God love Packie Bonner, spend “£20m to £30m to bring those quality players the fans are desperate for”.
There are two opposing world views: one where people call for unaffordable money [those figures would be]to be spent because fans of a football club are “desperate”, the other where people want football clubs to spend what they can afford.
The latter group remember football’s crash-and-liquidate days – and learned the lessons. The former also remember the crash-and-liquidate days, but they are impervious to lessons.
We can debate what the size of an affordable spend is, but a couple of parameters have to be observed:
If it increases the cost base to such an extent that a reversal on the field would plunge the club into financial disarray, it’s unaffordable.
Players need to be appropriate for the environment – with neighbouring clubs earning £100m each season from TV deals, only players of a certain profile will play for a club with a considerably smaller wage bill (and turnover).
We live in a time when Scots Steven Naismith went for £8.5m (1 goal in 9 starts) and Ross McCormack went for £11m. These are common values for this calibre of player. We all want Celtic to improve, but that will not be achieved by spending unsuitable or unaffordable money. Packie, think back to Valentine’s Day 2012 and add a dose of perspective.
Get better at scouting, get fitter, improve the coaching – and spend everything you can afford, not any more. That’s the model for Celtic.
898 Comments- Pages:
- «
- 1
- ...
- 12
- 13
- 14
- 15
- 16
- 17
- 18
- ...
- 24
- »
Paul 67 rightly gave the scandal rags a blootering last week for contriving a negative story re safe standing and Hillsboro.
Tomorrow Big Pete has an exclusive in The S**
Can he get any further detached from the support?
Beyond belief
Neganon 2
Pretty sure you’ll find that ALL the media are going to be hearing what CELTIC are going to do about this.
CELTIC taking Res 12 to UEFA and telling the world that they are doing it.
Good News?
BTW, that list you posted earlier as ‘evidence’ it was nothing of the sort. You can at least score Res 12 off it then and we can argue about the rest another day.
If you want see real ‘evidence’ you should wait until you see some of the work done by the Res 12 guys. Their efforts and their ability to get to the truth is just jaw dropping. A few weeks ago there were posters on here attacking them. Incredible!
And Paul was getting it tonight – a guy who had to have CCTV installed at his home as a direct consequence of putting his name out there.
The Rangers Media guys have woken up to the risks here. Big risks for them. There is panic in their ranks.
There is no stopping this now.
The national broadcaster is now having to respond.
The MSM silence is been forcibly broken and all of them will have to write about it or report on it.
They’ll even claim it as ‘exclusives.’
And all we’ll get to say is Neganon 2, YOU WERE WRONG.
Vivez les Quatre Resolutioners ( et leurs amis!)
Why can’t Lawwell use a Celtic media outlet,Celtic TV? I’m sure he is being blackmailed by the SMSM …allegedly
Meanwhile deep in the bowels of das Münchener Hofbräuhaus, a wee Spaniard can be heard above the shouts of ‘Prost’, and clashing Mässe of golden Bier, singing
“Ghaim forebba blowghing boo-bles”.
WC
Grateful thanks for my gift. Unexpected and greatly appreciated.
Bada Bing
Good news if we are finally breaking the silence.
Agree with u.
Should have been done on Celtic tv
Not that rag
I can totally understand why Lawwell would want to stick it to Keith Jackson and the Daily Record, but an exclusive for The Sun? Jesus. I only hope he’s got something spectacular to say that distracts us from the fact it’s in Murdoch’s rag. Reading on Twitter that he’s going to say something positive on Resolution 12. That might begin to rehabilitate big Pete in my eyes…. Won’t buy The Sun, but looking forward to seeing what he’s got to say…
Res 12 update here
https://mobile.twitter.com/Vandalgrease/status/730114485420228608?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
ELDIEGOBHOY
My pleasure I can assure you. Hope you enjoy!
best wishes
To those like me demanding thr club try for justice, this is it.
Don’t get lost with side issues, disputes, divisions.
We are the club, support unified is required.
Now we were asked for patience. The club are providing a lead.
No quibbles.
Resolution 12 guys a heartfelt thank you.
I have no love for fawkirk as the locals pronounce it even though 2 of our legends played for them.
