Apologies to all who, like me, tired of the circular ‘songs debate’ on CQN many years ago. Back in 2011, when Celtic had a similar action from Uefa to defend as they now face, I predicted a slow train wreck:
“The Debating societies will be exercised on the freedom of some to sing racially-hostile God Save the Queen, or the militaristic, Flower of Scotland, and wait for the reaction to what is euphemistically known as ‘the marching season’. In this vein I would encourage the Celtic delegation who meet Uefa next month read aloud a transcript of La Marseillaise, which becomes a logical target if Uefa prosecute our club.
“I predict Uefa and the SPL will reprimand Celtic with a cease and desist-type warning which will include specific instructions to remove and ban ‘offenders’. Efforts will be made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which I expect will fail, but not before a few individuals are brought before the court.
“Neil Lennon, Jock Stein and since Fergus McCann, the club, have asked fans not to sing political songs. Many agreed but some will not waver, so it would be an act of vanity for lesser mortals to suggest restraint. The slow train-wreck will happen.”
A few weeks later I wrote:
“Singing Flower of Scotland will (correctly) never be criminalised but you can expect charges to be brought for expressing similar sentiment. Legally, this sounds like a reach by the SNP government, but it’s likely to be a few young football fans who carry the responsibility of establishing how the judiciary view this matter.
“While Celtic will never condone IRA chanting (or, apparently, try to mitigate it as inconsequential, as others did before them with illegal and prejudicial chanting) they have a responsibility to ensure positive parts of our Irish tradition, including the national anthem, the flag and other symbols of the club’s rich and diverse culture are defended.”
Since then:
Uefa and the SPL have reprimanded Celtic.
Efforts have been made to prosecute ‘offenders’, which mostly fail.
Despite pleas from Neil Lennon, or earlier from Jock Stein, some insist on signing political songs. As Jock and Neil were ignored it remains an act of vanity for lesser mortals to try to convince others to desist.
Charges have been brought for expressing sentiment similar to that in Flower of Scotland.
Celtic have not, should not and cannot try to mitigate IRA chanting or banners as inconsequential. It is not inconsequential, Jock Stein knew it a long time before the SNP government. Fill your boots on debating why it has consequences below, it’s a huge intellectual topic, you’ll enjoy it, then you’ll get bored of it and move on.
If you want the opportunity to have a Debating Society on this, there is space on the comments section, knock yourself out. I’ve been through the songs debate often enough to know some of our community feel it is incumbent upon them to sing IRA songs at football games. Pointing out the words of Jock Stein, or the inevitable conclusion to this singing, or how things have developed in Ireland, will not change this perspective.
That’s the thing about slow train wrecks, nothing can stop them. It’s more productive to plan on how to deal with the aftermath.
Congratulations to the Bucketeers who raised over £26k for the costs of mounting an appropriate legal defence to the Dam Square five. This is a stunning amount of money raised, which demonstrates the strength of feeling among the support.
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CQN Annual, get it while it’s hot:
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Massage in a brothel
hen1rik
16:31 on
28 November, 2013
Right serious ? Why is PL quick to condemn fans who sing political songs but not quick to comment on the corruption in our game with our governing body ?
Giving him, the benefit of the doubt.
Singing is self evident.
Corruption requires proof.
Dontbrattbakkinanger
15.27 28th November.
Aye you are right……He, like the Black shirts in Eire, preferred Nazism to Brit rule. Liek Singapore preferred Japanese rule to Imperial Britain…..only in the beginning.
Never liked his poetry either, yet he was a commuinist!!
Such a pardox and yet is it not true that extreme dogma breeds extreme violence?
He was right about Ireland and Scotland.
If GB have legitimate greivances about the law then time will tell and it will be changed but by politising sport. Celtic Park is not yet the Nou Camp or the old Les Corts and I hope it stays that way. May the only black shirts at Celtic Park be from Paisley.
Neil canamalar Lennon hunskelper extrordinaire
16:24 on
28 November, 2013
KDS is the site if its only football chat, they ban people for raising issues like politics or in fact anything that strays from football.
Cheers for that. I’ll give it a try.
RyanGauld of Dundee Utd, no not for me,look what happened to Riordion ,not the same player who came from hibs ,and this about neil lennon not being backed up by the board, that’s nonsense, he has been given a few quid over the yrs, but in my opinion he seems to sign the wrong players,and some of the youngsters at the club, are just wasting there talents, when January comes put yourselfs up for loans or transfers to other clubs,at least you will get a chance, under lennon no chance.
