The Daily Record today report: “Record Sport understands Rangers would fight tooth and nail against any move to impose more than the statutory 10-point penalty” in the event “the Ibrox side have to start again under a new name”, presumably if the existing company ceases to exist.
If the Record are, in fact, reporting Rangers’ position accurately, this is the first salvo in their campaign to gain control of the consequences of a corporate failure.
The Record go on to say: “Clubs who can’t exit administration by a CVA must hand over their assets to a new entity and after shares [in the SPL]are transferred to a new company agreement has to be reached with the SPL over a return to the top flight”.
The glaring observations from this aspiration is, of course, that agreement does not have to be reached with the SPL over a return to the top flight, and that clubs who cannot exit administration by a CVA (Creditors Voluntary Agreement) must dispose of their assets to the benefit of the unsecured creditors.
The debate is framed by the newspaper to suggest a range of outcomes of between 10-25 points is possible for Rangers Newco FC to pick-up the SPL shares and league position of the existing Rangers FC, with a 25 point deduction being wholly unpalatable to the new company.
There must be absolutely no presumption that a newly formed company, who happen to own Ibrox, are entitled to parachute into the SPL ahead of the current Scottish Football League members, or ahead of an existing SPL team in a relegation spot. In the event of a club failure the league can and, if necessary, must complete the season with 11 teams only.
Scottish football cannot establish a system whereby an oligopoly can vote on a system which stiffs creditors and prejudices competitors outside of the oligopoly. Football across the world is trying to clean up its reputation, we cannot allow Scotland to become a laughing stock. Let your club know your feelings on how they should vote when the time comes. It’s time for fans of Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee United, St Mirren, Hibernian, Motherwell, Dunfermline and others to make their voices heard.
Read issue 3 of CQN Magazine free online here or buy a print version at Magcloud.
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bjmac says:
28 October, 2011 at 14:04
Would you vote to send Rangers down (if you had no allegiance Celtic) ?
Neil Lennon has been assaulted three times and has had bombs sent to him because he is a bit mouthy and has ginger hair.
Paul
You rightly say: ‘Let your club know your feelings on how they should vote when the time comes. It’s time for fans of Celtic, Aberdeen, Dundee United, St Mirren, Hibernian, Motherwell, Dunfermline and others to make their voices heard.’
Since it’s unlikely that a blizzard of individual pub conversations, e-mails to pals, calls to radio phone-ins and the like are likely to achieve the desired result (especially not in the short timescale there may in which to get this thing into motion), it would seem to follow that only by fans communicating with each other through already existing fan groupings can the necessary leverage be applied.
Do you think I am correct? And if so do you have any recommendations on how this might be best achieved?
FF
The Battered Bunnet says:
28 October, 2011 at 13:41
Thinking outside the box, well done some excellent ideas, like the idea of a Celtic league, well who wouldn’t.
I suppose St Mirren could veto any parachute arrangement and then invite offers for their own club.
Celtic_Cross says:
28 October, 2011 at 14:08
Not a problem mate. I’m sure he would have heard anyway.
I probably know the guy. I travel with that bus for away matches.
LB
It would be truly galling if the SPHell backed only 10 pt deduction. There would be no loss to them. 25 pts deduction and Huns still finish 3rd.
We must be in a position to sue other 10 if they take this route. Put them all on the brink.
James
I’d bet there are many fans in England who would start going to watch Celtic in England who aren’t regulars at the moment however,I would never want to see a newco Celtic.
Emsh
With regards the consequences we would face should the huns be tae bashed out the league,I think you are rolling over before the fight begins,thorough research I’m sure would surprise you.
RavenCelt says:
28 October, 2011 at 14:12
It would depend on what the alternative was. If it was self preservation, then of course I would. If it meant the club I owned (like DUtd or Dons) had a realistic chance of winning the league, due to restructure then yes.
