Strict liability: if football fans misbehave in a stadium, their club is held liable.
This is the Uefa way and is how most European national associations conduct their business. Not in Scotland. In Scotland there is a belief that some problems are so entrenched, it would be unfair to penalise clubs, who do whatever they can to discourage fans from, for example, setting off flares. Here, a club which does everything it can to stop an errant act is not held liable.
It wouldn’t be an exaggeration to say some clubs fear strict liability. Celtic cannot stop people setting off flares, they take steps to discourage it, so, the argument goes, why fine or otherwise punish Celtic?
It’s a cop out. I’d hate to see points deducted, leagues decided, because a club was proxy for a strict liability offender, but everything else is on the table. Clubs are poor at policing their own, there are in-built inhibitors which make doing so difficult. Strict liability takes the issue out of their hands. Stands will be shut, ticket allocations withdrawn, but almost certainly only once.
Flare carriers are the most difficult to police as they are the act of a small number of individuals, who are able to protect themselves [although not their club]by hiding in a crowd, but strict liability would end offensive chanting by thousands overnight.
For that, it’s worth it.
Only caught last night’s Motherwell game in highlights. Newco looked like the Rangers I remember from the early 80s. Despite being a mid-table mediocre outfit, Rangers were, and played like, a big team back then. They attacked with all they had, but John Greig was often out-thought by the manager of a small club, who could organise a defence and break with purpose.
Football tactic students will be captivated by the second leg. Do Newco go on the attack, and risk the same outcome, or do they learn to live within their limitations, hoping to tempt Motherwell beyond theirs? The team which gets it wrong could lose by three goals. It’s a good job Newco didn’t screw around with the ticket allocation, they’ll need that away end packed and energetic.
Thanks for all the feedback on the new issue of CQN Magazine, lots of great reading.
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bgx-don’t mention the flare at last night’s game either….ssshhhh
blantyretim is praying for the Knox family
15:13 on
29 May, 2015
BGX
Fav uncle was asking after you yesterday
thanks for trying.i got 2 winners for tomorrow ,hope he gets in touch.
Depressing blog. Old firmism all day.
Valid points are obscured by some absurd comparisons with Jews or with the blacks who suffered under American bigotry.
Little acknowledgement that we have our own issues with songs etc.
Scotland has changed a lot. It still has problems, only a deluded nationalist would deny that, but its problems are miniscule in comparison to general world issues.
robert88
I know that’s my point.
Davidopoulos
15:17 on
29 May, 2015
All this talk about strict liability and vicarious liability has got me thinking about torts and now I’m hungry…
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Defamished..?
TortuousLegalPunsCSC
Blantyretim…Cheers man….Fav Uncle…Hey You..Great Result Last Night, Motherwell Nines On To see of The Huns…And i aint buying masonic Conspiracies or Refs Honest Mistakes, Thems is Staying Where they Are….For another season…Then There will Be ..league Reconstruction…But Thats for another Day…Ha.
Beefheart
What songs do we sing that upset your good self
Many don’t like republican songs but they are not sectarian
Bgx,
I think most of us are ok with league reconstruction.
But not to accommodate that mob
HH
Davidopoulos
15:17 on 29 May, 2015
Time for a delictious tortilla?
Geordie Munro…I Think the Leagues will change, season after next regardless of where the huns finish…Just my Thoughts…
BMCUWP
Cheers. I wrote that about three years ago in an attempt at suggesting an alternative to the inevitable path the sectarian parade has taken us since.
Interestingly it was picked up by then Cardinal Keith O Brian who put the idea to his parliamentary adviser and communication adviser at the National Catholic Reporter.
The conclusion from the latter was there was no one on the opposite side of the fence to actually look into the merits of a T&R approach.
Three years on that still seems to be the case which is why I’m suggesting that lines need to be drawn on what is sanctionable.
If as a shareholder my share value may decrease as a result of a sanction imposed I want to be damn sure that sanction is deserved and the behaviour that attracted it was clearly specified.
History tells us T&R is always going to be the long term solution to continuing strife but in the meantime minimise the impact of its lack.
captain beefheart @ 15:24,
As far as Sectarianism goes Scotland has a HUGE problem, it is blinded by it’s bigotry, if it doesn’t get “enlightened” very soon it will continue to keep the Country back.
Racially we’re the same folk, the divide and rule propagandists won the day. Scotland smarting up on this is far overdue.