I can see Deirdre now Lorraine has gone
Does anyone think that present non striking squad will survive next season’s Euro Qualifiers.
I’m not getting into the ongoing debate of the banners as quoting that old adage “people in glass houses shouldnae through stones”.
In the 69/70’s I was a Jungle Green Brigadier there wisnae a rebel song I didnae know or sing, I was a “rebel without a cause”.
I still have a healthy collection of LP’s, Tapes and CD’s ranging from the Clancy’s through tae the Wolfe Tones including Kathleen Largey, Athenrye etc.
Couldnae tell you the last time I played or sung any of them, I am now a grey brigadier.
For those that say politics and sport don’t mix well I’ll leave you with this.
In a game against Red Star Belgrade on 13 May 1990, the then Yugoslav international Zvonimir Boban kicked a policeman in the face who was assaulting a Dynamo supporter after a riot had broken out in the stadium, this incident has been cited as the catalyst for the Balkan’s war and made Boban a nationalist icon in Croatia.
It also earned him a suspension from the Yugoslav national team causing him to miss the 1990 World Cup in Italy.
In January 2011the match (due to the incident) was named by CNN as one of “five football games that changed the world”.
As for Zvonimir he subsequently moved to AC Milan with whom he won four Serie A and one UEFA Champions League titles. He also captained the Croatia national team which won third place at the 1998 FIFA World Cup.
As I said and some on here say politics and sport don’t mix….as Robert Plant once said…”hmmmm makes me wonder”.
And as others may say so what has this to do with Celtic I ask you what role did Mayo-born Michael Davitt, Irish nationalist, social campaigner and founder of the Irish National League play in the early days of our club.
“On alien soil like yourself I am here;
I’ll take root and flourish, of that never fear;
And though I’ll be crossed sore and oft by the foes,
You’ll find me as hardy as Thistle or Rose;
If model is needed on your own pitch you’ll have it.”
Just skimmed through the first page and already I’m in despair.
So basically it’s OK to celebrate the part of your Irish culture and heritage just so long as it’s not the part that anyone else finds offensive?!
Armed resistance and oppression has been a part of Irish tradition since long before the present national flag or national anthem. When Henry II first invaded Irish soil in 1171 the local inhabitants lifted to hand anything that could be utilised to resist the occupation.
Now, the names of those who fought for freedom in the 12thC are long forgotten and scattered with the winds. Since that first invasion the majority of those involved in successive periods of armed resistance are remembered only by historians and family members apart from a few noticeable exceptions: Wolfe Tone, Emmet, Connolly, Pearse etc.
Periods of physical struggle in Ireland, which at the time were criticised by much of the local population, are now recalled with fondness, compassion and sentiment. The rebels of 1916 were ostracised and physically and verbally abused by Dubliners who now bask in the adulation afforded by foreign nationals because the queen of England deemed fit to lay a wreath to mark their passing.
In 1981 ten ordinary men, who for several years had lived in conditions that had been likened to the slums of Calcutta, decided that the only way that they could try to convince the British government and the establishment that they weren’t ‘ordinary criminals’ but in fact that their motives were political, was to embark upon a hunger strike. These men starved themselves to death because they were attempting to highlight a regime that was trying to criminalise them. That’s important and relevant.
The iconic image of Bobby Sands is now the most obvious, visible representation of resistance in Ireland. Despite his death being more than 30 years ago it remains the most poignant rememberance purely because it is the most recent. How many of those who are critical of the banner displayed by the GB would have been able to identify the Republicans I’ve previously mentioned? Would anyone from UEFA even have heard the name Michael Davitt?
The very name Bobby Sands is enough to have the bigots of Scotland apoplectic. Why? Because he is the contemporary version of armed resistance in Ireland.
Yet he is as synonymous with Ireland as the leprechaun and the shamrock. He, whether it’s popular or not, is as much a part of Irish culture as Daniel O’Donnell or Guinness.
And yet we are now encouraged to whitewash that from any personal expression of Irish heritage.
I am genuinely concerned at where this will stop.
A few years ago a woman sitting on a corporation bus on Glasgow’s Gallowgate was so ‘offended’ by a pub having green and white hoops painted on its outside walls that she contacted the council to complain. The owner received a subsequent letter notifying him of the woman’s ire.