I agree, if the only alternative is a loss of TV revenue & financial hardship for my club then the vote will go the way the huns require, if there is sensible and achievable incentives put in place for a league without the huns which would significantly improve Scottish football, coupled with strong lobbying of clubs, then there could be one that bites.
hh
bjmac
Not been on since this morning.
Have they pre-packed?
Have Celtic made a statement?
Does anyone here REALLY know what is going on at Ibrox?
REALLY?
I hope noone is falling out or giving each other a good slagging about something that has survived another D-day.
Back te work then.
Thanks for the comments guys. My posts were intended only to stimulate some alternative ideas. There are many more. Go find them.
Robert T – On the basis that someone needs to buy the assets or they will be completely lost, why not Newco? Provided they make the best offer, the creditors get the best deal available. That’s the principle. The practice in this case will be a little opaque though I think.
Must get some work done now…
bjmac
Saw your post at about 2:30 yesterday morning.
You are up far too late ma bhoy!
Hope you are well and everything’s going to plan!
Take care!
Lennon n Mc….Mjallby
I would welcome the surprise. Not giving a… for Rangers I’m genuinely contemplating the prospects for Celtic and wondering if we’ll ever see non-domestic success or credibility again. I have never thought that, not even during the 9.
Sure, it’s maybe their fault, but it’s still our problem.
I think we should relocate to Walsall. According to the weatherblink thingumajig advert, it’s 85F there today, and very sunny.
I still think Celtic and the other clubs need to go down the route of claiming the honours won when they were cheating.
It’s the only way to shame the unshameable.
Hit them where it hurts and remove their tainted titles.
Rip a star off their shirts at the same time. I can see a lot of Celtic fans walking away if they get off lightly with this. This is a massive period in the history of Scottish football. They have been cheating on the park for decades now they have been doing it off the park since Flo arrived. Where did that cash come from?
Strip them of their honours. If they rebrand at least they have the shame of losing around 30 or so trophies from their coffers.
They can’t get off lightly with this. I fear they will though. Celtic should employ that FC Sion owner. He never gives up!!! Will our board?
LB
You can see the Walsall stadium from the M6. Very handy.
TBB
Aye The Bescot Stadium would do us fine.
michaelC says:
28 October, 2011 at 13:59
Michael, the problem with doing that is how credible is the threat? I agree with the theory, but can we make it stick? In all honesty, if every club votes for Rangers, are we seriously saying that we’d be able to organise our entire support to boycott these grounds for four years? If we can’t seriously back up that threat, then it won’t work. Because say NewCo get back in, what’s the point in us boycotting now? They can’t change their decision, it’s too late. So they take their ‘punishment’ and we are also punished by not seeing our team, and our team is punished by not having the supporters back them. Again, I agree with you, but the problem is making it credible enough to the other clubs that they believe it will happen so they act accordingly. I don’t think they would, and I think they’d call our bluff.
BontyBhoy says:
28 October, 2011 at 14:01
BontyBhoy, thanks. To clarify, my position is for us to vote against them re-entering. I see nothing other than starting from the bottom of the third division as an appropriate punishment and deterrent to others. 10 points? 25 points? Nothing. Won’t even see them relegated, and is a one season irritation only, for what was a multi-year crime. What them starting from the bottom again means for us is not good either, and we shouldn’t be blind to this, but in a choice of two evils, that is my preference. I can see the dilemma the board would have, however, and don’t believe it’s as clear cut as some would like to believe.
JF 13:51
Yes 100% agree.
I’m disgusted but not surprised at the thought of them wriggling out of this and on their terms to boot.
I have long advocated a move to England.
Why not? Good God look at the facts – this isn’t our league it’s theirs. Not pleasant but true.
I would gladly start in the 9th / 10th tier as have Merthyr Town (according to Wiki) who happen to not be from England.
So don’t let anybody tell you it can’t be done.
I’ve said often enough that this would be a bold move. FFS Dermot – you must see the attraction in it.
Staying here is pure short term massaging of the balance sheet.
BontyBhoy says:
28 October, 2011 at 14:22
The huns would be back in the SPL within four seasons, normal service would be resumed, and the game would still have some integrity.