Far from being different from the Americans blind spot on Black racism it is exactly the same. Sure or Police Force don’t go round shooting fholk but that is a cultural manifestation rather than an attitude.
Hail Hail
BMCUP,
Sacrilege. An Irishman opening a cafe/chippy, you say?
Would deserve to get their windows ” panned”!!!
Leave it to the masters. We know how to make ice cream and proper chips ! : > )
Big Nan
15:07 on
29 May, 2015
Poor article Paul.
Do you really believe that “strict liability would end offensive chanting by thousands overnight.”?
Say we are dead heated with THEM at the last game of season. At stake is what will be enhanced CL millions of pounds.
Do you think that THEIR management or ours will not be pulling out all the stops to curb sectarian and other offensive chanting, if a possible points deduction penalty is on the table?
Big Nan
I support the main sentiment in all you say.
The Tolerance Paradox in action, so enough is enough.
But…
Today’s article has stimulated all of this interaction and dialogue on one of the most relevant subjects to all Celtic fans. Can’t be bad.
Hope you are well.
Fit for Purpose CSC
.
timaloy29
10:14 on
29 May, 2015
Zbyszek
Neil McCallum
*Neil McCallum although buried in Bonhill Parish Church had his funeral officiated by Father Neil Murray of the neighbouring Our Lady and St Marks RC Church, same church I was baptised in.
The Parish Church graveyard was the only burial site in the Parish of Bonhill at that time so all denominations, including my Irish great grandparents, were buried there.
Anyone else have problems accessing the official club site?
Error 500 is what I get.
Deadline day meltdown?
F5 CSC
ernie lynch
15:34 on
29 May, 2015
Davidopoulos
15:17 on 29 May, 2015
Time for a delictious tortilla?
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Haha, very funny. I was trying to come back with a play on civil / Seville (oranges) but my brain peaked with the last post…
I can’t see even the footballing authorities in Scotland being brazen enough to change the league structure for next season right now.
But look for discussions over the summer on a three league structure – for the good of the game of course. That way the top four or five in the Championship next season can look forward to promotion. And surely they couldn’t mess that up, could they??
Annual event on Italian cooncil tele – send a tv crew to the famously “loquacious” city of Liverpool. Hit the streets with an interviewer , a microphone and a camera and then broadcast the No Comments re Heysel.
RWE, I am fine.
I think that whatever problems we as a club have with regard to what our new laws deem offensive singing/chanting can only be addressed by a concesus position adopted by the Celtic family.
How we get the various groups, club, supporters groups such as CT, CSA, GB round the table to discuss this is another matter.
If we leave it to the Celtic board we will see another JAG fiasco.
Blantyre, I have heard those songs since childhood. They don’t particularly offend me. However, I try to respect that they may offend victims.
Chairbhoy, I firmly disagree but thank you for a civil response. These issues are obviously contentious.
Mr Pastry
14:05 on 29 May, 2015
You are Neganon I claim my prize.
Gordon_J backing Neil Lennon
15:49 on
29 May, 2015
I can’t see even the footballing authorities in Scotland being brazen enough to change the league structure for next season right now.
They were brazen enough to declare a convicted tax fraudster fit and proper to be a director of a national institution whose whole history is built on dignity and honour. Well that is if we discount wee things like not paying debts.
BOBBY MURDOCH’S CURLED-UP WINKLEPICKERS
07:47 on 29 May, 2015
PETEC
Howdy,buddy. I see you are once again the proud owner of a UNITED IRISHMEN CSC shirt.
##########################################
I’m actually in ownership of two now, as there is no way the Top will shrink to fit ma Bhoy, that is fine by me. :)
Almore is an incredibly kind person.
Rwe,
The home page seems a bit buggy on mobile it seems but I’m getting around the news stories ok.
Ffs!! A new team card!!??
I wasn’t prepared for that :))
HH
Highly recommend Blatter’s Vote Me speech – the man just loves football.!
Warning – place a basin on your knee before watching..Up there with Clinton and Blair.
see a fair bit of praise on Sevcomedia for Shane Ferguson, demanding that he start on Sunday …
just for fun, could we start a rumor that he cant play on Sunday, as, between going to mass in the morning, and playing GAA in the afternoon, he just cant fit it in ….
What a homologation…
Davidopolousous: Try this one for size – http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01491/poe01_1491346c.jpg
NAtknow, Weeminger etc, Cheers.
