Tannadice the scene for Cup quarter final

877

On Saturday my mind wandered, as it does, to the demise of Gretna in 2008.  The village team were bankrolled through the Scottish league system until promotion to the SPL in 2007 but then the cash ran out.  The club went into liquidation a few weeks from the end of the season but while most of the first team squad were made redundant, a few remained on a week-to-week basis to see out the remaining league programme, assisted considerably by the SPL and Livingston FC, who made their ground available.

Should Rangers fail around the same time, I thought, how apt it would be for us to meet them in the Scottish Cup final.  We would be there at the end to wave goodbye to a unique institution.  Witnesses to the final whistle on a club with an enormously controversial history.

Unfortunately, my hopes were dashed by Dundee United at Ibrox yesterday, who Flushed Away the opposition and won their first game against an SPL team in 2012.  We will have to scramble for tickets for the prospective event at another venue.

United seem set to try their hardest to spoil my enjoyment of the Cup.  Our quarter final draw against them next month will be one of the toughest games of the season.

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  1. James Forrest

     

     

    In the main, I enjoy your posts.

     

     

    In answer to your most recent post, there is as much chance of me paying their big tax bill as there is CW paying it, in the event the FTT finds against them.

     

     

    hh

     

     

    bjmac

  2. James Forrest

     

     

    You maybe correct on that point but with that track record whyte has I doubt it.

     

     

    Would you honestly pay millions to the taxman out yer own money knowing fine well you can put club in to liquidation debt free.

  3. BOBBY MURDOCH'S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS on

    Kello: Get me out of here Neil By JOHN SHIELDS

     

     

    Published: Today

     

    Add a comment AXED Hearts keeper Marian Kello wants Celtic to end his Tynecastle hell.

     

    Kello was dropped by Jambos manager Paulo Sergio for the 1-1 Scottish Cup draw with St Johnstone on the orders of controversial Jambos owner Vladimir Romanov.

     

     

    The Slovakian shot- stopper enraged Romanov by snubbing a £100,000 switch to Austria Vienna.

     

     

    Kello, 29, won’t be recalled for tomorrow’s rearranged SPL clash with Celts at Tynecastle.

     

     

    But he reckons there could be a future for him at Parkhead, as SunSport revealed on Christmas Eve.

     

     

    Kello said: “The interest from Celtic was real.

     

     

    “They did not make a concrete offer so I decided to stay a Hearts player for now.

     

     

    “But I’m not going to negotiate a new contract. I’m leaving on June 30.

     

     

    “I will wait for offers and I am open to different possibilities.

     

     

    “At the end of the transfer window, Austria Vienna showed interest in me. But it ended up not being a successful transfer as it was a last-minute proposal. I decided not to go for certain reasons.

     

     

    “My contract ends in the summer and I will decide what to do then. I got into trouble with Hearts for not completing the move to Vienna.”

     

     

    Celts could lose No1 Fraser Forster back to Newcastle when his loan deal finishes in May.

     

     

    Back-up keeper Lukasz Zaluska has yet to extend his contract.

     

     

    Kello, who watched the Cup clash with Saints from the stand, added: “Hearts is for sale, the owner’s made that clear.

     

     

    “The salary gets paid only after a delay. It is a difficult situation.”

     

     

    Hearts director Sergejus Fedotovas explained the decision to axe Kello. Jamie MacDonald, who was in goal against Saints, and Mark Ridgers have both penned new deals with Jambos.

     

     

    Fedotovas said: “We have keepers that have extended their contracts with the club and some who are negotiating contracts with other clubs.

     

     

    “That makes an impact when you consider who is going to play.”

     

     

    Hearts will host St Mirren or Ross County if they beat St Johnstone in their February 14 replay.

     

     

     

     

    Read more: http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/sport/spl/4112669/Kello-Get-me-out-of-here-Neil.html#ixzz1lek4GzwM

  4. Sorry James it’s not his money he’s using, my nuts fried with all of this.

     

     

    If that is his plan then he will be hailed a genius and fair play to him cos no one seen that coming.

  5. Someone mentioned about a second share issue on the dark side…

     

    Won’t happen. There is no culture or history of giving over there…only taking and the belief that they “are the peepul”.