DBBIA ——–
Many thanks for the heads up re ole Whispering Bob ———— I will give it a go using a laptop that likes to pretend it lives in The UK —- Having a satellite internet provider helps..
So many great tunes could be given an airing ——- but —- I fear The Whisperer’s taste might not be the same as mine —- but hey -such is life.
I have spent a lot of my life scouring through mounds of second hand vinyl —– I stumbled across Porter Wagoner’s majestic —- The Bottom of The Bottle and a Lonesome Stardust Cowboy LP in a Palermo flea market recently — cue excitement -cue disappointment on learning that both had apparently been used as an ashtray before being used to clean a gravel drive- way —–
Life can be a Hun –way down south.
Any team news for tomorrow?
Or do we go with the same back four as Wednesday?
Paddy to start?
Kayal and Ki benched?
Hail, Hail, the Celts are here……………………
BigChipsUK – This is just the beginning… says:
28 October, 2011 at 12:55
I understand that SPL voting regulations require at least 11 of the 12 participants to be in favour in order to carry a motion. Were that motion intended to retain Rangers’ place in the SPL (albeit merely with a slightly different monicker), then surely at least Celtic and the team likely to be relegated would vote against?
I have a question and sorry if it has been posted before. The rules state that 11 of the 12 teams need to vote in favour in order to carry the motion. Surely thay would not be allowed to vote??? Does this mean that Celtic alone can then veto any motion?
Confusedcsc
Hail Hail
Lennon n Mc….Mjallby says:
28 October, 2011 at 14:17
How so? I think it would be a tough time for us (and others in the SPL). I think to say our game wouldn’t suffer from the loss of that money, that size of gate going to games, that Sky would have less interest and would want to re-negoiate to pay less (remembering that the difference in viewers when either Celtic or Rangers is involved, not to mention when they are playing each other is massive compared to other fixtures) is naive. Can other clubs even afford to lose this money? Would we lose more of our ‘top flight’ teams?
Like I said, I’d vote against, on the basis that to continue as is would be insane and also that they need to be punished and others deterred from that course of action. But it wouldn’t be easy.
Here’s a thought on voting and der hunfiddlers
A resolution in favour of the NEWBIGOT FC taking a licence would, under the current rules, require 11 of the current 12 clubs to say AYE READY to achieve assent (I believe the rule is phrased positively rather than negatively and there is no number expressed in the rule regarding dissent). Presumably at the point of liquidation and the ‘pre-pack’ scenario der currentbun is no more. They therefore cannot vote since they don’t exist. That means CFC do NOT need anyone else to veto this since, if we then voted AGAINST, only 10 of the current clubs could vote for. Such a resolution therefore couldn’t be passed without ALL 11 remaining members voting AYE READY.
Now that would put us on the spot since WE couldn’t squirm off the hook at all.
emsh says:
28 October, 2011 at 14:27
I see nothing other than starting from the bottom of the third division as an appropriate punishment and deterrent to others. 10 points? 25 points? Nothing. Won’t even see them relegated, and is a one season irritation only, for what was a multi-year crime.
Excellent point and one which Dundee United, Hearts and others will be watching closely.
Rangers get a 10 point deduction or similar and manouver their way out of this and get back to challenging for the title in a few years then the others will follow suit. Wait till they have amassed enough points to stay up and then go into administration.
Who then would be our great white hope? (Pun not intended)
Who is very well run?
Who has a very nice modern stadium?
Who has a new training ground?
Who has a nice balance sheet?
Who has underachived as a result of prudent spending?
The answer is our green brothers from auld reekie. Hearts are in a terrible position and Hibernian have watched as they themselves had to be saved by Tom Farmer and the smarmy Jambo’s have rubbed their faces in the misery of their last cup win being in 1902. Hibernian are the club the board would have little problem convincing not voting FC Rangers back into the league.
They have been run well and will not want to see clubs who have not been run well benefit from administration after throwing money at trophies when Hibs have led a sensible approach. They would also love to put Hearts down a few leagues and they detest Rangers as much as we do.
