All week I’ve been telling myself that it is a healthy thing that discriminatory chanting has come under the spotlight prior to Euro 2012. The world needs to focus on those who are unable to find an outlet for their testosterone without picking on the vulnerable.
We know all about discriminatory chanting in Scotland, you could say, we’re up to our knees in it, so I’ve been slightly uncomfortable at the tone to some of the reporting about Poland and Ukraine. It feels a bit like we’ve decided, ‘They have it too, let’s talk about them. Not us’. When I say “us”, I don’t mean you, of course.
Fair enough, I thought, let’s bring this issue out, but at the start of the second half between Netherlands and Denmark when BBC commentator Jonathan Pearce reported “We haven’t heard any racist comments here today. Not when the young, black, Dutch left back got the ball, or at any other time” I figured this is more about xenophobia than racism. Xenophobia about Eastern Europe.
We’re no wiser about how to deal with our testosterone-fuelled under-achievers with a purpose to find than anyone else. In fact, we’re worse for allowing our intellectuals to indulge in the last refuge of the scoundrel.
My money is on the Polish and Ukrainian fans emerging from this tournament with a better reputation than some of their Western European counterparts.
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Neil Lennon is (and always will be) a Celtforlife (*O*) on 10 June, 2012 at 00:40 said:
Lol – it could always be worse all the same,a WGS debate is a debate that i have promised myself never to take part or engage in again!!
FlakJacketCSC.
dirtymac @ 00:41
That’s a very good point well made amigo.
Can we have a debate debate?
Sixteen roads to Golgotha
Did you have a problem with WGS??
The Debate Exorcist CSC
There is absolutely no point in debate.
Discuss. 3000 words.
HT,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAjv7QCQkzw
Fortunes Favour Mibbes on 10 June, 2012 at 00:45 said:
FifthAmendmentCSC. :)
Smoke, Mirrors and some Whitewash for good measure (non-hit Scotsman article)
In full:
Campell Ogilvie interview in The Scotsman
Read it here without giving them a hit.
By ANDREW SMITH
Published on Sunday 10 June 2012 00:22
SFA president Campbell Ogilvie answers questions from Andrew Smith on his time as secretary and director of Rangers and the Ibrox club’s use of Employee Benefit Trusts (EBTs). Ogilvie himself received £95,000 from Rangers through EBTs.
Q: Did you see the BBC documentary on Rangers, The Men Who Sold The Jerseys?
A: I was away at the FIFA Congress, but I did see it when I came back.
Q: A striking issue to come out of that was an alleged payment to Graeme Souness. Were you surprised by that?
A: No, I wasn’t aware of that. I wasn’t aware of who individually was involved.
Q: Can you see there being an issue with you being SFA president at a time when there is an ongoing SPL investigation into non-disclosure of payments at Rangers that you are directly linked to? You were a director and the secretary who signed off the accounts in November 2001. At that time the EBT scheme was in operation and players were receiving payments that weren’t in their contracts.
A: I was secretary up until 2002. That’s correct. I was a director, that’s correct.
Q: Did you never see there could be a potential conflict using EBTs to pay footballers?
A: No, not at that time, not at all. I didn’t do the contracts. I might have signed some documents from time to time. I certainly didn’t do the player negotiations, I didn’t do the contracts.
Q: But you signed off the accounts…
A: I signed off the accounts in good faith, quite simply.
Q: Without the knowledge of what was in these accounts? Was that remiss of you?
A: The EBTs as a total were in the accounts. There wasn’t a breakdown of individual players to the best of my knowledge.
Q: They were mentioned as a total. But then nothing is given individually, with total salary costs and so on. Wouldn’t there be an expectation secretaries would normally involve themselves in contracts?
A: This is the point I’m making, I wasn’t involved in the negotiations of contracts. If I signed off the accounts it has been in good faith. I was company secretary by name, no hiding from that point. We had accountants and lawyers. I’m not an accountant, I’m not a lawyer. I’m a football administrator. At that time I wasn’t dealing with contracts.
Q: As a director and secretary you had no knowledge of the way players were paid?
A: Correct. I knew there were player contracts, naturally. There were some EBTs that came in 2001. Now the depth or the detail of these EBTs, I don’t know who got the individual EBTs at that time.
Q: Was there anything you saw in the [BBC] programme that would change your mind about how EBTs operated?
A: I did say when we met in March there were no side contracts. That is the case to the best of my knowledge. The question is probably how the EBTs operated and this is the matter the SPL are looking at.
Q: As secretary you would have registered the contracts with the appropriate football bodies presumably?
A: No. That’s what I’m saying. I didn’t deal with player contracts at that time.
Q: Who was responsible?
A: Whoever was dealing with the financial side. You’ve got to go back in time here. Football contracts used to be a straightforward one sheet of paper. Over time contracts, like any sponsorship, contracts became quite complicated.