He was given 14 days to re paint the pub or it would be closed down.
Everything about Celtic or Irish expression ‘offends’ people like the woman on the bus.
I’ve previously said that I rarely sings songs that could be deemed as political when I’m at the football these days but I did when I was younger. I didn’t stop because I thought that they were wrong or offensive. I certainly didn’t stop because ‘the war is over’. I mean what does that actually mean anyway?!
Most of the songs that I sang were about events that had happened decades or centuries before. I was singing in remeberance of past events/people. Those who choose to sing nowadays are simply doing what we did 20/30 years ago. Who am I to tell them that they’re wrong?
King Lubo
Hiya,Palomine..
Great tae greet ye..
Yep.. That is Eggzzctly wit Ah AM sayin’….
Neil, is Convinced that He Must Populate oor Middy wi… Facsimiles o’ Himsel.. and
why No.??
Fur he wiz a Success.. wizna He..??
Hmmmmmmmmm..
Anyway.. tae keep it simple.
You are,of course .. Correct.. when ye Mentiion that Whit we Need is anither Lubo..
God Bless the Name..
A rare Talent..
But, Like Henrik… Another Lubo tae be discovered ..is like
Finding a “B” Battery… in yer local Hardware Store..
They Jist Dinna Mak ’em .. Any Mair.
Nice chattin,pal,..
Always a Pleasure..
Kojo
Still,Laughin
Let’s pee in the corner ,lets pee on the spotlight
CultsBhoy loves being 1st forever & ever
16:22 on
28 November, 2013
derbyshirebhoy
Only as a means to balance the books.. It would appear
Its a dilemma for supporters and Board alike viz. what do we want Celtic to be? Is the extent of our ambition and our opportunities simply to win the SPFL each season and hopefully have enough in the squad to qualify for the Group Stages? Are we content with the style of football we employ to achieve this or do we want to see more flair week by week regardless that we may need to change for the CL? Without doubt I would guess Mc Kay or Higdon for example would produce for us though it is a different scenario to play for Celtic against packed defences than for another SPFL side. Kris Killen anyone? For the moment I think the coaching staff are caught between the two and not too clear what the priorities are.
What is certain is if we don’t get or develop someone to score goals or improve the play from our pedestrian approach soon the pressure will become greater and attendances will suffer and nothing to do with the Green Brigade.
timbhoy2
16:37 on
28 November, 2013
Name player that NL and not PL has signed.
Said it before. In a situation not unknown in football NL simply rakes what CE gives him.
Personally I don’t think NL will be here next season.
WallyWallace@16.35
Blackshirts in Eire???
Are you colour blind??
How did Uefa react to the huge banner at the Poland v Russia Match last year..’This is Russia’ commemorating a 17th century invasion of Poland?
This display came before and after running street battles in Warsaw between rival fans.
But don’t bratt bakk in anger, I heard you say
setting free the bears supports Resolution 12 & Oscar Knox
Actually I believe that they were Blueshirts.
I thought the double banner display the other night was very well thought out.Just who did it offend.No support for the IRA,just a protest about the disgraceful laws in this country.The William Wallace banner was very clever.A man the English branded a terrorist,so much so that they hung ,drew ,and quartered him.No problem to sing about this former terrorist.In fact Flower Of Scotland is now the official anthem of our football team.Just how portraying the absurdity of our new law is offensive is beyond my ken.The GB haters are already in full flow.Instead of asking the question why it is only Irish alleged terrorists that are viewed as offensiveIf the GB hoisted a banner of Nelson Mandela,a former convicted terrorist,would an eyebrow be raised?.Che Guevara flags I have seen regularly.Any complaints?.Just what is the difference in “The Roll Of Honor” and “Flower Of Scotland”.We all know the answer,one is Irish.
The GB were highlighting this anomaly(only in Scotland)in the law.Why is that wrong.People on here saying “It has no place in football”are wrong.This law only attacks football fans,so why should football fans not protest against it.Our club certainly dont.
I cannot abide “Rebel songs”being sung at the game.Not because I dislike them,only because they bore me.Just remember the outcome of the bigotfest at Ibrox,a few weeks ago,with the involvement of our armed forces.Sheer naked sectarianism,in full view of everyone,going unpunished.Yet displaying a very well thought out argument against a bill that all on here oppose,has the hand wringers going apoplectic.