Hibernian’s chairman Rod Petrie would have to face the wrath of his own fans if he doesn’t vote against Rangers going down as their fans would be concerned that Hearts would follow this route and get off lightly.
Can Hibernian & Celtic get together and agree on this?
I think it’s our only hope to banish Rangers down at least one league.
Thoughts?
LB
The Battered Bunnet says:
28 October, 2011 at 14:21
”
Robert T – On the basis that someone needs to buy the assets or they will be completely lost, why not Newco? Provided they make the best offer, the creditors get the best deal available. That’s the principle. The practice in this case will be a little opaque though I think.”
There are rules introduced by a law change in 2009 (SIP 16) that stop it from being opaque. Add to this the number one screwed over creditor is HMRC who will put the deal under a ridiculous amount of scrutiny especially as the director has an interesting history. There has been suggestions of bills being run up to get a better deal for the charge holder. The administrator has a tough job and he will know that he will be watched closely.
Paul67 et al
If Celtic PLC were not so committed to a return to a ten team SPL they would be in a far better position than they are at present. The PLC view is that we have no alternative to that, despite the idea itself failing to achieve sufficient support when it was floated last time out. There is simply no way the Celtic PLC would vote against Rangers X, XY or XYZ. They have already made up their minds. I am on record as having stated, that if a bankrupt Rangers (and they are not there yet) are allowed to remain in the SPL, then we should look to reorganise Scottish football from the perspective of the Scottish Football League. See the Battered Bunnets earlier post for ideas that could be developed. For many clubs, the SPL, possibly the majority, the SPL is not the promised land, it is a busted flush. Let us be prepared, unlike our Board, to look beyond where we are now.
Emsh
If the Celtic support are seen to be actively organising a boycott and guaranteeing it will take place should the vote be negative I think one or two clubs and the sfa would thinly again,if they didn’t then the boycott still stands,there has to be a sanction although I think a season would do it.
Emsh
That is entirely correct, it has to be backed up. In this instance however, unlike past threatened boycotts, we are not talking about percieved injustices, (honest mistakes etc) what we are boycotting against is an undisputable injustice. If the support did not follow it through then quite simply we can have no complaints about other teams acting with self interest, and we would simply have to accept it.
If NEWCO were allowed back in, i would hope this would only strengthen the resolve of the support to ensure that the threat was carried out, and i honestly think that the anger amongst the funs would ensure it was.
If we as a support are not able to make some sacrifices to ensure fair play, why should we expect other clubs to.
Repeating what I said yesterday, but, in the event of such an appalling vista, the only hope of a 10-2 vote, is, in my opinion, Vladimir Romanov. The other owners, business-men to a man (and, no doubt, not unfamiliar with the full pretzel handshake), will NOT rock the Scottish Establishment. They’d be turkeys voting for Christmas if they did.
bournesouprecipe says:
28 October, 2011 at 14:05
“Davie Weir reckons St Johnstone job would be a feather in his Cap.”
that looked more like a great grandfaither in his cap
michaelC and Emsh
I have a feeling that if Newco were to get a shoo-in to the SPL, this talk of bhoycotts would be a waste of breath: since there will almost certainly be a massive drop in fans attending games, home or away.
FF
row z \o/ (O) Mississippi Burnin Nearer Home says:
28 October, 2011 at 14:36
We seem to have had the same thought at the same time, I might be missing something but surely they cannot vote, as you say they will no longer exist, leaving the Celtic board with the simple task of putting them down. Here’s hoping.
Sof Tunis – ole Whisperin’ Bob ticks most of the boxes in this show.
Ole Porter died today in 2007, of lung cancer.
The cold,hard facts of life right enough.
Emsh
On your reply to me.
The gate reciept,are you trying to tell me less fans would go to CP because they knew the huns weren’t in the league? Please.
As for Sky,well we thought we would have Setanta forever didn’t we? All things change and they don’t serve us all that great either,also,just because there’s no huns,there’s still a competition perhaps even more exciting than before.