     

    They don’t have a clue about coming together for the greater good, why would they, having been spoon fed superior by birth nonsense all their lives?

     

    The future is bright.

     

    The future is Green.

     

    HH

  6. RalphWaldoEllison-is Neil Lennon Season 2011-12 on

    My humble opinion.

     

     

    Whyte has never to date shown any signs of being smart. He is a chancer. We were all puzzled as to where his money to pay off LTSB came from. Who was the money behind him we asked. Now we know – he is the money or rather – he bought RFC for a pound and used the season book advance from Ticketus to pay off LTSB. He got Ticketus to shove the 18m in an escrow account so that LTSB could see that he had the cash and was serious. LTSB pressured Chairman Johnson into not turning down the Whyte bid, because they just wanted out and would have taken money from anyone to be shot of their involvement with RFC. They only inherited the RFC headache because of the demise of HBOS.

     

     

    The Independent Board appeared out of the mist at the time of the sale by DM, because they clearly didn’t trust him or LTSB or Whyte. The integrity that this group tried to show at this time was laughable. Where were they when Chairman Murray was selling off the Merchandising to JJB, the catering to whoever and, as we now know, mortgaging future season book sales with Ticketus. They were taking their fat paychecks through the Employee Benefit Trust and saying absolutely nothing. We know from Phil Mac that Martin Bain and other senior managers were all enrolled in the EBT. They have all just been sticking their snouts in the trough fed by the HBOS credit line and the unwary fans.

     

     

    Paul Murray, Johnson, and others all now seem to have discovered a convenient conscience and morality that was significantly absent under the profligate Murray years. Hugh Adams was right when he said in 2002 that RFC were running at a loss and it would end up with them going bust. Whyte confirned that with his naive statement in response to the DR stuff. He said “we are spending 45m a year and earning 35m a year”. The previous chairman knew that, the previous board knew that, LTSB knew that and the new buyer knew that. Even Walter Smith knew that – that’s why he couldn’t spend any more big bucks on players once LTSB got a handle on the real state of affairs.

     

     

    There is a pro RFC lobby around that is trying to plant the ideas that “Scotland needs RFC” etc etc. Those who are behind it seek only to create enough light to allow them to salvage something viable from the wreckage of the current business at Edmiston Drive.

     

     

    For this to happen,

     

    1. THEY will have to have the big tax bill set aside or have ot paid by the very people (US) who are demanding that they pay up.

     

    2. The SFA/SPL cabals will have to conduct some secret deals in dark rooms and allow them into the game at a fairly high level “to save Scottish football”.

     

    3. The clubs will have to be persuaded to accept the devil’s deal or go under themselves.

     

    4. Sky will threaten to pull out of the TV deal, since the d=terms would have been materially altered by the SPL, voiding the contractual arrangements.

     

    5. The media will lobby against the demise of RFC and that campaign has already started…

     

     

    They are fighting for their very lives in this, and there is still along way to go. I await the singing of the fat lady nonetheless.

     

    =================================================================================

     

    Now about the Jambos on Wednesday, Lets nail their sorry hides to the wall, and get the gap back to four points.

     

     

    Also our next game on Feb 11 is at home to ICT. Butcher will have them wound up to face us, so this will also be a tough one. Eye on the ball Celtic.

     

     

    HH

     

    RWE CSC

  7. Margaret McGill on

    Hi guys

     

     

    I apologize if this has been posted before,however, let me suggest in the most erudite, sophisticated

     

    and meaningful way, to the tune of Mary Hopkins “Those were the days my friends” my feelings tonight:

     

     

    Die Die Die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die

     

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    Die Die Die die die Die ya huns

     

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    Die Die Die die die Die ya huns

     

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    Die Die Die die die Die ya huns

     

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    Die Die Die Die

     

    Die Die Die die die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die

     

    Die Die Die die die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die

     

    Die Die Die die die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die ya huns

     

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    Die Die Die Die

     

    Die Die Die die die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die ya huns

     

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    Die Die Die Die

     

    Die Die Die die die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die ya huns

     

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    Die Die Die Die

     

    Die Die Die die die Die ya huns

     

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    Die Die Die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die

     

    Die Die Die die die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die ya huns

     

    Die Die Die Die

     

    Die Die Die die die Die ya huns

     

     

     

     

    ….or words to that effect…

  8. Maggie….

     

     

    Tony Hatch or Micky Most would, I am sure, have applauded your subliminal New Faces ditty….

