I don’t get the flares thing. It’s not a part of my going-to-see-Celtic tradition. But if it was my thing, I’d have the courage of my convictions, I wouldn’t hide the fact.
There are consequences of bringing flares to football games, always has been. By not having the courage to openly ignite them, those consequences are not personalised to the individuals who regard this as an integral part of what they do at a football game, they are visited upon everyone in the vicinity, as well as the club.
The problem with flares at Celtic games is those who bring them hide the fact – as they clearly know there are consequences, and presumably aren’t too interested in taking responsibility for them. ‘Keen on flares, not keen enough to stand up for them’, is why the issue persists.
I get the attraction to bright, shiny, things, but this isn’t a campaign to bring the vote to disenfranchised people against a force who will execute the offender on sight. It’s about bringing a flare to a football game. If it’s so important, do it openly. If you think Health and Safety are simply wrong, find the evidence and use it in court. Have the courage to change something. I know lots of Celtic fans who have had the courage to put their name to something they believed in, in recent years. It’s seldom easy, but it has been done.
But in the years of this debate no one has ever pointed to evidence that igniting flares in a football ground is a clever thing to do. It’s just a ‘look at me’ exercise, ‘But don’t look at my face’, of course.
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Episode 5 of ‘A Celtic State of Mind’ finds Paul John Dykes and Kevin Graham discussing a variety of topical subjects concerning Celtic Football Club, including:
* What now for the Green Brigade?
* Dedryck Boyata – Are reinforcements on route?
* Virgil van Dijk – The windfall cometh;
* Emilio Izaguirre – Moving on.
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Macjay
Celtic have 5 charges from the games v Linfield.
Leigh Griffiths scarfgate.
5 bookings.
Wearing sponsor logo on bibs.
Stewards and Polis blocking stairwells.
Offensive banner.
4 charges against Celtic FC.
1 charge against Celtic supporters.
Who has cost us the bigger fine here?
MacKay, the answer is not obviously yes, but you know that.
A little gratitude from the PLC to the GB might not go amiss!
There is a relationship between the GB and PLC, that means mutual respect.
At times the GB lack that, at time the PLC have lacked that, a bit of a two way street.
Compromise is what is needed, not confrontation.
DELANEYS DUNKY on 23RD JULY 2017 11:29 PM
Had memorable days there with Ian Wallace ;-)
HH
TGM –
The Man wants Peace.
The GB used Brendan twice Dailly.
I am thinking.
Sorry I will stop that.
Rascar capac.CSC
Pete
Pick a game and we can support my Godson doon the Rock. Might even meet his coach Ian Durrant? :)
Petec
No worries.
You can say what you like to me.
You know that.
I didnt like to see Brendan peed off either.
He is a top man, dont like to see him worried.
HH
What a Basement Jack
DD
Id be up for that.
Sometime soon, go see Chris play.
HH
SA
Poor Ian. Another Bankie who drank it all away. Sad.
DD… hopefully next game. I dinnae like Dumbarton after what happened with Aidy.
Respect the Fitba rooooood Dudes.
Why are 900 supporters being persecuted for the deeds of a few?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g
TGM
Good man.
Got to support clan McLaughlin.
SA
Thats what im asking?
Why tar everyone with the same brush?
Thats hardly fair.
HH
The Green Man I won’t be happy until I have you on My Bach…… Me carrying you 100 feet.
PIL
DD
Yeah, id look forward to that bud:)
We would have a blast:)
HH
Petec
No matter what, im in your corner, remember that:)
HH
I will be standing
THE GREEN MAN SAYS SACK THE BOARD on 23RD JULY 2017 11:50 PM
Dont see why we cant weigh them all going in?
Delaneys ,
i have done a few hospitality days for laddies down at Dumbarton,
great wee club and very welcoming they were
TGM,
Mum is the strongest ever.
Incredible.
God Bless Celtic
TGM
We need to make it a date doon the Rock.
My sis and family would love you.
All fenian McLaughlin’s ;)
SA
We know the banners were not wise.
However, there are a few things that dont quite add up.
Security for example, what was their role in this?
HH
Come on then! Peter Lawwell take’s on the Green Brigade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcxKIJTb3Hg
HH
Gordy
Invite Chris’ best pal Brad and we make a day of it in Dumbarton hospitality a game soon.
Sounds magic.
Scottie and Ralston
oui wee, Si
TR number 10
Fight for every ball Celtic.
DELANEYS DUNKY on 23RD JULY 2017 11:37 PM
In this instance , the relative distribution of the fines is not the principle factor.
All the other issues are fixable with relative ease .
And should not be permitted to recur .
The GB continue to flout the rules on an ongoing basis.
They show no sign of intending to observe the rules in future in spite of previous consultation.
The tail wants to wag the dog.
Enough , mate.
Its not in Celtic`s interests to allow this nonsense to continue.
DD
That would be excellent:)
Lets do that soon.
My relations somewhere along the line:)
HH
EVERY ball.
Fairly.
The Celtic way.
Fair, Always.
Macjay@ 11:58
You have made some very fair points.
However, the PLC are not blameless in this whole scenario.
You cant deny that the PLC are quite happy to use the GB when it suits their purposes.
Thats too easy to prove.
Maybe a bit of humility on both sides would help?
HH
Me, DD, and the G playing Snooker.
I’d guess not a lot of balls would be potted.
The Templars.
DOC on 23RD JULY 2017 11:38 PM
MacKay, the answer is not obviously yes, but you know that.
A little gratitude from the PLC to the GB might not go amiss!
There is a relationship between the GB and PLC, that means mutual respect.
At times the GB lack that, at time the PLC have lacked that, a bit of a two way street.
Compromise is what is needed, not confrontation.
