The Daily Record today report: “Record Sport understands Rangers would fight tooth and nail against any move to impose more than the statutory 10-point penalty” in the event “the Ibrox side have to start again under a new name”, presumably if the existing company ceases to exist.
If the Record are, in fact, reporting Rangers’ position accurately, this is the first salvo in their campaign to gain control of the consequences of a corporate failure.
The Record go on to say: “Clubs who can’t exit administration by a CVA must hand over their assets to a new entity and after shares [in the SPL]are transferred to a new company agreement has to be reached with the SPL over a return to the top flight”.
The glaring observations from this aspiration is, of course, that agreement does not have to be reached with the SPL over a return to the top flight, and that clubs who cannot exit administration by a CVA (Creditors Voluntary Agreement) must dispose of their assets to the benefit of the unsecured creditors.
The debate is framed by the newspaper to suggest a range of outcomes of between 10-25 points is possible for Rangers Newco FC to pick-up the SPL shares and league position of the existing Rangers FC, with a 25 point deduction being wholly unpalatable to the new company.
There must be absolutely no presumption that a newly formed company, who happen to own Ibrox, are entitled to parachute into the SPL ahead of the current Scottish Football League members, or ahead of an existing SPL team in a relegation spot. In the event of a club failure the league can and, if necessary, must complete the season with 11 teams only.
Scottish football cannot establish a system whereby an oligopoly can vote on a system which stiffs creditors and prejudices competitors outside of the oligopoly. Football across the world is trying to clean up its reputation, we cannot allow Scotland to become a laughing stock. Let your club know your feelings on how they should vote when the time comes. It’s time for fans of Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee United, St Mirren, Hibernian, Motherwell, Dunfermline and others to make their voices heard.
Read issue 3 of CQN Magazine free online here or buy a print version at Magcloud.
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A while back I posted a few times about the future of the SPL without Rangers FC as a part of it. To avoid having to re-write what turned in to numerous essay length posts, I basically said that it would not be pretty.
I still believe that to be the case. I came to the conclusion that the best thing for Celtic, was for Rangers to exist and to provide the only reliable competition we have.
But – and it is a big but – what we have right now, is this a pretty situation? I’ve thought about it, and the truth, frankly, is no. (Don’t worry, I’m a woman, I’m allowed to change my mind on things.) I’m fed up with it. What we have is a poor league played on poor pitches with little to no investment possible.
If we – by which I mean the SPL, member clubs, media, and so on – allow a club who has cheated, who has squeezed other clubs out of success, cups, league positions, cash, to carry on as if nothing has changed, then it’s over. We have no SPL, we have a fix. A farce. As Paul pointed out in yesterday’s article, we have a system which incentivises illegal trading. We simply can’t have that, as a league and as a society, it would be outrageous. The league has been going downhill since the turn of the millennium, before then probably, and unless something changes, then why would we expect a different result? That’s insanity.
I’m left with the feeling that we continue down this path, scraping by, getting worse and worse, or we change. We say no more to the cheating, we let other clubs gain their rightful success, their rightful league position and their rightful cash, and we see what they can do with it.
As for the board, well this is a complicated situation. If they vote against Rangers NewCo, they are taking a risk, a big one. If they vote for more of the same, then as someone (sorry, forgotten who) pointed out yesterday, what has been the point of the financial strategy for the last however many years? We are meant to have been preparing for such an event, let us see if they’ve got the guts to see it through. But one thing is for sure. If they vote for Rangers NewCo, but at the same time continue down the financial prudence path, we will be done over time and time again. I don’t want us to cheat by financial doping, but the system they would have helped to create would leave us with no other option if we wished to be at all competitive.
On a cautionary note, I worry that the Celtic support see this equation as Rangers going bust and everything else being equal. It won’t be. We will have to downsize. More so than we have been. We will lose television money. We will have to let other clubs be competitive with us (by ‘let’ I do not mean standing aside while they take pot shots – even if that would appear to be our current defensive ploy – I mean we could not use our financial muscle to ‘buy’ the league every year with far better players than others could afford. Who wants to watch a league where the winners are only ever going to be one team, perhaps apart from Celtic fans?! We need other clubs to reach the same level as we do. The gap may not be as big as it once was, but no doubt it still exists).