     

     

    Reminds me of Humour Past… But the Present?

     

     

    Keeps me thinking how much yon Foreign Secretary Billy Hague sounds just like The Mammonish Craig Whyte (White)…..

     

     

    Just saying like….

     

     

    The Cry Was No Baaaahhhh

     

    No Baaaaaahhhhhh

     

    Until you Dye.

     

    Dye Dye Dye…

     

    etc….

     

     

    Interesting Tims indeed….

  9. The tv programme last night contained no surprises for us although well done for showing the evidence to prove the point. CW is being hurried out the door, they’re end game is taking shape.

     

     

    Is the hertz game on the tv tomorrow, what Chanel ?

     

     

    V

  10. .

     

     

    G’Day VHman..

     

     

    Just watched the HalfTime fun @ Unversneckie.. Don’t think I could Sing for that Long never Mind Jump up and Down.. Great Stuff..

     

     

    Agree Re; The Wide O:0(

     

     

    I might need New Glasses just to Read CQN..

     

     

    Summa

  11. Top of the morning to you all from a still-dark and freezing Fife.

     

     

    Of the many questions that Rangers’ current predicament has thrown up I can usually come up with one or two probable answers that can satisfy me.

     

     

    Some of my theories only last a day or two and then I change my mind and revert from, say:

     

     

    Being convinced that Whyte is a sly, shrewd operator; to him being a bumbling, hapless, patsy being used by others.

     

     

    But there is one aspect of the whole debacle that I cannot get my head round, and defies reasonable speculation.

     

     

    The great imponderable! Why did the wig leave his well-paid gig?

     

     

    Answers anyone?

  12. If they need to set up a Newco is there not one already going? That is the supposedly independent business which runs the youth development side of things at Murray park. And it probably has rangers in it’s name. We need our CQN sleuths on this one. Find out it’s status and who are it’s office bearers etc,

  13. saltires en sevilla on

    Good morning fellow Celts from the 06:31 to Waterloo

     

    Freezer stocked space in fridge for setting bowl…Prosecco chilling nicely

     

     

    lovely

     

     

    HH

     

     

    M

  14. Good morning friends from a dry but very cold and frosty East Kilbride. Winscreen scrapers at the ready.

     

     

    Jobo

  15. Craig Whyte must be cursing his luck, all of a sudden Scotland has found investigative journalists, I bet if he bought a duck it’d drown.

     

     

    You know something, I’m with Paul67 and I’m hoping Craig Whyte just gets an even break, you’ve got to love him.

  16. tomtheleedstim on

    Good news for the Huns at last, Whyte has definitely got billions.

     

    Apparently he will soon be looking at making a move for Bail.

  17. saltires en sevilla on

    Good morning fellow Celts from 06:31 to Waterloo

     

     

    Ice-cream and jelly in stock at all good outlets

     

     

    HH

     

     

    M

  18. twists n turns on

    murdochbhoy

     

     

    There is more to this sudden change of approach by the BBC and the Record than meets the eye. This sudden discovery of a backbone? No chance. Is their concern that an unscrupulous businessman has infiltrated the Scottish game? Is it hell as like. They had that for years in the shape of Murray. It was perhaps understandable that they didn’t go after Murray when he was in control. They were afraid to create a rift in that particular relationship. They neglected their duties for no more than the fact they had a cosy relationship. Even before he sold up, it was acknowledged everywhere that the tax debts were potentially colossal. Where were the concerned press then? They were still doing a masterful impression of Mizaru, Shizaru and Kikazaru apparently oblivious to all that was going on around them.

     

     

    There were big stories out there. As the hun train careered headlong towards the oncoming HMRC express, heads remained buried in the sand. Perhaps they were too busy petitioning for anti sectarian legislation to protect the criminal and life threatening behaviour that prominent Celtic and Catholic citizens were being subjected to? Well almost. They were actually preparing reams worth of “whataboutery” documentation in an attempt to widen an anti – Catholic terror campaign and label it an “old firm” or “Scotland’s problem” issue. In addition don’t forget the very clear anti Celtic stance adopted when we sought fairness from the MIB. BBC and press went the extra mile to back the ridiculous referee strike action, and made it perfectly clear where they stood on that matter citing Celtic as the problem.

