by the Censor. The fiscal concerned nearly wet himself when faced with no less a personage than Lord McCluskey of Langside suddenly appearing and bringing the full weight of his legal knowledge and expertise to the matter under consideration. The Police, in reporting to the fiscal, had not considered the role of the censor and his powers or duties. They had certainly not considered the legal consequences of the censors decision– consequences that even the crown office have to abide by. Same with Eufa. Same with the SFA and the SPL.
So appeal!
That is what Celtic must do now– though given the past comments it may be prudent to change Queens Counsel as in my view Mr McBride needlessly overstepped the mark on this issue, although what is said within a court room on behalf of a client is different to what is said by way of private opinion on the airways. But still……….
I would bin the chant and all reference to anything that sully’s the reputation of my fellow Celtic supporter, but we should stand against injustice, argue our case and show our strength…. and never ever accept as being seen as the other half of a tarnished coin.
Listen matey your posts were spot on today and the main one on scotslaw was unreal and it’s now out in the open.
I hope you don’t mind i emailed it to phil,paul and joe orourke to get it out there.
corrib04 is Neil Lennon says:
12 December, 2011 at 20:10
you are absoloutly entitled to express your opinions,we live in a democracy after all,
thanks for the clarification.
HH
celtic *o* lennon * KANO 1,000 * says:
12 December, 2011 at 21:02,
Like a few on here, they’re making assumptions.
Árd Macha
Brogan Rogan
Fantastic post as always, we must appeal this ruling!
hen1rik says:
12 December, 2011 at 21:06
Listen matey your posts were spot on today and the main one on scotslaw was unreal and it’s now out in the open.
I hope you don’t mind i emailed it to phil,paul and joe orourke to get it out there.
………………………………
Thanks for the compliment I post what I feel and can’t take any credit for the Scots Law Reporter that is a blog and not mine. I do agree with the sentiments on it however and though not able to confirm the sources the blogger uses I do know about the Leslie case which was sinister in the extreme.
The SLR site has not been afraid to post what others may shy away from so good luck to them.
Hope all who voted for this fat self serving ‘would be dictator’ and his wee head prefect sidekick are happy…….
We got what we voted for, and stand by for some unchecked and undemocratic agendas coming to the fore……
Not to win independence….he only really cares about his own power. The other lot in the party owe him big time so no schisms emerging within the ranks……
In all fairness the other parties are an even bigger disgrace in their complete inneptitude……I saw Jim Murphy with his lad at CP on Saturday, why oh why could labour not have hedged a bet and encouraged him to go for it this time, in the same way Salmond did…..
Just looking at the disgraceful media manipulation to suggest their 2010 alcohol legislation (introduced in october !!) was working, at the weekend when all that is happened is that folk have started buying on the net and we have lost control of audited and verifiable scottish data so they can now say what they want to make their case for illegal minimum alcohol pricing……….
This lot will stop at nothing and we voted them in ! We voted for this shambles of an entity which has cost us millions and delivered a few media jobs to those sad paracistes who now fawn over their every utterance……a disgusting wee pathetic anachronism of a region or provence that is Scotland in 2011.
Ard Macha
Well she sure as hell made it sound like a fact
Big Nan says:
12 December, 2011 at 21:11
I would love nothing more if someone has a hard copy of this data.
Watching the game,why do man city put the ball out to let a chelsea player get treatment
when chelsea had made no effort to do so as they were trying to build an attack
TheOriginalSadiesBhoy says:
12 December, 2011 at 20:40.
Well said,sir !
Admirable clarity of thought.
Post of the Day Award to You.*
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan supports Kano 1000 says:
12 December, 2011 at 21:04
Great post buddy
thefuturesmine says:
12 December, 2011 at 20:47
Di Canio has obviously bought into the 2 cheeks of the same arse nonsense
I hate bigots of all faiths.
Brogan,
Great post. I would have Paul McBride as our lawyer; he is on a retainer, I presume. He would have to do his best and his best is the best there is in Scotland. It doesn’t matter what his own views are. It is the law he has to argue.
Incidentally we no longer live in a democracy.
And the Celtic Board are about to take a decision which may start a schism in the club which will be unstoppable
What say we for the Celtic Party – open to all. Always have been always will be!
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan supports Kano 1000 says:
12 December, 2011 at 21:04
You manage to capture the spirit, the sense and integrity of what being a Celtic fan is all about …you probably echo the thoughts of 95%
I don’t tell you that often enough…tho’ always thinking it
continued power to your pen
HH
M
I see a lot of our support are now starting to realise what I have been warning about for some time with regard to the SNP. Now some would say I would as I am an elected politician in Glasgow but as I was genuine then and I still have grave concerns about the Nats.