This goes back tae the summer of 1961 when at a 5-a-side tournament at brockville we were involved in a brawl.
We met the home team in the semi-finals of the tournament and after Dunky McKay put us one ahead, Pat Crerand was sent off after a clash with lowry and mayhem ensued.
fawkirk equalised and then all hell broke loose, Mike Jackson and lowry were ordered off after trading punches, objects were thrown at “keeper” Billy McNeil and the Celtic bench.
One of our players attending the tourney tells of the constant and sustained sectarian abuse from lowry, brought to the club via ballymena utd, a vile bigot according to reports who refused at the last minute to play in a charity match (league select) upon hearing the benefactors were Roman Catholic.
In saying that though, should they prevail against the Hibbees I’d rather they play in the premiership than the knights’ templar.
Why the Sun?
Because it’s not the Record? Is that it? To annoy the Record, send them a message?
Highest circulation? Can’t be, if the interview had ‘reach’, everyone will pick it up anyway.
Why the Sun?
Will not click a link, can anyone give the gist of PL’s comments?
Aye very good. Just speak to CTV. This needs to reach a much wider audience than the relatively small numbers who partake of CTV.
Auldheid…
Lifted this of hunmedia, I would have linked it but couldn’t see the option available. I’ll catch your response to it tomorrow if you catch this post, as it’s kip time for me. Ps, sorry it’s a long read, just scroll by…
TheLawMan
Club Legend
3,422
11,538 posts
Gender:Male
Location:Glasgow
Posted 14 hours ago
Just as a preamble, I have said in the past on here that I have a number of acquaintances whom I met through Rangers over the years I was fortunate to have hospitality with the club. Over a period of 10+ years a small group of 9 of us kept close even after most of us had moved on to pastures new including moving abroad and down south.
Between us we have a huge professional and financial background and range from Self Employed small family businessman through to Audit partner and qualified lawyer. We often share emails, thoughts and views on all things Rangers and it’s fair to say that in the most we hold pretty similar opinions on a lot of things. 9 times out of 10, our thoughts and views are not aligned with the majority of our support but we offer them when asked without fear nor favour. Never was that more prevalent than back in 2011/12 when we could see exactly what was happening and I was sending out all the warning signals much to a lot of unhappy replies.
I thought it important to give this background as what im about to write has been shared by email between us all, checked and verified as standing up by people who have an advantage over the general Scottish football fan and I don’t mean that to sound demeaning in any respect, just to point out that checking information, looking at regulations and legal documents etc is what they have done most of their working life.
The recent report which claims that the SFA wrongly approved a licence for Rangers to play in Europe which was compiled by an Independent group (The Offshore Game) based on information supplied to them by Celtic supporters. The first thing to note is that, for once, I genuinely believe the author is independent and not a Celtic fan/Rangers hater. I believe however the evidence presented was tainted and hand-picked before sending it however I am about to prove why the report is wrong and why all the moon howling by Celtic fans on Resolution 12 is dead in the water.
THE ISSUE
In relation to the report there are 4 main accusations, which mirror the ones made constantly by Celtic fans, and Auldheid in particular, not forgetting John James though he falls into the first category:
1) As at 31st March 2011, Rangers had an overdue tax bill which meant the SFA should not issue a licence to play in Europe
2) As at 31st March 2011, Rangers claimed this bill was “a potential bill” instead of stating it was actually a bill which meant the SFA should not issue a licence to play in Europe
3) Even if the bill at 31st March was only “a potential bill” as at 30th June 2011, it had became a proper bill which meant the SFA should not issue a licence to play in Europe.
4) As at 30th June, Rangers declared that they had a bill but were waiting on a schedule of payments from HMRC, which meant the SFA should not issue a licence to play in Europe.
THE RULES
In order to understand each of the 4 accusations we first need to understand the actual rules they refer to which can be found here:
http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Tech/uefaorg/General/01/80/54/10/1805410_DOWNLOAD.pdf
In relation to the first 2 issues, Article 50 of the rules states:
Article 50 – No overdue payables towards employees and social/tax authorities
1 The licence applicant must prove that as at 31 March preceding the licence season it has no “OVERDUE PAYABLES” (as defined in Annex VIII) towards its employees as well as social/tax authorities as a result of contractual and legal obligations towards its employees that arose prior to the previous 31 December.