Paul said yesterday “Whatever part of my club is dependent on Rangers I am willing to lose.” There was much agreement with this (and I have outlined my personal agreement as well). But when the reality of the situation sets in, will there still be people screaming at the board for downsizing? Because that is the reality.
rt rev david hay:
Well, see, that’s the point right there. No other club – INCLUDING US – would get away with it, so there’s absolutely no justification for allowing Rangers to. And that’s why EVERY football fan in the land should fight it.
I’m going to put something up for discussion. Let’s see what response it gets.
Rangers fans are being softened up for a moment which irrevocably alters their club’s place in the universe. NewCo Rangers would lose its entire history at the stroke of a pen. No more world record trophy haul. No European Cup Winners Cup. Do they realise that? If not, they should try and wrap their brains around it.
Some will ignore the objective fact, and hang on to the history nonetheless, as a lot of Airdrie fans do.
Here’s my question. How do we feel about OUR history?
Let me spin you one possible scenario here. Bear with me on this as it’s a bit of a left-field suggestion.
I have no way of knowing how much of our support is based in Scotland. How many of our season ticket holders are. But it can’t be more than half of Celtic Park, and of that number I’d say two thirds would follow the club no matter where, no matter what, within the confines of affordability.
We also have a huge untapped resource of fans in other parts of the world who can’t get to games.
Say NewCo Rangers is allowed to join the SPL. That could happen, with us as the sole voice of opposition.
Say the following day we handed in our three year notice to leave the Scottish Premier League. We sent representations to UEFA explaining why and made a formal request to the English league to join. We offered to start in the lowest rung of the professional ladder and to compensate financially whatever side we replaced by denying them promotion for a year. It would take a re-writing of the English rulebook, in the manner Rangers had benefited from re-writing the Scottish one except in one crucial respect – we would be asking for permission, offering financial renumeration to any club which was disadvantaged and thereby doing so in a just and fair way.
Furthermore, imagine that offer was rejected. The English rulebook states that the geographical boundary where the club plays has to be in either England or Wales. Okay.
So say towards the end of our notice period, some small club in England gets into financial trouble. We could either buy them out and assume their identity – losing our own – and forming NewCo Celtic, only in England, immediately putting in place the structures to build a STADIUM in that country, or we could wait until that club collapsed, apply for its license and do the same.
We would lose our entire history at the stroke of a pen. As Rangers would already have done.
Who would be satisfied and content with that arrangement?
Can someone ask Wayne Rooney auld man what the odds are on the Huns going under
The X factor has even managed to ruin The Omen movie theme.
TBB
Id take watching Celtic play Barnet and the like anyday over playing in Scotlands hun protection scam of a league.
James Forrest is Lennon
Awesome first post, sums up everything I feel about this. Hail! Hail!
Come on ffs, the Samaritans are staffed up to the nineties on double pay waiting on the switchboards lighting up.
These Sheriff officers aren’t what they used to be.
‘I have no way of knowing how much of our support is based in Scotland. How many of our season ticket holders are. But it can’t be more than half of Celtic Park’
-really?
Good grief.
Hi Paul,
Cracking couple of articles we should tell them round these parts we have two words for that pasaran & no.
DBBIA @ 13:30
“can decide whether tax fixing is worse than match fixing but in terms of Italian football Juve have a similar status and appeal as the Horribles have over here.”/i>
There is a legal site where a Lawyer gives his considered opinion – Well worth a read if you have 15 mins to read and digest
Here’s his take on Tax vs Fotballing Misdemeanour
“…………………….there is clear evidence of criminal activity by persons involved in the running of Rangers and administration of these schemes which will result in criminal prosecutions, then this allows a slightly stronger argument, but even then, I do not see any way in which previously won titles will be forfeited. If, as happened with Marseilles and Juventus, there was evidence of the teams conspiring directly to fix matches or results, or to suborn referees, as these can be shown to be directly affecting the outcome of games and are clearly against football’s rules, then such draconian action is justified. However, unless there is some rule in the rulebooks of the SPL, as regards the League, SFA as regards the Scottish Cup or Scottish League, as regards the League Cup, then the titles will not be forfeited.>/i>
BTW – Saw an article on Asprin – is there a difference if you take a soluble tablet daily? Just curious like.