When I posted warnings some time ago a lot of contributors had a go at me and to be honest the Nats are very good at manipulating the new media they have made it into an art-form.
Indeed when I mentioned that the SNP have not had a Cabinet secretary that is a Roman Catholic, some people questioned the source of my information, I stated at the time (before the May election) that Labour MSPs often would wind up the Nats as they knew they were vulnerable on the issue.
I am saddened as a practicing Catholic that my Church has fell for the cash from the SNP and its donors, indeed they have strategically placed advisors who are former SNP election candidates at senior levels in the Church, I have had to listen to friends tell me how the Church are actively support a Party that was formed partly to stem the flow of Irish immigrants into Scotland. My only comparison is Imams at the local Mosque in 20 years’ time asking its congregation to vote BNP, maybe if Nick the racist could get to financially support money going to the Moslem society they could contemplate voting BNP, I am sure Moslems would not sell themselves in this way, my Church has a very dodgy record in this regard just as they openly supported the Tories a couple of generations ago.
I was sure Salmond’s advisers would get him to drop this stupid piece of legislation before it caused a problem to the support he had made in-roads with, but they have kept on digging they even have infuriated RFC supporters in the process. I still think we as a support will have to form a fighting fund for us to challenge this law when it is enacted as it can’t comply with ECHR.
What is even more disturbing is the section 74 statistical information that has been destroyed this is breath-taking in how blatantly they treat us with contempt, the dogs in the street can tell you where the sectarianism in this country stems from and most could give you suggestions on how to eradicate it, but I am afraid few politicians have the bottle to do something about it, when we in Glasgow decided to reduce the number of Orange walks in Glasgow the O.O. stated to the Herald this was the reason they informed their members to vote SNP in May, so we had the O.O. and the catholic Church both assisting the SNP to an election victory, I despair.
I have noticed few cyber-Nats on CQN recently telling us all how great it will be in an Independent Scotland or attacking posters supporting the Labour Party, I remember 1978 when before the referendum on devolution the O.O. set up the Scottish Loyalist Party I even remember the TV documentary about it as many of the activists were known to me in the East End.
Independence be careful what you wish for especially if you are a Celtic supporter.
Parkheadcumsalford says:
12 December, 2011 at 21:22
McBride has made it clear he supports all the repressive moves that have been made and that are planned.
He’s an intolerant, garrulous authoritarian, and a self serving one at that. I wouldn’t trust him as far as I can spit.
Burnley78,
That’s my bhoy, well said.
You sure enough got this ONE SCOTLAND well and truly sussed.
Horrible wee country, and the Rangers support are at the bottom of the ladder, they are the ones who take the spotloght off the Establishment.
Rangers football club and Ibrox stadium represent all that is wrong with our society.
Msartin42
Saddened tonight, saddened that the team I love have been fined by the athuorities.
I have no idea whether the songs being mentioned where sung at the game or not. I also have no idea how to solve the issue of our club being dragged down to the gutter by certain individuals in the government, press etc.
What I do know is something has to be done and quick, i’m sure as most of you on here (if not all?), dont want to be in this position again. I guarantee the microphones will be up full blast at every game we play from now on. I hope every fan, home and away, do their bit for the love of the club.
I hope we can get back to talking about the football soon.
ernie lynch,
You may well be right but he is still one of the best lawyers in Scotland. He must be professional enough to do his job.
Is there a particular reason why a local authority would put only blue and white lights on a Christmas tree (twenty foot high, in town square)?
Is it a hun thing or a Scottish thing?
Brogan – who needs Paul McBride on a retainer when we have you. Top post!
My dear,dear,dear,friend.. Dushanbe BillyBhoy
Hiya..Pally?
So there ye ur..
Gazing absently-mindedly oot at the Landscape..
thinking…
“Bauxite, Bauxite.. everywhere an no a drap tae Drink!”
Ma Views oan whit tae dae aboot the Band o’ Buggers.. who bring shame and degradation upon the Hoose o’ Celtic .ur weel known.. aroon the Kojo Campfire..
” Hang the Dossers.. then… Cut them doon.. and
Hang ’em .. Again!”
‘
‘Tis the only way tae get shot o’ awe the Idiotas..
who are causing us shame.
Pleading tae their Better Sels.. dinna woik..
Fur they are Bereft of Uncommon Sense..
and… Responsibility fur their actions..
Hang ’em High!
The time fur gentle Persuasion is past.
And that is awe she wrote..