Q: At what time did you become aware EBTs were going to become a problem?
A: I took one on myself. I didn’t have any of my salaries paid through them. It was three bonuses, as I said back in March, that I got through EBTs. And when I left the club part of my settlement agreement was through EBTs. There is no way I would have taken an EBT on when I was leaving the club if I thought there was an issue with them.
Q: No suggestion of any wrongdoing on your part, but do you not feel your stewardship there is embarrassing or tainted? Do you not look back and think “I was there through all this”?
A: Listen, I’m going to put my hands up. I was there. I’m not disputing that. I was secretary, no matter what the duties were. For a year of that period from 2001 to 2002 I was a director. Probably a lot of you know the way the club operated. There wasn’t that frequent board meetings. You certainly wouldn’t necessarily know – I’m sure the other directors didn’t even know – who was receiving EBTs. That’s just the way the club was. I’m not going to hide from anything. I’m just telling you a fact that I didn’t know individually who was getting the EBTs.
Q: Do you feel negligence on your part, there is a perception of negligence…
A: There’s a difference between perception and reality. It wasn’t my duty to carry it out. I don’t feel negligent, no not at all.
Q: Did you ever think about stepping down until the investigation is over?
A: If I felt it was causing the organisation bigger issues and they felt, the board felt, the members felt – then sure, if that was the case, absolutely. If it was put to me to stand down while this was carried out, and if that was the feeling of the board and the members or whoever, absolutely. I haven’t seen a need to do that. You keep coming back to a perception. I’ve heard that I set up the whole scheme. You’d think with the amounts mentioned I was there for the whole time. And that I’ve been responsible for the whole of that. There’s a perception out there. You wouldn’t be questioning me today if it wasn’t for the role I’ve currently got, I appreciate that. I would have disappeared over the sunset probably. I’ve put everything on the table back in March – that hasn’t changed.
Q: Has it changed the way you view your time at Rangers?
A: Hindsight is a great thing, and if I had known some of the issues that are coming up I might have done things differently, I don’t know. Would I have taken an EBT when I left the club? Probably not, if I had known all this but everything was above board, there was no reason to question it. Somebody asked me the question, when did it become apparent there was a question mark about the EBTs. You tell me, when was it [around 2008]. I was away in 2005. I am not hiding from anything here, I am just stating the fact, but the last three years my role at Ibrox had changed quite dramatically. I moved on to director of football strategy. I was doing less and less and I am not hiding from anything, I am just stating the fact. That is one of the reasons I left the club – because I was less and less involved.
Q: How damaged do you feel by your association with that period at Rangers?
A: Damaged? I don’t feel damaged as such. I certainly appreciate I was there at that time and people will associate me with some of the issues at that time. I can’t hide from that – I was there – and people will have to draw their own conclusions from the facts as they come out.
Q: What kind of reaction have you had from the rank and file of the clubs?
A: To me, they have been very supportive and the board have been very supportive. From day one, I said I cannot be part of any discussion on Rangers. I have stood down from any involvement on the Rangers side of the debate. That was clear from day one from my side and from the SFA side that had to be the case. Now if I am causing the SFA a problem, and the board felt that and the clubs felt that, I would stand down – but there are all these other issues still have to be dealt with. If in any way I am causing them an issue and the SPL investigation is coming up whenever, it is started now, we will see the outcome of that. And if the members of the SFA or the board want me to stand down that is the way it will be. If that is not the case, then we will discuss it.
Q: If Rangers become a newco, the decision has to be taken whether they will be allowed in the SPL or start again in the SFL. Some Rangers supporters think they should take their medicine and start at the Third Division. Do you think it should be a footballing decision or financial decision?
A: I’m sure it’ll be done for football integrity.
Q: Do you really think that?
A: Yes. It has to be
Sixteen roads to Golgotha
:)) Is that you making a tribute to WGS’ meeja approach?? :)))
I am going to assume that Lars is genuine & is trying to make what he sees as a valid point.
I love the BOTOB & find no fault whatsoever in the words.
I sing it regularly.
However, I am happy to accept that any mention of the IRA is, quite understandably, offensive to a lot of people, many of whom have no hostility to Ireland or its struggles.
I would not sing it at football matches for two reasons. Firstly, because it may cause offence to people who misunderstand it & who think that we are glorifying the IRA. Secondly, I feel that it would disrespect the song itself, which is too precious to me to use it as way of making a point about my nationality or heritage. Those of us who are comfortable with our own heritage don’t feel the need to assert it to people who have no understanding of it.
I have enough opportunities to sing it among people who like myself have a love of its words & its sentiments.
dirtymac
:)) The word “squriming” comes to mind. Hilarious.
HT,
You probably saw it, but just in case, Cry Freedom, about Biko (Kevin Kline I think in it). Excellent film. From the early 90s I think.
RC (Ogilvie) still, quite obviously, not getting the ‘why did you not know?’ part of being a (failure of a) director.