     

     

    When it became clear Murray was selling to Whyte, the “MBB” phrase was launched. They had a new horse to back. A new man in charge and again, professionalism and integrity were abandoned as the spoke of the front loaded treasure chest. Debts would be cleared, a rebuild was on the cards, and timmy would be put in his place.

     

     

    It is from this point something happened. A realisation that Whyte was a rather shady character, whose wealth was perhaps not as it had seemed. The realisation that their beloved Rangers were in trouble. That this mess was real. The taxman may have been on a journey full of delays, but he was now closing in on his target. Administration. Liquidation. The smell of fear was tangible. Where to turn to? Whom to turn to? I am convinced that Murray is pulling the strings again, perhaps from a distance, but pulling them nevertheless. Also climbing back into bed with the BBC and the press are the likes of Dave King, and a bunch of ex directors who aleready failed their supporters and contributed to the mess that Whyte inherited.

     

     

    Isn’t it absolutely astonishing that not one, not a single one, has chosen to write on the morality issues, the fairness isue, the need for appropriate punishment to Rangers FC should the tax case be lost? No. Before that result is even known, the campaign is centered around finding the path of least resistance back into the top tier.

     

     

    The only issue I can’t quite fathom for now is the Sun position in all of this. From nodding dogs on all things Rangers in the past, to dog eat dog now. Perhaps they are simply peeved that the Record and BBC seem to be the chosen media outlet for the breaking news. I would expect the Sun to produce something very soon in an attempt to seize market share.

     

     

    Make no mistake. Any actions being taken by the media and press now have the same agenda as some of the ones I have mentioned. It is ALWAYS done with a view to keeping their beloved Rangers not only in business, even if that means abandoning the principles of justice and fairness, but t the very top of that business, which means by default, they have timmy where they want him.

     

     

    If it looks like a bigotted sectarian scumbag, and has historically behaved like a sectarian scumbag…………..

  19. Another investigative journalist at the Record . . .

     

     

    Rangers chief Craig Whyte in bizarre link-up with English minnows Banstead Athletic.. average crowd 30

     

     

    Feb 7 2012 Exclusive by Mark McGivern

     

     

    EMBATTLED Rangers chief Craig Whyte is supporting a new club… English non-league minnows Banstead Athletic.

     

     

    The bizarre tie-up was confirmed by one of their sponsors – a long-standing business associate of the Ibrox supremo.

     

     

    Aidan Earley claimed Whyte hoped to groom future stars through Banstead, who play in front of crowds of around 30 in the Combined Counties Premiership in Surrey.

     

     

    Venture capitalist Earley – who was bankrupted at the age of 22 – said: “The context in which you refer to me is a possible involvement of Rangers with Banstead Athletic Football Club.

     

     

    “This is a project for developing young talent and has been two years in the making.”

     

     

    Earley, 44, and his brother Wulstan, 49, are involved with various firms operating under the Regenesis name – one of whom act as Banstead’s shirt sponsor.

     

     

    Whyte supported Banstead’s plans for a £3million scheme to buy their ground from the council. The deal, brokered by Aidan Earley, involves raising funds by floating the club on the stock market.

     

     

    Despite being based more than 400 miles away, Whyte personally sent Reigate and Banstead Council a letter backing his friend’s development plans, admitting his hope to tap into a future talent pool.

     

     

    Earley referred us to his barrister, David Simpson, who said: “The fact that Rangers are interested in this project is a source of immense satisfaction.

     

     

    “Indeed, your readers might find the truth heart-warming. Although Rangers are committed to their Scottish youth academy, their interest in the project is derived from their intention of positioning themselves to benefit from the talent developed south of the border.

     

     

    “This is a positive development for the prospects of home-grown talent and the exposure of Rangers to that.”

     

     

    Earley denied Rangers had provided any funds, while the SPL giants refused to discuss whether they were involved with Banstead.

