I know what you were thinking; Zenden, like Ljungberg, but older. We need experience in the squad but with Commons, Ledley, Samaras and McCourt all able to stake a claim for the left midfield position this is the last place we need to bring in a 35-year-old. Best of luck to the player but I’m pleased he has left Glasgow.
Today’s Sun report that a senior policeman witnessed a crime being committed but instead of doing what he is paid to do, he reported the incident to Uefa. You have to wonder about the veracity of the crime. The officer will do well to explain his actions if they amount to anything more than a few lines in a newspaper.
We are all partisan in this city but Justice is blind to such emotions and taxpayers (that’s you and me) do not sponsor lazy gossips.
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Can someone explain something to me please.
With regards the phrase ‘Orange Bastard’. (excuse the expletive Paul67 but my point is mute without the actual phrase being put down for all to read).
The Orange order is exclusively Protestant organisation which exists solely due to its members hatred of Papists.
Can calling someone a bastard because of their bigotry and hate of others religious beliefs be sectarian?
With reference to the use of this phrase in a song sung towards Walter Smith. In the context of words spoken by Walter Smith – “There is a Protestant superiority syndrome around this club. You can feel it.” as reported by Graham Spiers it is understandable how some could hold the belief that this reflects a belief structure nourished and educated from an Orange Order education or upbringing.
So rightly or wrongly if someone or a group of people sang a song that referred to Walter Smith as an Orange Bastard there could easily be a case put that calling him this could be attributed to the above statement made by him. A statement that aligns with the type of views of members of the Orange Order and therefore the song could be deemed as not being sectarian due to the fact that The Orange Order is not in fact a religion but a group of people who although members of a particular religion only exist because of their hatred for another religion and those who practice that religion, namely Catholics.
Does any of that make sense?
MWD
just in from a sporting evening in the cotswold twee town of Fairford in Gloucetershire (my home town) where I had the pleasure of listening to Jan Molby at sporting dinner at Fairford Town FC. The best player he has ever seen or played with was Johan Cruyff, who was 37 years old when he was there there. He moved to Liverpool when he was twenty years old and described his first ever pre-game debut experience which was at Norwich. Bob Paisley was manager and twenty minutes before kick -off he was not told anything as regards tatics and what he had to do so he went over to Bob Paisley to ask what the game plan was. Bob Paisley said to him ” at 4.45 I will let you know what you did wrong”.
Best player he had ever played with, bearing in mind he has played with Liverpool for 12 years during a fair bit of their glory days and his best mate is Ian Rush, was John Barnes.
When Graeme the Beast was manager he brought in a policy of match weight, which in effect meant if at the weekly weigh in, if you werr above the match weight set for you, you would not play. On the first day of the regime, the Beast asked Jan what was the the lightest he had ever been. He replied 7 pounds 3 ounces !!!!
Cotswold CSC
Brogan etc.
Aye, I do remember, and I agree that they would find us offensive come what may, this is the problem mi amigo, and this is a serious problem.
Times are a changing, money is getting tight the world over, the lack of funds makes people agitated, they get into a self mode they lash out and want to fight, jeezo, they are talking about bombing Iran next, that WILL lead to serious problems btw.
Naw, we are at a crossroads, stay and be the bum bhoys, or do everything in our power to get out.
I would rather our club folds than be beholding to them any longer.
dirtymac says:
13 November, 2011 at 00:40
Knowyourenemy says:
13 November, 2011 at 00:27
The problem with that, is that for many orcs for many years ‘Fenian’ was synonymous with ‘Catholic’ ergo it’s de facto sectarian connotations.
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and of course the problem with this, is that for many celtic supporters both ‘Hun’ and ‘Dirty Orange B’ are synonymous with ‘Protestant’ ergo it’s de facto sectarian connotations and the reason why the courts find it unlawful
Buddy Morrisey says:
13 November, 2011 at 00:49
Hahaha. Seriously?
He asng such songs, but knew it was wrong? Aye, he certainly did, really, no I mean really, he did. Such a bad, bad thing. So very wrong. Which is exactly why he managed a team that continued to defend such songs. Aye, and turned his back on his country to manage them again at the very height of their parochial ‘Why don’t you go home’ insularity.
Glib words from a milksop whore of a man.