To understand what constitutes an “OVERDUE PAYABLE” we need to turn to Annex VIII as directed.
Annex VIII states:
ANNEX VIII: Notion of ‘overdue payables’
1. Payables are considered as overdue if they are not paid according to the agreed terms.
So to be crystal clear, a Social Tax is ONLY considered as “OVERDUE PAYABLE” if there is a debt owed to HMRC (or other tax authority) and that the terms of the amount due have been agreed then not met. Article 50 and 66(later) solely deal with overdue pyables.
To help understand if our club had a debt which met the above, we can use the evidence in The Offshore Game report. Here is the timeline of the evidence:
3rd March – Andrew Thornhill recommends to the Rangers Board that they “seek a settlement” with HMRC in relation to the Small Tax Case
21st March – A hand written note states that HMRC have agreed “IN PRINCIPLE” that the settlement seems the right thing to do. A decision which then needs to become a formal offer by HMRC and an agreement by the Club.
31st March – 1st disclosure due to SFA for licence by the Club. At this point, the Social Tax is NOT overdue as no formal agreement has been reached and no payment date set by HMRC. This means according to Clause Viii of UEFA guidelines they are not “overdue if not paid according to the agreed terms” I have no idea if Rangers disclosed them on the submission, however if they did, they would have done so without any formal disclosure requirement.
1st April – Rangers released their interim accounts confirming: “Discussions are continuing with HMRC to establish a resolution to the assessments raised.” This is in line with the evidence presented in the report.
Again to be clear. As at 31st March 2011, HMRC had not made an official agreement with Rangers nor set out the terms of which they wanted any money to be paid. According to UEFA own rules, the £2.83m was NOT an “OVERDUE PAYABLE” and therefore required no disclosure whatsoever as part of the licence process.
Therefore the evidence actually shows that Issue 1 and Issue 2 outlined above are false and that the licence requirements were fully met.
Moving onto the more contentious Issues 3 and 4. To understand if we broke any guidelines here, we need to refer to Article 66 which states:
Article 66 – No overdue payables towards employees and/or social/tax authorities – Enhanced
1 The licensee must prove that as at 30 June of the year in which the UEFA club competitions commence it has no overdue payables (as specified in Annex VIII) towards its employees and/or social/tax authorities (as defined in paragraphs 2 and 3 of Article 50) that arose prior to 30 June.
2 By the deadline and in the form communicated by the UEFA administration, the licensee must prepare and submit a declaration confirming the absence or existence of overdue payables towards employees and social/tax authorities.
4 The following information must be given, as a minimum, in respect of each overdue payable towards social/tax authorities, together with explanatory comment:
a) Name of the creditor;
b) Balance overdue as at 30 June, including the due date for each overdue element.
5 The declaration must be approved by management and this must be evidenced by way of a brief statement and signature on behalf of the executive body of the licensee.
In summary the above requires the same disclosures as 31st March but clarifies what you need to do in the circumstance that you do have an overdue payable and this is where the confusion really kicks on for the authors and Celtic fans complaining about it.
For understanding of our situation, here is the timeline between 1st April and 30th June as presented by the author of the report:
5th May – HMRC make a formal offer of settlement for the club to decide to pay or not and give the club 11 days to sign the offer(16th May) and a further 30 days after the signature to pay it(15th June). At this stage, this is still not an “overdue payable” according to UEFA rules. This letter also confirms that no bill was formally agreed prior to 31st March.
6th May – Craig Whyte takes over Rangers.
20th May – As Rangers, now under different ownership, failed to agree to the offer received on the 5th May sent to and agreed by the previous owners, HMRC issue Formal determinations to the value of the agreed amounts made by the previous Board. The amount is now an “overdue payable” according to UEFA rules and subject to disclosure for the first time.
6th June – MCR write to HMRC on behalf of the club asking HMRC to consider a payment schedule and to allow more time for the new owners to work out cashflow and working capital.
There is then no evidence of any replies from HMRC which is quite surprising given that other documents from HMRC which paint a “bad picture” seem readily available yet the 1 document which can prove beyond any doubt the situation at 30th June is missing.