     

     

    But Banstead Council’s Kathy O’Leary said: “I have no knowledge of Craig Whyte’s money being involved with the redevelopment but I can confirm he wrote to us to express his support.”

     

     

    Banstead chairman and owner Terry Molloy claimed he knew nothing of Whyte’s involvement. He added of Aidan Earley: “We are just a small club and Aidan is a small part of it.”

     

     

    The Earley brothers are friends of Whyte and have been co-directors in some business ventures. Aidan and Wulstan are brothers of Brendan Earley, who died recently.

     

     

    He was Whyte’s right-hand man with Vital Holdings. It was dealings under the Vital Holdings banner that led to Whyte being banned as a director for seven years in 2000.

     

     

    Rangers have been embroiled in a cash crisis and on ongoing case with the taxman could cost them £49million and send them into administration. Last night, an Ibrox source told us: “Nobody here has heard of Banstead Athletic, and that includes Ally McCoist.

     

     

    “People are scratching their heads about the sense in getting involved with a backwater team. If Rangers want to invest in youth, they have their own academy.

     

     

    “If they want some kind of exchange set-up, would it not be better to get into a relationship with Real Madrid or AC Milan than Banstead Athletic?”

     

     

    ———————————

  20. twists n turns says:

     

    7 February, 2012 at 07:43

     

     

    I think you may have misconstrued my light hearted comments on Whtye. Murray knew exactly what he was doing when he passed responsibility for Rangers to Whyte. Whyte was the patsy.

     

     

    Murray is a shrewd operator and it isn’t by sheer chance that he’d written confidentiality for himself into the contract he has with Whyte. No, I’m with you 100%, Murray, I believe is still the puppet master and I remain to be convinced that Whyte is anything more than a temporary custodian.

     

     

    However, my hope is that Whyte may yet blow the whole choreographed show out of the water

  21. for the benefit of James Traynor, Hugh Keevins, Mark Guidi & Chick Young

     

    “Succulent Lamb” Explained

     

    Many visitors to this site who are not obsessed by Scottish football have cause to ask what we mean when we talk about ‘succulent lamb’. It is not something that is easily guessed at from context, so true to form, I thought an overly detailed, but complete, explanation was in order.

     

    The phrase refers to a description of the food served to James Traynor of the Daily Record (a Scottish tabloid) by former Rangers owner, Sir David Murray. In one of the most obsequious pieces of ‘sucking-up’ ever penned in the long history of prostrate journalism in Scottish football, Traynor celebrates the food choices of his host for the evening.

     

    The phrase ‘succulent lamb’ has come to mean benefits accruing to journalists who write flattering and uncritical articles about Rangers FC and its owner. Such benefits have more typically included priority access to Rangers’ news, but have included private jet trips to Murray’s chateau in France to sample the output of his vineyard. The original Traynor article is reproduced below. The most offensive paragraph has been put in bold for emphasis: Daily Record – November 19, 1998 SECRET FEAR THAT DRIVES ME TO WIN 10 IN A ROW: Rangers chairman David Murray opens up on the highs and lows of his decade in charge of Rangers and promises that the best is still to come Exclusive James Traynor RANGERS owner David Murray doesn’t often allow his true feelings to surface, but currently he is finding it difficult to disguise a pain which has been gnawing away inside since the end of last season. After a period of almost total dominance of Scottish football during which Rangers racked up 17 trophies the club met with failure. Celtic won the championship and the League Cup and Hearts beat Rangers in the Tennents Scottish Cup final, leaving Murray with nothing to show for a massive investment in time and money. Even now he winces when he thinks of that season, but it is the vivid memory, and the pain of defeat with which he now suffers, that combine to drive him on. Last night as he looked back on a decade as Rangers’ owner – come this Sunday, the 22nd, it will be 10 years since he paid Lawrence Marlborough £6 million for the club – Murray’s desire to avoid the miseries of another barren season could not be disputed. To hear him speak was to listen to a man who believes himself to be charged with some kind of great and mighty mission. Murray, who chose to talk only to the Record about his dreams and ambitions for Rangers, said: “No one should doubt that Rangers are the biggest club in the country, but I know that talk is cheap in this business and that we will have to prove just how big we are. “That doesn’t really bother me because as long as I am able to influence this club we will be the biggest and we will be the best. “I have spent 10 years of my life, and I know that sometimes I gave up too much of myself to Rangers, but I am not about to give up now. “Neither am I willing to stand aside and allow another club to overtake Rangers. The failure of last season hurt me a lot and that pain was something I didn’t need nor want. “It is also a pain which I never want to suffer again, but by God that sort of thing just makes me even more determined to succeed. I am still as driven, still as enthusiastic and I will welcome the challenge of anyone out there.”