Regarding the Orange Order’s right to march? Funnier than your defence of the Myth – the fact they exist should be offensive to any reasonable person and they are indeed of similar ilk to the KKK. What difference wearing a mask or not when the goals are the same – one might argue that Hitler was ok because he didn’t wear a white hood – are you really suggesting such?
The Orange Order and their kind have committed a multitude of sins that easily surpass those of the KKK.
If you know your history.
Knowyourenemy says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:03
No, the problem is that for many huns, the term ‘hun’ is erroneously taken to be synonymous with Protestant, when in fact it is not.
Man, you’re failing like a chocolate teapot.
I would truly like to see your evidence of a court finding the term ‘dirty orange bastard’ as being synonymous with Protestant.
Canamalar
I wasn’t dismissing it, I was simply pointing out that it didn’t stop the atrocities getting worse. It took 10 men starving themselves to death to create the awareness and stop the atrocities getting worse IMO.
I must add I wasn’t there in the 70s and still too young to remember the early part of the 80s. But out of all the books I’ve read on the republican movement, I can’t recollect one which gives the Celtic Support a major role, I’d be interested in reading that – if it exists.
hh
bjmac
Knowyourenemy says:
13 November, 2011 at 00:55
I refer you to my earlier responses.
dirtymac says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:06
Knowyourenemy says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:03
No, the problem is that for many huns, the term ‘hun’ is erroneously taken to be synonymous with Protestant, when in fact it is not.
————————————————————————————————————————————————————–
Which is exactly the ame argument espoused by Rangers fans who used the term ‘Fenian’
the problem is that for many celtic supporters, the term ‘fenian’ is erroneously taken to be synonymous with catholic, when in fact it is not.
Now John Wilson, guilty or not guilty as charged ?
“and of course the problem with this, is that for many celtic supporters both ‘Hun’ and ‘Dirty Orange B’ are synonymous with ‘Protestant’ ergo it’s de facto sectarian connotations and the reason why the courts find it unlawful ”
Was Nacho no a hun?
Wiz he really a prod?
Were Bertie Peacock and Jock Stein never OO members or lodge brothers? Did we call them huns?
Are you Leggate? You show the same logical inconsistency but I’d expect him to be lying pish stained in a puddle of vomit at this time of night.
setting free the bears says:
13 November, 2011 at 00:59
I seem to recall that his words were along the lines of: some people have decided that it is wrong.
As in: I still see nothing wrong with what I sung, but apparently it is wrong. my bad and get grounded for it.
Knowyourenemy says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:03
Sorry to interupt, I agree with you on the orange B, that it could and be deemed sectarian the same way fenian b has beed adjudged sectarian – it is the same argument IMO.
However the term “hun” is entirely different, it has no religious connotations whatsoever. rfc fans called celtic fans huns in the 70s, Aberdeen, DU and many M/well fans I know of various religious call rfc the huns – no religious connection with that term whatsoever. I’m quite certain when a sizeable number of the rfc support stop behaving like huns the term will be dropped :-)
huns is not sectarian, Amoruso is a hun, PLG is a hun, Neil McCann is a hun, Mikel Arteta is a hun, Rino Gattusso is a hun, Marco Negri is a hun, any RC who plays for the huns is a hun.
hh
bjmac
Knowyourenemy says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:09
It would appear that you cannot back up you claims then?
And please, don’t call me John Wilson.
Walter Myth on singing bigoted songs (The Scotsman, April 2011):
But I think when there is a reaction, as there has been over the last few years, against those traditions then the people who do sing them – and I would stress that I don’t think it’s the majority of Rangers supporters – need to take into account that in a modern era it’s maybe not acceptable for them to do so. Therefore they need to realise the club are going to suffer quite drastic consequences if they don’t stop.
Bjmac,
you are dismissing it, there are no books, but again I ask who in the UK was more vociferous, where else in the UK could you hear protest as loud ??
How else would anyone in the UK know, in the face of the propaganda strategy being played, that not everyone in the UK agreed with the atrocities perpetrated. Likely the main reason the english and scottish highlights were seperated and regionalised, prior to sky.
Dissent of the british tactics in NI was not permitted, only place it was heard was on fooball highlights, especially europe, and it was edited accordingly.