30th June – Ken Olverman emails Craig Whyte to confirm that he is disclosing the “overdue payable” and commenting that they are waiting a schedule of payments from HMRC as per the letter dated 6th June.
CRUCIAL CLARIFICATION POINT
UEFA regulations do not forbid a club from having an overdue payable. UEFA regulations do not state that if you have an overdue payable, that you cannot get a licence. UEFA regulations simply state that if you have an overdue payable then under Article 66 section 4 that you must disclose the debt and state why its overdue. Ken Olvermans email is 100% consistent with this. Rangers disclosed their overdue payable. Rangers followed the regulations. The licence was issued.
MALAGA RULING
The report gets another aspect hugely wrong by referring to The Malaga Ruling. It states:
“The (Malaga) judgement confirmed that in order to meet the rules, a club must have written agreement in place to pay any outstanding tax liability” which is completely wrong.
The Malaga judgement confirmed that the “EUR 8,450,000 had to be considered as OVERDUE, because of the lack of any written agreement between Malaga and the tax authorities.” This ultimately means that as an OVERDUE amount, Malaga had a duty of disclosure under Pargaraph 4 of Article 66. It does NOT mean that they had to have a written agreement in place to meet the rules. It also does NOT mean they wouldnt have got a licence if properly disclosed. Malaga failed to disclose this amount completely and this is why they breached the rules. The overdue payable in itself was NOT a breach of the rules.
It is important to note at this stage that if any club has a written agreement with the tax authority then no disclosure is required at all. This does not change anything in relation to our situation, as we did not take that route. We disclosed it.
It is also even more important to note that in the case of Malaga, on the 30th June, they disclosed an overdue payable of 9.42m EURO(this was in addition to the undiscosed amount above) yet they were granted a licence by the RFEF (Spanish SFA) and the licence was rubber stamped by UEFA. Rangers fully disclosed an overdue payable of 3.4m EURO(35% of Malagas) yet some would have you believe the SFA should not have granted the initial licence. They use Malaga ruling (wrongly) when they want to and ignore it when it doesnt suit the agenda.
SO THERE WE HAVE IT
31st March – HMRC had not officially agreed the final bill and given a due date means no disclosure was required. Rangers may have actually have disclosed it incidentally, but it was not a requirement.
30th June – Rangers had to disclose the overdue payable and comment on the current position. They did this.
There is a further checkpoint at 30th September, however by this time, Rangers were out of Europe and have not had a licence since. Any noise around the 30th September is just nonsense.
THE OFFSHORE GAME
All of the above has been sent to the author, over various emails and he agreed it was “very thoughtful” and “considered”. A review was promised with the co-author however on Twitter yesterday, the account continued to reply to tweets on the subject with no sign of taking a step back and considering this game changer. A few of my acquaintances have taken to other forms of Social Media to ask questions of others with a lot of sweeping, blocking and deleting going on. Its funny that all of these people cry for these things to be out in the open yet when presented with credible evidence, they shrink into the tortoise shell.
We await a reply and correction from the author of the report unless evidence is hiding in the wings to disprove the position above. (tu)
UPDATE : The author has replied and accepted a number of points around other issues not listed above. There is ongoing dialogue at present and I will update once we reach a conclusion.
Winning Captians
Does the Celtic View not come out on a Wednesday ?
Why not make the announcement on both Celtic TV, in the view, and drop all their fans an email, as per I get daily from marketing
No need to use MSM
Put through our own fans outlets, someone would need to pick up on it
EDB
All rags use social media to source their news
There is not one sports journalist in msm Scotland whom we should be giving this interview to
They would pick it up and use it as they do with all their news now
Winning captains.
I have never questioned the good,work of the requisitioners. And if Paul,is,indeed subject to the usual bullying and intimidation (a way of life in racist Scotland) then I am sorry for him.
If it’s true (and I will wait until I understand what Celtic are,doing) then great. I will love to,be proven wrong. Love it.
But in my heart I will know it’s the pressure that the support brought on them that forced it. We forced it. And that’s still a disgrace.
But using the sun eh? Classy.