This is an attack on everything we are.It can be put under any guise,but that is what it is.In a country that allows,and always has done,our streets to be blocked every summer by people openly spouting sectarian,bigoted bile,can find the singing of a song,offending none,other than the aforementioned bigots something is seriously wrong.
What I find truly amazing is in highlighting this in the clever way that the GB did,they are now being castigated by their own kind.
Only in Scotland.
quonno
That was my point.
I was sick and tired of everything, when I called you last night from Tesco’s
Sue Lawley Sue lawley… I feel Sue Lawley
The ants are my friends, they’re blowin’ in the wind
The only good thing you can say about Duffield is that he has great hair for them radio shows.
HT – it seems that we are singing from the same song sheet, as for Bobby Sands a recent youtube of the deid teams fans on the NO campaign had some uncouthed weans chanting “eff Bobby Sands he’s deid”, 32 years later and they still fear what he did.
Seeting free bears…
16.45 28th November.
I could’nt say blueshirts (aka Eion O’Duffy’s) my tongue would catch fire and well I do come from Glenburn so the Saints are the only blackshirts I like……
So many paradoxes and I hope you’ll forgive me
quonno
16:34 on 28 November, 2013
Granting a UEFA licence to old Rangers.
Longmuir’s bonus.
SFA allowing a club to investigate themselves
Campbell Ogilvie taking loans from a member club and not paying it back the president of the SFA who is there to look after every member club not just 1
Regan n co allowing a new club with no accounts to jump the queue in front of other clubs
The list goes on
Ooh aah Bangura
I said Ooh aah Bangura
Kojo
16:22 on
28 November, 2013
Hi Kojo
Pardon the interruption but as you’re talking fitba and I know you take an interest in the young bloods thought I’d interject with an observation I passed on another site about the under 20’s
.Just finished watching their recent win over Motherwell who true to form had 5 yellow cards. In fairness they tried to play on the deck and were simply outclassed.
I’ve mentioned Denny Johnstone before who seems to be developing apace and after coming on for Amido for the last 30mins bagged two goals .Amido himself bagged the first and showed some excellent touches throughout.
Atajic the more I seem him looks more and more that he could be a play-maker rather a striker though he can also score goals.Will be interesting to see if he gets more game time in the first team if there is no Euro football after Christmas.
As for Liam Henderson I believe there’s the makings of a really good midfielder with drive there. One perhaps who needs a bit more nurture perhaps at his age but one to look forward to.
By the way I do agree entirely about our midfield. Something has to change.
TurkeyBhoy
Pal.. Doncha Know that Wan Man’s Terrorist
is Anither Man’s Freedon Fighter?
Willie Wallace wiz a Hero.. in his Ain Country.. n an Outlaw..In Anither Country..
Heck..It is Always the Same old story..
God,Did a Number oan Us.. when He invented.. the Subjective and The Objective..
and we hiv bin Strugglin wi it.. Ever Since..
Wiz it Neitzsche who wrote …
“In the Coming Years.. there will be a Transposition of Values..
‘
Good .. Wull Be Bad.. And .. well.. Bad wull be Good..” or something,along thoe Lines.
And ye know sumpthin..
Neitzsche, wiz Right!
Kojo
Still,Laughiin
TT
As the song goes, “They feared you then, they fear you yet!”
My post wasn’t to antagonise or even to spark debate (most posters have had enough of it already!) I’m just concerned as to where this will all stop.
It’s easy to be offended when everything you see, you find offensive.
hamiltontim is praying for oscar
16:39 on 28 November, 2013
Very well written piece mate , you should take up teaching. :-))
Our enemies in this country are suffering because the club they supported has died , the will try every dirty trick in the book to try to kill us off too
oldtim67
13:52 on
28 November, 2013
Shuggiebhoy67
When is the right time to protest?pray tell.
HH
Any time and where,but not at Celtic Park,that’s a place for playing Football, or trying to play football.
I would agree with you if it were not a football matter.It most certainly is.So would you be ok if the protests against the bill took place at Pittodrie,Tannadice,etc.Just as long as its not at your club.
DerbyshireBhoy
Hiya, Mon Vieux…?
Nice tae Greet ye.
Yes.. Ah Agree wi Ye..oan several Points..
Not the Least is.. Aboot the Sorry State of Oor Mid Field..
It is quite.. Horrendous..
And..Yes.. Ah Hiv Noticed that .. Young Denny Johnstone is coming along rather Nicely..