BTRH
only logged on because my dame did,nt want to watch some sci fi film alone. It has to be said IMO that your posts are first class,and for me even educational if there is such a word.At school i was taught nothing of Burns despite the school being walking distance from his birthplace.A good friend
last year invited me to a Burns supper,it was an enjoyable night part of which was a talk on the banning of scottish dialect in the time you mention.
On the IRA chants,when i attended Celtic park in the eighties i could never imagined the place where Sien Fien find themselves now.Nearly 30 years
and a peace process later they are not required or needed.IMO. Look forward to more of your posts.Good night all,having lunch with MacAvennie & McLeod tomorrow with 70 other celtic fans in Ayr. Sleep well .HH
Bjmac
So you are a baby then, earliest you were born was 1980, according to your post, or am I wrong :>) must admit, thought you were older going by your posts, at least in your 40’s, strange things are blogs, we all have our impressions of who posts, and what they may or may not look like, me am just a fat bloke who drinks too much, and on ocasion can have a good score on the golf course.
HH
dirtymac says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:15
Knowyourenemy says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:09
It would appear that you cannot back up you claims then?
And please, don’t call me John Wilson.
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I’ll simply quote the esteemed webmaster on here
Paul67
14-03-2011, 08:43 AM
Just to be clear on this.
While it may be ok to discuss whether or not we feel the phrase is sectarian, it is sectarian in the eyes of the authorities.
Now, on the other hand, John Wilson called Neil Lennon ‘a dirty Fenian B ‘ (allegedly) and was cleared of religious prejudice by a stout jury of this land. A verdict which again, you obviously agree with.
Br\o/gan R\o/gan Trevin\o/ and H\o/gan says:
13 November, 2011 at 00:50
spot on… mindset, mindset, mindset
hun, fenian… geez a break, we’re big boys, no?
Personally, I would let everybody sing whatever songs they like, as it exposes the character for all to see… question for us is what character do we want to possess?
TBOTOB… no problem, no difference to Flower of Scotland IMO…. the ooh ah chants and the like, tho they’re scarce now, are pish and an embarassment
Those pesky Catholic Hearts fans suggesting the huns go home.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBoPe1uaSC0
Buddy Morrisey says:
13 November, 2011 at 00:49
See above^^
Not exactly regarding it as ‘wrong’, more that it was maybe not acceptable because the orcs might suffer consequences.
A fair departure from: I was wrong because it is wrong to sing such songs.
Myth the bigot apologist (2011)
Br\o/gan R\o/gan Trevin\o/ and H\o/gan says:
12 November, 2011 at 23:29
One of the best article I have read on CQN.
You forgot to mention the unparalleled contributions to science, economics,
engineering and western civilization in general from Scots and Scotland.
A Nation of 5 million people. Scottish education achieved this.
You are of course correct and James too, however, a large part of the
modern Irish Celtic contingent believe Celtic ‘is theirs”.
Whenever I meet them I get infuriated and of course subsequently labelled a hun.
As for the new, in the pipeline, sectarian legislation we all know it is hypocrisy.
Singing songs at football grounds is all about antagonism. Now Celtic supporters are
not allowed to antagonize and it is just beginning.
When it comes to philosophy, existentialism and singing songs you cant beat the old quotes.
To be is to do — Socrates
To do is to be — Sartre
Doo, bee, doo, bee, doo — Sinatra
…and yes I believe Rabbie and Walfrid are spinning in their graves down there in St. Michael’s.
Knowyourenemy says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:21
I think you are confused (more than that which is obvious). You have failed to back up your assertion that the authorities have deemed questioning Myths parentage and hue as being sectarian.
Chocolate. Teapot. Failing. Badly.
Canalamarthan
Sorry but I don’t get the “tone” of your point? The Thatcher Governments stance on Ireland and the Hunger strikers was almost universally condemned by most other governments– apart from Ronnie the raygun obviously. There were protests and murals in Rome about Bobby Sands and there were political movements here. Some marches, meetings and so on.
Further there were legal challenges to Internment and other practices including the use of the 5 techniques which lead to Britain having more “convictions” before the European Court of Human rights than any other established country!
Now are you really trying to suggest that Celtic park drove all that?
I attended Celtic park pretty regularly in the 70’s and I am sorry I do not recall that being the vibe at all. Songs about Harry Harry, Lou Macari and so on. Songs about Harper being a barrell etc.