=========================================================
Ah, the Chamberlain approach. :-)
What respect should be accorded to those who continue to flaunt UEFA`S rules on an ongoing basis.
With no , according to their statement , apparent intention of changing their ways.
A touch less than sfa.
What we need now is for a Green Brigade member to break under questioning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EI7p2p1QJI
HH
TGM, Using Brendan was WRONG.
You better Believe.
Petec
I agree bud.
Dont like to see Brendan peed off.
HH
TGM
If you are fae near Ramelton, Donegal? They maybe your cousins.
Will organise a dayoot at Dumbarton hospitality soon. You, Pete and Gordy hopefully?
TREBLE WINNING CAPTAINS @ 8:15 PM,
That’s an amusing and interesting piece on the Continuity Myth. LNS used the Owner and Operator definition to try to explain the two entities in one…
“Rangers Football Club (“Rangers FC”) was at all material times owned and operated by Oldco. Rangers FC has no separate legal personality but it has an identity which is recognised by the Articles of Association of SPL Limited, the Rules of the SPL, the parties to the agreement at SPL 100 and Newco, see SPL 40. “
This is the SPL definition of a Club…
“Club means an association football club, other than a Candidate Club, which is, for the time being, eligible to participate in the League and, except where the context otherwise requires, includes the owner and operator of such club;”
Of course the author(s) of the SPL Articles are not going to be winning any crystal mark awards for plain English. Let’s take out the parts that don’t apply to Oldco – other than a Candidate Club – and – except where the context otherwise requires…
“Club means an association football club, which is, for the time being, eligible to participate in the League and, includes the owner and operator of such club;”
Now this makes it clear the Football Club includes the Owner Operator. Why include this, well an owner operator could be another Legal Entity, such as a Parent Company, in which case the SPL would want jurisdiction over that Company.
So the phrase is put in to ensure any Parent Company applies by the rules.
There was a case in England where Southampton FC transfered is substantial debts to the parent company. This Company went bust, leaving the Southampton Club debt free, or so they thought. The EFL was having none of it and declared the money Football debt.
So of course an Owner Operator can be a different legal entity but we all know that in Rangers case it wasn’t.
But what of a Club being sold as a separate entity from its legal entity, well I would argue that the description above puts the Owner Operator as an integral part of the Football Club and not the other way around I.e having any form of separacy.
There’s an important disagreement in the Document…
Paragraphs 2 and 6 of the list of preliminary issues advance essentially the same argument, which is that on 14 June 2012, when the business and assets of Oldco were purchased and transferred to Newco, Rangers FC ceased to be a Club as defined in the Rules, and is accordingly not subject to the jurisdiction of the SPL, and thus of this Commission, in relation to any breach or breaches of the Rules committed in the period prior to that date. The SPL disputes that Rangers FC ceased to be a Club on 14 June 2012, and argues that the relevant date is 3 August 2012; but in our view nothing turns on the exact date, as all the breaches alleged in the Notice of Commission relate to a period before the earlier of these two dates.
Now isn’t this interesting as this gets to the Crux of the matter in the definition of the “Football Club”. And as usual with any key decision the LNS Commission Ducks it.
So what are the arguments…
Well Charles Green is arguing that when he bought the ” basket of assets” on 14 June 2012 that Rangers FC ceased to be a Football Club.
Well guess he has a point Rangers FC PLC at that point ceased to be a Football Club as it did not have the paraphernalia of a Football Club these assets were owned by Sevco Scotland.
In fact when the STV broke the news Sevco Scotland owned Rangers and not Sevco 5088 Charles Green issued the Sevco Statement…
https://rangers.co.uk/news/headlines/sevco-statement/
Of course Sevco Scotland was not a Member of the SPL or SFA – Charles Green was trying to build and register his basket of assets as a Football Club.
So what of the SPL argument that Rangers ceased to be a Club on August 3rd (2012). Well this is our canny Mr McKenzie again, he realises that if he accepted Charles argument that the Club ceased to exist on 14 June 2012, then it wouldn’t have been a Football Club again until the 5 way agreement on 27 July 2012 and Sevco Scotland became The Rangers FC Ltd, a member of the SFA and SFL.
That’s six weeks it’s ceased to be hardly Continuity, it points to the Old Football Club ceasing to be and the New Football Club coming into existence a month and a half later.
But what of Mr McKenzie’s argument does it have merit, well yes…
What he is referring to is date Oldco Finishes being a Football Club, it’s SPL membership and it’s Share is transferred to Dundee FC.
Okay, let’s try to follow that logic then…
According to LNS the owner operator can sell a Football Club to another owner operator.
In this case they argue Rangers FC PLC sold the Football Club to Sevco Scotland.
Right, well NO!!!
‘Cause according to Mr McKenzie’s arguement Rangers FC PLC were a Football Club until they transferred their Share in 3 August 2012.
How can both Sevco Scotland and Rangers FC PLC be owner operator of Rangers FC at the same time. I.e. 14 June 2012 until 3 August 2012.
They CANNOT, the myth of Continuity is Indeed Sophistry.
According to the SPL, Sevco Scotland Couldn’t Own and Operate Rangers until Rangers FC PLC transferred it’s share but also according to the SPL Rangers FC ceased to be a Club on that date.
It is patent nonsense which is the reason an other important issue in the Rangers saga was disregarded by the LNS Commission.
We need a REVIEW.
Hail Hail
SA
I watched that movie in Carlisle, 1980 i think?, its sheer genius.:)
It was banned in Glasgow at the time.
A full cinema there to be shocked. Me and my mate were in fits of laughter, we were the only ones.
Surreal experience.
HH
Delaneys,
Brad had a wee do last night in Divas for his 21st,
i had previous plans and never made it,
will get a hold of him and plan a wee trip to Dumbarton