James Forrest,
I agree with everything you say. I don’t think that’s what you said in the post I replied to earlier. However, I agree this kind of wrongdoing is killing football.
Mind you, Rangers are just the latest in a longish line. I simply want us to put animosity aside and consider where we go from here. Letting Rangers escape with a free pass is not something I advocate, but cutting off our nose to spite is the height of stupidity.
Not for the first time, it would be nice if we could actually be the big man. Let them scrap around and declare their dignity. Our dignity comes from how we behave. Again, I say, I’m glad of our board they keep some of us from ourselves.
A big tough rodeo cowboy goes to a tattooist & asks for an Indian complete head-dress on his back. The guy says he can, but it’ll take a couple of sessions. Halfway thru the 2nd visit, he asks if there is room for a Tomahawk too – tattooist replies, “aye, just let me finish this Turbin 1st…..”
Celtic_Cross says:
28 October, 2011 at 13:08
The Livingston No 1 and Craigshill Shamrock coexist as CSC’s and share the same bus. The Livingston No 1 is the oldest CSC in Livingston and they didn’t want to lose their identity but to everyone else it is the Craigshill Shamrock.
That is a small point about the CSC’s and may or may not be of interest.
Sean is a member of the Craigshill Shamrock and is a mate of mine. He is a mad Celtic supporter and a massive fan of Irish music and I’m missing his postings of Christy Moore already on Facebook. He has been sedated quite a bit since the accident but is now starting the long road to recovery. He has had various operations and still needs most of his teeth replaced. He had no insurance though and his family are not rich.
The fundraiser tonight has been set up by his mates and is NOT a Celtic night. It’s a race night and there will be childhood friends, family etc in attendance.
There is plans to have a fundraising Celtic v Rangers match in the next few weeks and this will be a fairly tasty affair and I reckon the Hoops will edge it due to it meaning more to our Bhoys.
Finally I have put wheels in motion today to organise a night with a member Fianna who has agreed to do the gig for free to raise more funds. This will give the local Celtic supporters a chance to raise more funds. The hospital bills and transportation back from France will probably run into thousands and everyone is trying to help in anyway they can.
Sean is overwhelmed with the support he has received. I think he is slightly humbled by it all. He received a message of support from Chris Sutton who was signing copies of his book in Livingston and his mates have written a song for him which is on Youtube.
Livingston is a small town and with Sean attending St Margarets and being an organiser of buses to various gigs he is very well known. He is a Celtic supporter who follows the team through thick and thin and he is respected by all supporters.
I will try and keep people up to date with any fundraising activities so they can attend.
many thanks for all the support over the past few weeks. It’s been tough for people close to Sean and everyone has taken strength from the support and Sean has fought through some very serious operations. He is not out of the woods yet. Keep him in your prayers.
God bless
LB
Dontbrattbakkinanger:
You not think so? How many fans travel every week from Ireland? How many travel up from England?
I have no way of knowing. Has there ever been a study to determine it?
TBB.great post and a very cunning but supportable plan. HH
James Forrest is Lennon
I would rather watch the REAL Celtic up here no matter the league we were in than follow our version of MK Dons in England.
Hail! Hail!
If the existing SPL clubs decide that they will readmit Rangers, purely on the basis that they will lose out on a couple of big attendances per season, then it should be made known that the supporters of Celtic will boycott ANY club who votes to reintroduce the NEWCO direct to the SPL. This boycott will last for a minimum of four years (which would be one more year the expected timeframe for NEWCO to come up through the leagues).
The benefit to the clubs of NEWCO being readmitted is nuetral. Its either them or us for at their ground, its their money or our money. NOT BOTH.
This threat then takes the majority of the financial decisions out of the equation. Yes TV monies will also play a factor, i accept that and i think this is something we are not in control of but the other issue we are.