STRINGER BELL
It’s not just them – it’s all the media. Think they are jumping the gun and going a day early as they figure that the Record will be in a blind panic over this. Hell they might even ignore it.
And Miss Karma is calling…what a tease she’s been these last few weeks!
Much later than advertised, Super Bowl halftime show now on at the Boleyn, with supporters saying, Fack your last bus ‘ome. We’re stayin’ ‘ere!
Doesn’t Welsh legend Big Bad John write for the sun.
NegAnon2,
Hi dude.
I’m glad that things are going well in your life. It is to your great credit that you are so strong in your defence of Celtic.
Again, I will introduce another Dimension. We are indeed in the End Times.
Everything is being switched around, Satan is Running amok and going bat shit crazy and also growing in power because of Western Materialism, knocking Belief of God way behind Entertainments.
There is only one way to get a challenging team out there, and I mean in Europe.
And that is by Growing our Own Players.
It is, as it always is. A Cliffhanger.
God is the Creator – he is outwith all of this. ;))
Keep up the Pressure.
I was Glad to see ole Jobo decide to go game by game. Powerful.
COWIEBHOY
Preaching to the converted. And that has a vey low circulation. If they did this there would be criticism from many (including me) that they were being half hearted.
This is mainstream.
Big news. The Good News you have been waiting for.
BTW you have an appointment a week on Sunday to watch a certain match with a baldie fella, a couple of old geezers and me.
I am assuming that giving the interview to a rival is a sort of revenge for the Record spinning the Hillsborough story. However whether that was a clever move or not remains to be seen.
The important thing for me is the content of the interview. There is no doubt that the Resolutioners got it tight here at times and if this interview reveals good news, I sincerely hope that those who were having a go, put their hands up and apologise.
Can’t wait to get the content of interview.
sipsini on 10th May 2016 10:46 pm
Auldheid…
Lifted this of hunmedia, I would have linked it but couldn’t see the option available. I’ll catch your response to it tomorrow if you catch this post, as it’s kip time for me. Ps, sorry it’s a long read, just scroll by…
*level 5 working over time here, wee bit too late though.
hi Petec. When I look around I think you may be right my friend. Keep the faith.
Do any of you think the record would print what is being said tomorrow??
Carlton Cole got a great ovation!
Canalamar,Auldheid and the other guys,well done and many thanks HH
Funny the power that Celtic supporters have at season book renewal time eh?
Just think if we could wield that power over the full season………
WC
I am unaware of Celtic having any game a week on Sunday ?
Therefore will be watching nothing – may join in the Co though :-))
Satan is Running amok and going bat shit crazy
Petec, I often read your stuff but never comment, I doubt that you meant it to be funny, but when I read above I cracked up. I have still tears in my eyes from laughing.
FFS My wife thinks I’ve lost the plot completely. Only on CQN
TONTINE TIM….
Do you have elephant DNA?
I can hardly remember last week ;)
Deffo kip time. HH
Amazing! Saw her first game at the Boleyn in 1934, 102 years old now, some woman up there in the stand in her West Ham tap! Supporter! ( No, not incase she falls!).
Cowiebhoy – DOC wil update you. And you will like the match. I’m going for a 2-1 win to Celtic.
Tontime Tim
My Auld Da, has a severe dislike for Fawkirk
Not sure if it because my Maw is from there :-)
He states they do not clap or cheer, instead stamp their feet ( talking aboot that old Brockville place)
Something to do with crunching knuckles – I think :-))
Mabel Arnold her name is.
And she’s a mere 100 years old!
Marvelous!
NegAnon2 on 10th May 2016 10:56 pm
hi Petec. When I look around I think you may be right my friend. Keep the faith.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Let’s wait and see what Peter says.
I hope you are applauding him tomorrow m8ty. ;))
I know nothing, the optimism just gets me going sometimes. :D
Hold, Hold, Hold……..
CLOGHER CELT on 10TH MAY 2016 6:34 PM
Just reading back i didn’t read RK book so wasn’t aware he declined
But correct it would cause our CEO a few sleepless nights
Im not sure he is right for us – but he does have the personality to stand his ground with our CEO
Example would Carlton Cole have signed for Celtic if RK was manager – no I don’t think so either
67ECW