Fortunes Favour
I’m sure it’s a secret…
Although a discernable pattern of general skullduggery does emerge in retrospect to their existence…
Is that it mibbees….? ;)
Kilbowie Kelt on 10 June, 2012 at 00:52
Agreed.
A circular song debate is so last decade.
We just go around in circles, like an old 78, repeating the same old arguments and we all end up back where we started.
No one changes their minds.
A few feathers are ruffled and some noses are put out of joint.
Cyber bytes and band width is used to no purpose.
Personally I prefer a WGS discussion. That way I can always be secure in the knowledge that I am right.
Clearly missing one last question:
Q: Are you saying that cheating dogs should indeed die?
A: erm!!??
‘GG
I asked for 3000 words on the usefulness of debate.
Your 60 or so word response doesn’t cut it.
Hours detention for you amigo. Will consider your appeal against that when you confirm your WGS position.
The bould Hector’s bhoys
:)) General skullduggery is no discernible culture !
I think.
Or is it…???
Hmm. I suppose when you do it over a number of years and it is celebrated with chants of “No one likes us we don’t care”, then mibbes….the answer is aye.
Feck. So they actually DO have a culture ! Bizarre :))
Mr Stimpson on 9 June, 2012 at 21:51 said:
Great interview with Alex Ferguson on the official Celtic site. Well worth a look.
Thanks for the steer in this direction it certainly was worth a look.
Kilbowie Kelt I also agree boys of the old brigade is a great song!I like to sing to the words also but not whilst i am watching my football team .People said earlier that it offends people that don’t understand it i understand fully of the men and women of ireland that gave their lives for their country but lets get together in a hall have a few pint and lets sing our songs.Not at Celtic Park or any other ground where anyone can condemn us and label us as bad as them across the river.
also getting back to the musical debate The men they couldn’t hang had a great version of the green fields of france which 6 weeks b4 my wedding date my gran died and after the funeral in Sunderland we went back to my uncles club and sat down with my uncle and sang this song.A certain guest at my wedding was our own Joe O’Rouke who i admire very much as a local Portonion.
Think i am barred.Tried to post a response to Fortunes Favour Mibbes,but it didn’t show up.
Maybe not.
Fortunes Favour 01:03
:)
We’re onto summit Ah tells ye….hehe
Only just logged on btw and agree our songs are nothing to be ashamed of.
Sixteen roads to Golgotha
It can be a bit random, certain words or phrases can make your post on hold for moderation.
Has happened to me. It’s frustrating but necessary to stop anti-WGS rants ;)
FFM
Ye saw it mate thanks for that link. The problem with guys putting things up is that you then follow other links and can disappear for an age.
Have you heard this one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XI0c3c_epCU
Paul67
The last refuge of this scoundrel………
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izrygGt-6ZE&feature=related
Teuchter
AlexStevensonCSC
The bould Hector’s bhoys
As it seems it’s just you, me and 16 roads on now, we need to come up with a heated point of discussion asap.
If we don’t…the outcome is unthinkable.
We are looking at blog implosion.
I suggest a discussion on the little known UK actress Jessica Hynes, who does it for me, but not so much for others…..there is the possibility that she was born with ginger hair.
HT,
Know exactly what you mean. Found myself playing a load of Peter Gabriel songs aftrer it….interestin !
Haven’t heard that Christy one before, listening now. Excellent stuff, ta.
FortunesFavours
Seconded on her. Not the pure bestest, that’d be Millie Clode off SSN.
Fortunes Favour Mibbes on 10 June, 2012 at 01:19 said:
PMSL – No swear words,no nothing – was just saying that fair play to WGS,he treated the media with the contempt that they deserved.
I never once stated that i disliked WGS anyway,it’s just that sometimes his teams drove me to distraction,and once caused me to fire a half a pint bottle of Magners and the tv once,and my girl cracked up over it.
But as i tried to say,that’s life and that’s football.It’s all water under the bridge.
Have to share this Christy one.
It was the first Christy song I remember hearing, played to us 18 yrs olds taking a trip to Moville, Donegal, in 1991.
Brilliant stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oqBEO4I-kk
FFM
Your Jessica gets a naw from me so I’ll leave you and Bloke109 to fight for her!!
Fortunes Favour Mibbes on 10 June, 2012 at 01:19 said:
It’s not working mate – just tried to say fair play to WGS how the treated the MSM with the contempt that they deserved.
His t-shirt proved he was a Tim,Boruc…Boruc!
FFM
Another Christy classic and probably the bestest version I’ve found on tinternet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIh5dUOz824&feature=fvwrel
Apparently it’s a favourite of Philvis’.
Bloke109
FFS, she’s a bit blond and bland imo.
I think you can only be interested in her for her Dim White tales of attempted drunkin groping !
This is not to say I would knock her back though, if she made a point of justifying her interest by buying me 12 guiness :)