This ultimatum should be issued to ALL SPL clubs by Celtic supporters (I am assuming of course that Celtic do the honourable thing here and vote against). Remember all we need is one club not to vote for it.
If the financial implications of NEWCO being in or out of the SPL are taken away, then I would be astonished if the chairmen of the clubs do not make the correct decision.
Most importantly, we will not be relying on the PLC board to push the issue, the fans are able to do this of our own accord.
DBBIA @ 13 30 ——
If the Juve thing proved anything it proved that corrupting football took a lot of personnel– Calciopoli involved football clubs, referees, Referee Supervisors, agents , various types of policemen, tax inspectors, TV producers, providers of expert in- studio analysis, journalists , big businessmen and the then Manager of the National team – Lippi . .
It also demonstrated that there was big money to made from losing [ non taxable !]
It wasn’t the relevant Football Authorities that busted Juve -it was the law of the land .
I very much doubt that The Hun have managed to corrupt Scottish football on their own— their accomplices will have been many and might well be found in the most surprising of places.
Warm and very grey -mosquito heaven -way down south.
‘the movie’s theme song Ave Satani, was composed by Jerry Goldsmith, for which he received the only Oscar of his long career. The score features a strong choral segment, with a foreboding Latin chant. The refrain to the chant is, “Sanguis bibimus, corpus edimus, tolle corpus Satani” (Latin, “We drink the blood, we eat the flesh, raise the body of Satan”), interspersed with cries of “Ave Satani’
crikey!
Time for an e-lite to settle the ole nerves.
No wonder ole Louis Walsh looks flustered , listenin’ to that ev’ry week.
Two men charged with a plot to kill Celtic manager Neil Lennon and other high profile supporters of the club will stand trial next year.
Trevor Muirhead, 43, and 42-year-old Neil McKenzie are alleged to have sent suspected parcel bombs to Mr Lennon, QC Paul McBride and ex-MSP Trish Godman. The packages are said to have contained a potentially deadly mixture of nails, an explosive substance or petrol.
Muirhead and McKenzie were back in the dock on Friday for another preliminary hearing at the High Court in Glasgow. McKenzie had recently instructed a new legal team including top QC Donald Findlay.
Victoria Young – who represented McKenzie – said defence inquiries were ongoing and would not be complete for the current trial due to start next month. Judge Lord Bracadale set a new trial date for February next year. It is expected the case will last up to three weeks.
The accused are alleged to have planned to “assault and murder” their three intended victims between March 1 and April 15 this year as part of a sectarian conspiracy. It is claimed that at two shops in Stevenston, Ayrshire – including a B & Q store – they bought nails, envelopes, travel bottles, digital sports watches and other items.
Muirhead and McKenzie are said to have acquired cream peroxide after inducing another man to buy it on behalf of Gemma Muirhead. The duo are then accused of posting a package to Neil Lennon at Celtic’s training HQ in Lennoxtown, East Dunbartonshire.
A plastic bottle with wires attached was said to have contained Triacetone Triperoxide, a plastic bag holding nails and a watch component. It is claimed Muirhead and McKenzie believed it to have been an improvised explosive device (IED) capable of causing “severe injury and death”.
Similar packages are alleged to have been sent to Mr Lennon’s friend Mr McBride at the Advocates’ Library in Parliament House, Edinburgh and to former politician Ms Godman at an address in Bridge of Weir, Renfrewshire.
The charge claims the pair sent another suspected bomb to the offices of Cairde Na hEireann (Friends of Ireland) in the Gallowgate, Glasgow. Muirhead and McKenzie face an alternative allegation contrary to the Explosive Substances Act of “unlawfully and maliciously conspiring” to endanger life or cause serious injury.
The pair face a separate allegation of dispatching an item on March 3 to Neil Lennon at Celtic Park with the intention of inducing him to believe that it would “explode or ignite”. All the accusations are said to have aggravated by religious prejudice.
Muirhead and McKenzie are further accused on May 9 in Kilwinning, Ayrshire of threatening to plant an IED outside a police station knowing the bomb allegations were being investigated.