I can’t accept we would be worse off altogether.
re Boycott
I’m unsure if this is the best option for Celtic, however I fully understand and appreciate it is one of the few options open to the fans to have a direct impact. Furthermore, I believe threatening something is far less effective than enticing someone with benefits. Bringing round to your train of thought, getting them to buy in to your vision of how the Scottish game could improve and them with it. They could be part of something new, something exciting, something which is morally and ethically correct, something that will change the Scottish game forever – in a positive way. However, I do accept that the fans can’t lobby the other clubs with this vision or ideas for a new beginning – only our board can do that – will they? Hmmmmmmmmm!
In addition, it shouldn’t be done quietly, a new vision should be promoted and publicised, how this could work, I’ll leave to far more intelligent people than me.
hh
bjmac
carrotnotstick.csc
lionsroar67
Would this be the same Victoria Young, Advocate in this Daily Record article of November 11, 2000?
STRANGE CASE OF A HEAVY BREATHER; Starring a QC, his ex-lover and a lady advocate who handles his briefs.
Byline: ANNA SMITH and BRIAN McCARTNEY EXCLUSIVE
TV REPORTER Paddy Christie was tormented by late night crank phone calls from a young female advocate who worked closely with her former lover Donald Findlay QC.
Victoria Young, 29, was charged with making nuisance calls – but Crown officials decided not to prosecute her.
Now furious Paddy has accused legal chiefs of a cover-up. She has reported the matter to the Dean of the Faculty of Advocates, who confirmed yesterday they were investigating.
She hit out: “BT and the police did a very good job and caught someone in the middle of a criminal act.
“Despite this the fiscal has tried to keep the whole thing confidential. He seems to be giving carte blanche to make malicious telephone calls.”
Scotland Today reporter Paddy – who had a five-year relationship with Findlay – said she feared she was being pursued by a Jill Dando-type stalker.
For over two years she lived in dread of the phone ringing late at night and only hearing heavy breathing.
When she finally called in police they tracked a call to the mobile phone of Young, one of the country’s brightest young advocates.
Young, the daughter of former Tory Minister Sir George Young, was interviewed on tape by police and admitted she making calls to Paddy.
But after a report to the Procurator Fiscal it was decided that there should be no criminal proceedings.
The procurator fiscal at Glasgow confirmed last night that the incident was dealt with by a “non court disposal”.
Senior depute fiscal David Green said: “I can confirm that Victoria Young was reported to this office for an alleged contravention of the Telecommunication Act 1984 Section 43 – which is effectively nuisance calls. The report against her was given careful consideration and after that consideration it was decided not to instigate proceedings.”
The depute fiscal would not comment as to why this particular case did not go to court when other similar cases result in criminal proceedings.
He also would not say whether Young was given a written warning or any kind of procurator fiscal fine.
The phone calls to Paddy, while she was still living with Findlay, were made after 6.30pm but sometimes as late as one in the morning.
Paddy said: “It took a few weeks to realise the calls weren’t wrong numbers and that someone was stalking me by phone.
“The caller never spoke but sometimes I could hear breathing.”
Asked if it was heavy breathing, Paddy replied: “I don’t know how loud Victoria Young’s normal breathing sounds but to me it sounded like heavy breathing.”
She added: “I got so fed up I contacted BT to see what they could do. The answer was nothing until I reported it to the police. At that stage I didn’t want to involve the police so I didn’t take any further action.
“I’m not comparing myself to Jill Dando, but I do appear on television and it was preying on my mind.
“I was going down the path in the morning looking up and down the street. So two months ago I finally decided that I would have to involve the police.
“Almost immediately a trace was put on my home phone number and within two weeks I’d taken a hoax call that was traced to Victoria Young’s mobile.
“That call was made some time after 11pm when I was fast asleep in my bed.”
When the police traced a second call to the same number a few days later, Young, of Dowanhill, Glasgow, was taken for interview to the city’s Maryhill police station where she admitted making pest calls.