And..
He has the PHYSICAL PRESENCE.. which Ah Crave ..in a Celtic Leader..
He wull only grow Stronger ,as he is Not Fully Grown. Yet..
Yes..Ah believe if Handled Correctly.. Denny Could be a Grand Addition tae oor First Eleven.
And.. Oan
Liam Henderson..as ye Know.. ma Pal..collie, keeps me abreast of Things..if ye don’t mind that Expression..
At whit is Going oan .. at Boys Town..
and collie says. awe the Coaches there agree that
Liam Henderson is the Pick of the Crop..
He is a Young Man.who could go Places.. He has it All.
Nice chatting Pal..
Always enjoy oor Interludes…oan Here.
Kojo
Still, Laughin
Derbyshirebhoy I watched the U19/20,s against Milan. I agree with you the players you mentioned have a great future in the game especially Liam Henderson-great prospect. Hail Hail Hebcelt
Ok last one a football related quiz question in three parts to get everyone back onto talking football and not politics and finance
And a sporting question.
And a rhetorical question
Ok here goes
1.
A. Which untouchable criminal said
“We chose Qatar for sporting and economic reasons”
B. What is his position i.e title ..considered to be etc.
C. How many workers have died building world cup stadia in Qatar so far. Plus or minus 100
Question 2
A. What sport had to change its branding from WWF to WWE ?
B. Is WWE a real sport with integrity or a rouse i.e entertainment disguised as sport to help rob the stupid ? I will accept an essay answer as well as a yes or no
C. Is it illegal ..punishable or forbidden to sing or display political sentiments at WWE events AND if it does not happen why is that ?
Rhetorical question.
If its wrong to buy drugs to stop exploitation of workers and to prevent strengthening criminal rings why should buying UEFA and FIFA tickets or TV shows be any different ?
Bonus question for those that have answered all questions correctly so far especially 1.c Are people with a genuine drug habit less dangerous than those with a football habit
HH
Dont know if anyone has mentioned it yet,but Saturdays banner at the Aberdeen game is now up for punishment.Hands up all the fans who thought that banner was offensive?.”
The best bit is,it was brought to the SFAs attention,by none other than STV!!!!!!!.A lot of fans did not even get the meaning of it.
“They fought and died for.their wee bit hill and glen”,a line from Flower Of Scotland,and an H above it.I am sure the hand wringers will agree it is shocking.
Hamiltontim@1639,
Cap doffed sir, that is a fine post, said more eloquently than i ever could more power to you, even roused me out of my lurking.
Not going to say to much on the banners, i personally thought they were a very very clever way of highlighting the hypocrisy of the OB at football act.
For years in this country we have been told that to have an Irish identity was bad enough never mind you even dare try to celebrate it, the establishment in this country has been that good at it they even have us fighting among ourselves.
It has been that ingrained into Scottish society that any form of celebrating Irish culture you are immediately deemed as a “persona non grata”.
It has taken years for the Irish diaspora in Scotland to feel confident enough to express our heritage and beliefs without being made to feel like we shouldn’t be here or that we should just “go home”.
The outcry from the great and the good makes me want to spew, where is the outcry when the Police are chapping doors in the early hours of the morning arresting 16 and 17 year olds for singing a song?
It is time for Lawell and the PLC to decide what they want, a sanatised support sitting on their hands,with only one tier of the stadium open.
No sitting at the back of the bus anymore.
gebhoy
Sorry above should read
A. Which untouchable criminalsaid
“We chose Qatar for political and economic reasons”
He changed his mind a week later …still the same answer
HH
HT
It’s a fraught issue, and not one I have the wherewithal to solve, so I apply a ‘living memory’ filter. Seems to me that when the last of those who grieved have gone, the matter has passed into history.
In the meantime it remains highly sensitive, and it profanes the memory of the dead to cause unnecessary pain to those who loved and lost them. With thousands lost over the decades of ‘The Troubles’, it will be some time yet before memory passes into history.
You can be right and wrong simultaneously. What’s right or arguable in principle can be wrong in practice, something the Zealot often struggles to square.
A little humanity can be very powerful, more so than any amount of proselytising.
hebcelt
17:12 on
28 November, 2013
I seem to remember after the Liverpool match some comparing Liam Henderson with Paul Mc Stay. Well I don’t think he’s that but he does remind me very much of David Hay. Think I’d settle for that.