Neganon: Spent a little time this morning reading the report, but haven’t finished yet. It’s a curious piece of work, I agree. In the main it gets the principle right but the detail is inconsistent. This is one example:
“In practice, it is impossible to finally and absolutely separate the term ‘sectarianism’ from these other critical phenomena: anti-immigrant sentiment and anti-Irish racism, issues of poverty and industrialisation, local and regional factors, and important dimensions of gender.
While it is important to acknowledge the continuity of these factors in contributing to sectarianism, it also makes it important to avoid overly simple or general responses to a concept which has taken on many forms and meanings and often serves as a generic name for a number of different factors.
Sectarianism in Scotland should therefore not be dismissed or described as any single one of the above.”
Ultimately, we need to recognise that ‘sectarianism’ is not unlawful. It’s not even defined at Law. Hate is. More specifically, Hate directed against a person’s protected characteristics.
The recommendation to include ‘sectarianism’ within the wider measures and policy on Hate and Equality are sound, provided we first recognise that positive expressions of self-identity are valid and legitimate, and while they may be considered to fall within the lexicon or landscape of sectarianism, that is largely because such identities are the object of sectarian attitudes. They are not of and by themselves offensive.
Identity should be celebrated.
Discrimination should be challenged.
Including the positive expression of certain identities, but not others, within the ‘sectarian’ context is profoundly counter-productive and itself intuitively sectarian. It is on this basis that I have concern over the recommendation to include what is referred to as ‘songs and chants that mix religion, politics, and national identity in ways that are sectarian’.
There’s the big alarm bell for me. We’re now moving away from legal principle, and entering the territory of subjectivity and personal preference.
Once again: Sectarianism is not illegal. It’s not even defined at law, although this report does provide a working definition that turns on “excluding, discriminating against or being abusive or violent towards others”, which at a stroke implies a contradiction with the opinion expressed on certain songs.
My view is that giving positive expression to a protected identity is to be encouraged. Giving negative expression is unlawful.
Everything else is taste, personal preference and eh… sectarianism :¬)
There’s not enough ‘seems’ in todays language.
Doh csc
Good Afternoon.
What a turn up for the books last night! There’s still a long way to go on the tie but fair play to ‘Well for their performance last night!
Here are some thoughts on the game, and on the media coverage!
https://theclumpany.wordpress.com/2015/05/29/the-jolted-narrative/
Enjoy the rest of the day!
Captain Beefheart
They don’t particularly offend me. However, I try to respect that they may offend victims.
What songs is it that dont particularly offend you CB?
bgx…
As the saying goes huns have no shame…I’ve a bet on with one in the work that they won’t go up.
Unbelievably he said if they don’t go up he will pay up…but if there is league reconstruction he will expect his money back times two. GTF ya hun bassa was my reply.
This is police message…………..
Argyle St likely to remain closed at Union St/Jamaica St for some time – diversion southbound to Clyde St. Delays likely, please be patient.
Bawsman 12:23 on 29 May, 2015
Condition of entry to a stadium is that you adhere to house rules, it’s no difficult.
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I agree.Who owns the hoos tho? lol :-)
HH
ernie lynch @ 15:34,
“Haha, very funny. I was trying to come back with a play on civil / Seville (oranges) but my brain peaked with the last post…
Well Aul Will managed it in “much ado about nothing” – he went with the bitter Oranges angle.
They don’t find many of those around nowadays.
Captain Beefheart,
Civility costs nothing, and while I don’t always agree with your posts, they tend to be thought out and tangible.
The American’s seem to have a blind spot about their Black racism. Unless your a native Indian you are pretty much an immigrant, so the American Black racism is unreasoned.
British Black racism may be wrong minded, but it is based on a certain reasoning; they come over here, they steal our jobs, they change our culture.
As with American Black racism, so with Scottish Irish and Catholic racism. West of Scotland North of Ireland the same race and at one time the same Kingdom. Catholicism took over from Celtic Paganism as the main Religion and is as Scottish, if not more Scottish than Protestantism.
It’s a difficult argument I grant you, but I’ll stick with mine and respect yours.
Hail Hail
TheClumpany
am likin your stuff morer and morer.:-)
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dont know why am smiling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMF5RnCelFE
go on cheer yirsel up even more
HH
Just seen this on that twatter thingy:
Dave King is appealing his SARS fine.He now wants the 82 years in the jail.