Kojo
yer pal..who likes ye aloater
BRTH,excellent.
ernie lynch says:
12 December, 2011 at 21:26
Parkheadcumsalford says:
12 December, 2011 at 21:22
McBride has made it clear he supports all the repressive moves that have been made and that are planned.
He’s an intolerant, garrulous authoritarian, and a self serving one at that. I wouldn’t trust him as far as I can spit.
share
……………………………………….
He also has currency invested in the Bill and his support of it is puzzling. Unless of course he is ready to jump ship once again and join the SNP? It’s all I can think of as this Bill is a laughing matter among lawyers. Aiden O’Neill the top QC on Human Rights says it is the worst piece of legislation he has ever seen!
ernie
maybe something to do with the national colours ….;-)
relax maannnnn
HH
M
Parkheadcumsalford says:
12 December, 2011 at 21:30
It’s all academic anyway, the Celtic board aren’t going to challenge anything.
Gents, if I may…..
Get on this site and let your elected representatives know what you think. I just sent them exactly what I was thinking about the whole stinking fit-up they are proposing
http://www.writetothem.com
NegAnon
I don’t know what you’re hearing or from whom and I’m not asking, but after reading several statements from you in which you paint a picture of the Catholic bishops of Scotland courting the SNP, I wanted to register my strong disagreement.
The Scottish Catholic Media Office website lists statements from the bishops in the build-up to Holyrood and Westminster elections dating back to 1999. There is nothing to lend any weight to your argument. Nothing.
The most recent statement, in April 2011 before this year’s Scottish Parliament elections, urged Catholic voters to take part and to consider Catholic social teaching when deciding how to vote. The statement specifically included this paragraph (my emphasis):
Catholic Social Teaching is helpful, addresses all areas of social policies and is independent of party political considerations. The Bishops’ Conference has made a resource available, which we recommend to all parishes and individuals for gaining an insight into Catholic Social Teaching.
It goes on to give readers a link to a website that adds more depth about specific issues (right to life, marriage and family, economic justice, education …). It is the work of John Deighan, a lay person, who is the Catholic Church in Scotland’s parliamentary officer. John’s job is to monitor for the bishops political developments at Holyrood and to talk to the government and politicians from all parties about issues the Church feels strongly about (see above). I have spoken to John and like him very much, but do not know him well and could not tell you anything about his political background. He has been doing this job for at least nine years. If he were validly to be accused of tendentiousness, there is no way he could have remained in his job. He’d have to find something else to do.
The Scottish Catholic Media Office is run by Peter Kearney, a lay person. I believe Peter was once an SNP candidate for one of the elections, but a long time ago. I have worked with him directly and he has put me in touch with politicians from all parties. He has always been helpful, knowledgeable, responsive and professional. Again, I would suggest he could not have remained in his job were it otherwise. I like him too.
By definition, people doing the jobs that John and Peter do have to be political animals. I don’t know either of them socially but would venture to suggest that, whatever their current political loyalties, the Church would have the first claim on the loyalty of both. You might want to argue that it should not have, but that’s a separate matter. Their contact details are on their websites. I’m sure they would give you a fuller answer if you asked them.
I’m not sure if this will help the debate or not, but if I interpret your posts on this subject correctly, you seem to be saying that the bishops have tried to effect some kind of trade-off with the SNP and, therefore, share some of the blame with regard to how the SNP is now treating the Catholic community (regarding the government’s failure to publish the Section 74 stats, principally, but arguably also in the new bill and in the government’s work with the police to single out Celtic supporters of all faiths and none for special treatment). If this is a correct interpretation of the direction your comments are going in, I am moved to object as I think this notion is unfair.
Yours in Celtic …
Is flying the Tricolor illicit flag flying???
Brogan Rogan Trevino and Hogan supports Kano 1000 says:
12 December, 2011 at 21:04
excellent, can I nomiate you to be our fans board rep when the trust win their resolution at the next AGM :)
81′ pen chelski
lampard 2-1
guys
what evidence is their of Catholic Church collusion with SNP ?
am loast there !
seems to me it suits plenty folk to say “oh aye am a Catholic” when they feel like it
including now when a body (UEFA) fine the all-holy Celtic, you want a totally un-related organisation to step up and defend them
last week the Cardinal said publicy that this SNP government is pushing legislation that would SHAME Scotland !
can you please indicate to me where in that there is collusion with the SNP ?
i may be wrong – but this is 1st time ah’ve heard of such collusion – maybe i missed somethin
Chelski go 2-1 up with a Lampard penalty
Their 1st shot on target in the 2nd half