     

    Murray was referring not only to the Kenny Dalglish/Jim Kerr consortium who are stalking Celtic, but also the as yet uncovered groups who are bound to make bids to buy out Fergus McCann. If the past 10 years have taught Murray, who is one of Britain’s wealthiest individuals, anything it is how to win and he believes Rangers will continue to grow and prosper. “I look upon these last 10 years as a having been a great era, but it is over and Rangers are about to head on into a new era,” he said over a glass of the finest red. He was about to take in another mouthful of the most succulent lamb – anyone who knows Murray shouldn’t be surprised to learn he is a full-blooded, unashamed red meat eater – when he put down his knife and fork. It was like a statement of intent and looking directly across the table to make sure I hadn’t yet succumbed to the wine, he said: “Bring on the next 10 years, there’s more to come for Rangers. “Understand that I care passionately about what I’m doing with Rangers and believe that in 10 years time we will still be setting the pace. “Too many of us have put too much into this club and we won’t let someone come along and take it all away. “What I’m saying here is that no matter who buys Celtic from Fergus, they will need to have the deepest of pockets imaginable. “The fresh challenge would be good for the Scottish game and lift the profile, but Celtic’s new owners had better be prepared to spend. “In the past, Celtic’s people maybe just haven’t fancied trying to take Rangers on financially, but if I have to go in deeper to keep my club up there then I will. I have done it too many times to be frightened now.” From anyone else such talk could be dismissed as no more than empty rhetoric, but with Murray you just feel it is more than bluster and besides, he does have a track record as a spender. There have been times in his 10 years when he has taken Rangers somewhere between £15m and £20m into debt and he knows that if this season goes belly up like the last one he could be looking at a potential debt of £20m. However, having taken the value of Rangers from £6m to approximately £186m in 10 years he knows how far he can gamble in pursuit of success. This season alone he has allowed his new manager Dick Advocaat to spend almost £30m, but he refuses to lose any sleep over it. He said: “I don’t because I consider spending as much as £5million on someone like Andrei Kanchelskis as a necessity. If a club like ours doesn’t do that then we fall by the wayside. “Look, I have many other businesses so I could find many other things to worry about, but I love sport and I want Rangers to be successful. I know this won’t be accepted by some people but this isn’t about making money. “£56m has been invested in the stadium and in my time £200m has been turned over and after interest our trading profit is minimal. Perhaps as much as £60m has been spent on players and I have even paid in about £1m in hospitality but never taken a salary from the place. “I get six complimentary tickets the same as everyone else and if I want extra I have to pay for them the same as everyone else.

     

    “There are no free lunches for David Murray at Ibrox and I have never taken part or been at the centre of any of the numerous victory celebrations we have had.” Murray disappears to celebrate success with a small group of close friends, leaving the roar of the crowd to wash over the players and management. “Supporters don’t want chairmen hanging around, even though they look to people like me to provide some kind of direction and the new ways to keep moving the club on,” he said. “I hope I can say that in my 10 years so far I’ve been fairly good at that, but the day I run out of ideas is the day I’ll know it’s over. I’m sure someone will tell me because I have good people around me, I always have. “But I’m not ready yet to step back and I see enough fresh challenges, staying ahead at home and winning a place at the European table, ahead in the next 10 years to keep my own adrenaline flowing.” He knows roughly how much it will cost him and he’s heard the rumours that ENIC, who have invested £40m in Rangers, are uneasy at the club’s spending policies but Murray claims these backers have always been supportive of his methods. He said: “They could kick up a fuss but they don’t. Besides, I am the owner of the club and so far most people seem to like what I’ve done.”

  22. please take pauls advice and share my explanation with the Mainstream Scottish Media who are still a bit behind in their knowledge