They are then charged with attempting to defeat the ends of justice by disposing of a quantity of cream peroxide and wiring at a place in Ayrshire. Both men deny all the allegations they face.
James
When we had 50,000 season tickets we had approximately 8,000 of those registered with Irish addresses. England fewer than that.
emsh
Great wee post… I think I sympathise with most of that. I would only add that if we do the necessary evil and support Rangers, which I think is inevitable, it can still be on terms that suit us and demand that no club is allowed to cheat the system again.
Life does go on. Criminals are expected to be able to return to the straight and narrow. The death penalty was outlawed for a number of reasons.
Battered Bunnet:
thanks for the answer earlier. Haven’t had much time to read back today. Appreciated.
I’m still bemused by it.
How can Newco still own Iborcs?
It’s a farce.
The law is an ass
The Battered Bunnet ,
excellent idea and would be a great tactic but i doubt if our board would do this, none the less a great thought,
if this all comes to pass and they do only suffer points deduction and keeep their history and so on,
what will be true is that song we arra people will echo very loud as it will have been shown with out doubt that in scotland they are
indeed the people, and the rest are just lodging.
JF – there are some from NW England, and more from Ireland, especially Ulster, but I think the overwhelming majority at CP are local.
This is based on no more than the traditional way of establishing someone’s origins, listening to their accent.
South of Tunis- this week’s Bob Harris Country is a 50s special, right up your street if you can get it on the ole i-Player.
ASonOfDan:
Agreed and so would I. Our history is non-negotiable. I think we SHOULD apply for membership of the English League if the stitch up is allowed, and on the terms I suggested. But if we are refused, and UEFA backs that decision, and we have nowhere left to go then we would simply have to talk to European teams about a regional European League along the line The Battered Bunnet suggested.
BlantyreKev:
Thanks for that info. As I said, I am putting an idea out there, something to discuss. I’m certainly not in favour of it myself.
The Battered Bunnet says:
28 October, 2011 at 13:41
Hope you’re well. Really enjoyed your posts about the possible outcomes yesterday (I think), great work and very accurate that anything is still possible.
Some interesting points you raise. How do the SPL get the Euro place, I would’ve thought it would be SPL agreement with SFA, but the SFA have overall say (bearing in mind all clubs make up the SFA). So this would be a consideration.
I would 100% agree that there is options open to Celtic, however I’d need convincing our board would seriously threaten other clubs with any of the options you outlined.
There will be lobbying going on and the Huns might think they’ve secured the vote with their lobbying, however it ony takes one maverick to vote against (along with us). Surely our board can lobby at least one vote of support.
There is a number of very good moral, ethical and footballing reasons, identified and highlighted by many on here, for not allowing the huns straight back in. Our board should now be lobbying their peers in the SPL with these very good reasons. However in my opinion these reason will not be enough, therefore we may need to entice the clubs with some offers. Possibly more equal split of future TV revenues, share of european money, back to the old days of a split of the gate money, wage caps for Celtic, minimum number of Scottish players – ensuring the football in Scotland grows and there is a genuine chance for teams to challenge Celtic and eventually the new huns.
But for me, the biggest enticement will be the clubs in danger of relegation, a season of zero relegation could secure one teams future, this is where real hard lobbying must take place – remember IT ONLY TAKES ONE VOTE WITH OURS.
Will our board lobby? Paul67? It is now time for DD, PL and the board to step up to the mark and deliver the only option which is fair and equitable.
hh
bjmac
I’m with James Forrest.
Paul67 28 October, 2011 at 13:31:
“Honest Mistake, we can forget the paper value of the club. £4m over Whyte’s £18m is the fair value I estimated. The actual price will not be far removed from this. The administrator will not believe he can raise >£22m.”
Ibrox, Car Parks, Murray Park, all of the players under contract, the Rangers brand, the stationary in the cupboards, the room of tainted trophies and assorted tainted bricabrac sold seperately will not be worth more than £22million?
I can’t wait to see the explanation of the prepack then.
Davie Weir reckons St Johnstone job would be a feather in his Cap.