Then in the 80’s we got the rousing threesome of On the one road, a nation once again, and the soldier song! That was about as militant and vocal as it got– and some hadn’t a clue about what they were singing about at all as was demonstrated in many a conversation at the time as the knowledge of Irish Politics was … well…… Pish!!!
I will grant you that the odd march in the Connolly name got a bit scary at times– then again so did the ones for CND—- but don’t try and tell me that the vast majority who went to Celtic park went to sing out and stand up for the six counties because that is bull.
There was an element– bloody impossible for there not to have been—- who took events in Ireland far more seriously than others but let’s not kid ourselves on that Celtic park was the most important place of protest or give the Celtic support an importance that it just did not have.
I remember an announcement when I was at University in the late ’70s which proclaimed that Strathclyde University Students Union had just sent an official message of support to the Sandinista rebels in Nicaragua and thinking ” Yip that’ll swing things their way”.
Sorry but your take on things are different to mine and as for the RomanTIC notions that you speak of I believe in a little romance and there is plenty to be found in protest movements, social causes, and so on– all mixed with a healthy dose of pragmatism and cynicism you understand.
With that I am away to join hands and contact the living!
Knowyourenemy says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:21
It should be pointed out that, from what I understand of the trial, that the jury dismissed the evidence given as opposed to the content of the evidence. A subtle but very telling difference.
AFAIK, the only conviction regarding usage of the word hun was a sheriff court conviction (i.e. non-jury) where the defendant had pled guilty to a sectarian crime. Prosecution of such a term has not yet been tested.
Br\o/gan R\o/gan Trevin\o/ and H\o/gan says:
Does Christine Graham really think that she can pass a law that will stand scrutiny and the test of the educated in so far as to make certain things that she simply does not like “offensive” and therefore illegal? What nonesense.
What a stupid woman. Stupid because anyone can see that this is bad law and bad law always– I repeat ALWAYS — fails. Whatsmore she is equally stupid if she is simply not getting her message across and she means something else entirely. That is the sign of a stupid politician.
As for the policeman– I wonder if he has stopped to consider the repercussions of such a complaint? I hope he has because it represents an amazing opportunity for debate. Think of the RED faces at Holyrood if before the multigazzilion pound parliament gets to pass any law, Eufa throw out such a complaint about “Offensive” singing as utter nonsense and total baloney? I welcome his complaint. If anyone on here finds the Rangers Tax Case blog interesting then I can assure you The Offensive behaviour blog will knock it for six!!!
—————————————————————————————————
I think your missing the point this law is set to fail.. it nullifies the existing legislation and allows sectarian crimes to continue under the banner that the law un enforceable.
ßjmac ® °¿° says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:13
However the term “hun” is entirely different, it has no religious connotations whatsoever. rfc fans called celtic fans huns in the 70s, Aberdeen, DU and many M/well fans I know of various religious call rfc the huns – no religious connection with that term whatsoever. I’m quite certain when a sizeable number of the rfc support stop behaving like huns the term will be dropped :-)
huns is not sectarian, Amoruso is a hun, PLG is a hun, Neil McCann is a hun, Mikel Arteta is a hun, Rino Gattusso is a hun, Marco Negri is a hun, any RC who plays for the huns is a hun.
————————————————————————————————————–
and again, the same argument is espoused by Rangers fans defending the use of the word Fenian. The word Fenian refers to anyone with Republican sympathies in the minds of some rangers supporters, it also refers more commonly nowadays to anyone who plays for Celtic, or referees in general in Scotland as we all know their allegiance to Celtic. Ki is a fenian, Foster is a fenian, Strachan was a fenian, van hooijdonk was a fenian, Miller was a fenian,
You see, it is the same arguments and it will be the same outcome with UEFA. No matter the protestations on both sides, those who continue to engage in the songs and use the abusive terms will be the cause of charges against their clubs.
The gemme’s a bogey
Why anyone in their right mind would listen to a Dublin man or anyone else from the 26 counties, talk about something they did not even want to know about, is beyond me.
It is akin to watching Mississippi Burning and asking the red necks.
I’m done with justifying why our people stood up for themselves, including my family. I’m proud of everyone, some of whom are not with me now.
Great to know that there was men who were there to protect us. I love every single one of them.
I’m done with explaining to people on this blog who know fuck all about oppression.