She was charged but has escaped a court appearance.
Paddy said: “I was flabbergasted when I found out. I’ve spoken to some of her legal colleagues who say they don’t know how she could be so incredibly stupid.”
News of Young’s involvement has stunned the Scottish legal establishment.
Yesterday one leading solicitor said: “Victoria is very bright and extremely ambitious. This is a real shock.”
From her highly privileged background, privately-educated Young went on to Glasgow Uni where she graduated in 1993.
Her early legal training was with Brodies law firm in Edinburgh, but she quickly set her sights on higher legal circles.
Regarded as keen and meticulous, Young was spotted by Findlay – the high-profile, controversial criminal lawyer respected across the establishment.
As one of the highest-paid and most sought-after QCs, working with Findlay was considered an honour among the younger advocates eager to make a name for themselves. But more often than not, it was Young who worked closely with him on a number of high-profile cases.
It was during the highly emotional murder trial at the High Court in Glasgow of Kim Galbraith – accused of shooting her policeman husband – that news of Findlay’s split with Paddy hit the headlines. When the Record published the story of the break-up, a furious Young leapt to his defence in the foyer of the courthouse.
In an astonishing scene she accosted Daily Record chief reporter Anna Smith, claiming we were “jeopardising” a young woman’s life by publishing a story about Findlay.
Later she passed a handwritten letter to the Record saying what an honour and privilege it was to work with Donald Findlay, who she said she deeply admired as a lawyer.
Last June, Young stood by Findlay when Rangers threw him out as vice-chairman – after he was caught on camera singing bigoted songs at a supporters’ night out.
Young continued to be at his side, though it is understood Findlay remained good friends with former lover Paddy.
A legal insider yesterday described Young as a “loner” who had few interests outside of her work and career.
The insider said: “Victoria has a pony and is a keen horse rider, but apart from that she doesn’t seem to do very much.
“She was very close to Findlay and the two worked together on a lot of cases. Victoria is the kind of person who could seem snobbish and stand-offish when people first meet her, but in reality she is a very likeable girl.
“She is from a very privileged background and is ambitious. She saw herself as going all the way to the top. But she is quite a lonely person really.
“She would see someone like Findlay as a hugely charismatic, clever figure and perhaps even a father figure.”
Yesterday Young was dropped off at her home by Findlay in his MG sports car.
They kissed for a few moments before she stepped into the street.
Findlay roared off and Young walked quickly into the red sandstone building where she lives in the top flat.
Last night Young told the Record she meant “no malice” in the calls and claimed she had only made two.
She insisted that despite Paddy’s high profile, she had no idea who she was because she was not allowed to watch ITV as she grew up.
And Young added that she was shocked to find that Paddy had reported the matter to the Dean of the Faculty of Advocates, saying she feared she had a stalker. Young said: “That is just delusions of grandeur.”
Meanwhile, back at the Ranch..
The G.A. are leading us by.. Ten Points..
Motherwell, are Second.
We are Third, in the League.
We must win EVERY SINGLE GAME FAE NOO OAN.. if..
We expect tae Gie the G.A. a run fur the Money!
Noo.. awe that Ah hiv written is cold ,Hard tae Tak… FACTS!
Yes, Virginia… Celtic, are no doing too weel..
Howevahh.. In Spite of awe the Daunting Predictions as to the Financial Health of
oor Rivals…which couldl lead to their ultimate Demise..
Those Dire Predictions,concerning the Future Well Being of the G.A…. dae nothing tae Help us Acheive either League or European
Success..
Me.. ?
Ah am only concerned aboot how the Celtic are Faring..
Right Noo. at this Time..
I don’t Give a Tinker’s Curse, whit happens tae oor Rivals.
They kin go oot o’ Business… or..No Go Oot o’ Business.
Ah dinnae care.
Ah only care aboot the Celtic.
Am Ah the only Guy oan here who Thinks like This?
and ye know something?
Ah believe that Ah am!
Kojo.