IMO – in whatever guise the Newco play on under everyone will still regard them as Oldco.
Meets the new huns, same as the old huns (albeit in a reduced manner)
Only if they are liquidated will they cease to exist.
No-one seems to mind that Leeds Utd (guilty of similar financial mismanagement/cheating) are owned by a different parent company. They are still called Leeds Utd in all areas that matter. Their history is still claimed by the new company.
I think it’s naive to think differently regardless of what we might prefer.
James Forrest is Lennon says:
28 October, 2011 at 13:51
I don’t think it would work. The reason I say this, is because before I got barred from FF, I noted quite a large number of them saying they wouldn’t follow NewCo. The history of the club is an important factor for many. The geographic thing is an issue too. Too many of our supporters are Scottish based, and feeling the squeeze as it is, unless we took over Carlisle I think the extra travel costs would kill it for a lot of people.
Going back to why Celtic can’t vote to keep NewCo in the SPL. I guess one of the factors in supporting Celtic is not just about what they believe in, but also what they don’t believe in (and what they have condemned). If they vote in NewCo, they’ll have switched from condemnation to not just acceptance but condoning. I can’t support that.
Just to repeat my view.
If Newco are soft landed back into the SPL, Celtic’s only course of action will be resignation.
If the club don’t do it voluntarily, then fan resistance will force their hand.
If a club supporter like me, i.e., not a board basher or agenda driven fan, feels this way, then you can be sure that there would be a fierce reaction from the support.
It is the quiet ones you have to beware of, not the tub-thumping rabble- rousers.
And to all those saying a compromise from Celtic is ‘inevitable’, no nothing is inevitable if we resist it.
James Forrest is Lennon says:
28 October, 2011 at 13:51
James,
They wont lose their history, perhaps in the official records books and even there I wont be surprised if there is just an asterix beside their name and a short expanation of the change at the bottom.
But they would still be called Rangers, the strip would be the same, they will keep the five stars, when they get to 60 leagues a sixth star will be added, press will talk of going for 4 in a row, and old time legends of the club will still be old time legends of the new club. It will be no different and there will hardly be a mention of the administration, life will go as before.
Our choice will be to either stand dumbfounded as they win the league, after a 10 point deduction, and have it hailed as the greatest acheivement in the history of the club or we walk away.
I cannot believe that Aberdeen for example would not seriously consider lending its support as the second club required to object to rankers being allowed to remain in or return immediately to the SPL. Perhaps we should be canvassing them.
That is of course if Celtic takes the initiative in this matter.
Sir Paul
jist in fae the jiggin’
Help Ma Boab, pal.
Ye hiv the awe the “Chicken Littles’ running wild..
People right and left.. Vowing that if such and such a thing is Allowed
and the G.A. are no punished severely.. and the Celtic Board vote fur
their Resurrection.. that’s the G.A. ,no Celtic’s
Then those Disappointed Celtic Supporters.. are vowing no tae Ever Go Back
tat Celtic Park!!
Hey. Ye couldnae mak it up!
Wit a Magilla ye hiv Started,pal.
Where wull it end?
And wit are ye predicating awe this Scenario Oan?
Ah am loast.. Ah guessed Ah came in at the wrang part of the Movie!
Frankly, Ah am bewildered.
Awe whit ye hiv written concerning the the Denouement of this G.A. Tax case…
Is Based oan Hypothesis, Supposition and Conjecture… ye must admit that.
Right?
“What Ifs”… Mak good copy.
But…
Ye are really only indulging in Speculation..
In My Opiniion.
Right?
Me.?
Well , Ah am quite willing tae wait see whit the ootcome of this upcoming
G.A. vs The I.R.S. confrontation finally evolves intae.
Afore Ah sound the Alarm.
Kojo.
Summa @ 1340
Thanks.
LiviBhoy @ 1357
Thanks for the update , will let my work colleague know.
I’m starting to wonder if the companies set up in England this week were used to bully other clubs/SPL into accepting their proposition.
“Allow rangers into the SPL or we’ll start at the bottom in England, see the administrator’s even set up the companies already in England ready to go.”