Finally, I’m done with people who tell me what to do. Do they not understand that we have moved on and I just cannot listen to that shit any more.
I do not advocate IRA songs at Celtic Park, I did sing them as a young man when my country was under occupation and I felt that Celtic Park was my only sanctuary.
So BRTH, have a walk in my brogues before you pontificate about what I or anyone else in my shoes would do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCch_W2Ro38
Na sealadaigh abu.
Árd Macha
canamalar
Ok, I’m dsmissing that it changed anything in Ireland and had any impact on the brits strategy and how they went about implementing it.
I’ve never seen or read evidence to contradict this, I am happy for you to change my view on this.
I’m not dismissing that CP was the largest regular gathering where anti-british politics could & would be aired vociferously and that this helped spread the word on what was really happening in Ireland.
I do accept what you on the general reporting of what was going on as being correct and I have several relations who were actively involved in the Irish humans rights movement, particularly around CP, simply feel you’re over egging the part it played on the brits strategy in Ireland, if anything thatcher would’ve went in harder.
hh
bjmac
BRTH<
that'll be why they banned the hibs march eh, I expect revisionism is why Jock Stein never told the Celtic support to stop singing songs.
dirtymac says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:30
It should be pointed out that, from what I understand of the trial, that the jury dismissed the evidence given as opposed to the content of the evidence. A subtle but very telling difference.
AFAIK, the only conviction regarding usage of the word hun was a sheriff court conviction (i.e. non-jury) where the defendant had pled guilty to a sectarian crime. Prosecution of such a term has not yet been tested.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
So, even from that understanding of the case you obviously agree with the decision.
The conviction ( and the admission ) proves the point.
One thing’s for sure, it won’t be McBride QC who tests it, because we already know his views on it.
Knowyourenemy says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:30
I would agree but for the fact that you’re talking nonsense throughout that post, which is a shame, because other than that your posts always have the correct time. I mean, in at least that small measure you’re not 100% inaccurate.
Well done :-)
Knowyourenemy says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:37
Evidently you don’t understand the subtle difference.
Still, you got the time right again. Gold star.
Knowyourenemy, Dirtymac,
are you two lawyers? Borin the teets aff me
ah know, ah know… scroll by
Árd Macha says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:31
you ok bud? who’s tellin ya what to do?
bed o’clock.
Night y’all.
TET
Just noticed your post, no, born ’73 – I went to a couple of games late 70s but don’t remember them, same with early 80s
Well I knew you were an auld codger, was with Philbhoy and wee Olivia at Rennes game – vPhilbhoy is to blame for starting the “sectarian” & “offensive” singing ;-)
hh
bjmac
dirtymac says:
13 November, 2011 at 01:22
Not exactly regarding it as ‘wrong’, more that it was maybe not acceptable because the orcs might suffer consequences.
A fair departure from: I was wrong because it is wrong to sing such songs.
Myth the bigot apologist (2011)
———————————————————————————————————
Again, when you depart from facts to distortion, you know you have lost the argument. What Sir Walter said, please give him his correct title, was actually
Smith,63,said he indulged in chanting as a youngster that he knew he had to cut out as he got older and began to understand the issues he was singing about.
He said: “Back then there were aspects of living in the west of Scotland that were easy to get caught up in.
“I would have been 13 or 14 years old – a kid. I did not have a clue what the words meant. But it was 50 years ago and later you realise what those things mean and you just don’t sing them because it is completely unacceptable. That’s why I haven’t done so for 50 years.”
Smith is adamant Rangers have done as much as possible to stamp out the bigoted element in its support.
He said: “It is wrong to say the club has not done the right thing in trying to stop it. We have condemned it, we have tried to stop it but how can the club be entirely responsible for every section of its support?
Sir Walter may have been many things, but anti catholic he was most certainly not.
The gemme’s a bogey
Whatever we may think about our brother from the soo side he has a point does he not, he may well be a reincarnation of what has gone before, a hun, but he has as much right to his opinion as we do.
What is his purpose for being here ? there could be a hundred reasons, matters not, he is not he problem, we are the problem we are doing what they want, dividing ourselfs, we are believing the crap they print, and we are, it is evident on here on a daily basis, even those who to profess never reading the papers quote them word for word..
Unity is what’s reqired.
Time for baw baws.
HH
KTF